Thrash vs NWOBHM?

[H.P. Lovecraft]

In terms of pure technicality, I suppose so. But all Dave Mustaine's soloing essentially boils down to is running up and down the scales diatonically at a high BPM rate. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't seem to stack up to the fretboard fireworks Iommi has demonstrated himself capable of at a moment's notice. He pinched out stuff in his days with Mythology that would make Jeff Beck or Henry Vestine green with envy. Then of course his best soloing with Sabbath? It's like he's shitting and breathing good melodies and tasteful phrasing. Even the most technically gifted guitar players around, like Blackmore make note of the fact that running scales quickly isn't anywhere close to all technical ability boils down to.

 

[Halberd3]

It's infantine and obnoxious. My apologies then, you'd done it for several messages, so I was beginning to think you actually thought his name was Tommy. Autocorrect is certainly a pain that way. Never Say Die along with Technical Ecstasy is easily the most maligned album of Sabbath's golden years (basically all of the seventies and eighties). I still find it a quality album though, it's just not up to the standards of the previous albums, which, aside from Technical Ecstasy, were all stone cold classic masterpieces.

We both agree there man. I personally thought their first, Master of Reality, Vol.4, SBS, and Sabotage were their best. I loved Paranoid too, but to me it never really did it for me as much as the others. In regards to the NWOBHM, I think it had a perfect balance of melody and rhythm. Sometimes with thrash I hear too much rhythm to the point I feel it loses what would make it stand out.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

You'll get no quarrel from me there, though I would add Paranoid to the batch of their best. And perhaps Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules as well. The appeal to thrash for me has always been it's technical acumen and it's unadulterated viciousness of soundscape. When I hear Steve Souza wail into The Toxic Waltz, or Kerry King jump into a demonic, rapid fire lead, it's just such a charge of power and vileness. But, yeah, the NWOBHM is a great balance of the rhythmic and melodic parts of it all, and it doesn't always shy away from being technical, just feast your eyes on Iron Maiden's early output.

 

[Halberd3]

You'll get no quarrel from me there, though I would add Paranoid to the batch of their best. And perhaps Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules as well. The appeal to thrash for me has always been it's technical acumen and it's unadulterated viciousness of soundscape. When I hear Steve Souza wail into The Toxic Waltz, or Kerry King jump into a demonic, rapid fire lead, it's just such a charge of power and vileness. But, yeah, the NWOBHM is a great balance of the rhythmic and melodic parts of it all, and it doesn't always shy away from being technical, just feast your eyes on Iron Maiden's early output.

Oh yes! Iron Maiden's early output makes my ears beg for more. And yes, Heaven and Hell, and Mob Rules were amazing, by any standard to me they were amazing. Even Dehumanizer was pretty damn good and just made me wonder why Dio didn't stay in Sabbath. To me, it felt he belonged there. Or both in his own band and in Sabbath. Thrash gets that viciousness from the American punk rock scene (aka Hardcore for dumbasses today, no offense if you like calling it that. To me I just saw it as Americanized punk rock. Never saw why it was called hardcore). Thrash is actually a punk rock term, and the drumming. That fast tempo 200bpm shit is actually derived from Punk rock. If have to suggest punk rock to you and the inspirations there. I say listen to Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Adolescents, F.E.A.R, Descendents, Agnostic Front, and Bad Brains to get the gist of where it comes from. I think Thrash is truly the second best Heavy Metal subgenre. But it's unappealing aspects lies in repetition to the point of no musical evolution and burnouts. I actually liked it when Megadeth started doing more traditional heavy metal. It showed some evolution and he doesn't have to thrash 24/7 to make good music.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Oh yes! Iron Maiden's early output makes my ears beg for more. And yes, Heaven and Hell, and Mob Rules were amazing, by any standard to me they were amazing. Even Dehumanizer was pretty damn good and just made me wonder why Dio didn't stay in Sabbath. To me, it felt he belonged there. Or both in his own band and in Sabbath. Thrash gets that viciousness from the American punk rock scene (aka Hardcore for dumbasses today, no offense if you like calling it that. To me I just saw it as Americanized punk rock. Never saw why it was called hardcore). Thrash is actually a punk rock term, and the drumming. That fast tempo 200bpm shit is actually derived from Punk rock. If have to suggest punk rock to you and the inspirations there. I say listen to Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Adolescents, F.E.A.R, Descendents, Agnostic Front, and Bad Brains to get the gist of where it comes from. I think Thrash is truly the second best Heavy Metal subgenre. But it's unappealing aspects lies in repetition to the point of no musical evolution and burnouts. I actually liked it when Megadeth started doing more traditional heavy metal. It showed some evolution and he doesn't have to thrash 24/7 to make good music.

Dio and Ozzy are my favorites when it comes to Sabbath's vocals, though I enjoyed Glenn Hughes' and Tony Martin's tenures as well. I'm aware of thrash's American hardcore punk lineage, from bands like Minor Threat and such. Not sure what you mean by Americanized punk rock seeing as punk rock started in America to begin with. I'm a fan of all those bands, and have been for years. Thrash comes in enough different packages that I'm fine with it, whether it's Sodom's black metal influenced blitzkrieg, Slayer's satanic hellstorm, Exodus' street gang cut throat rage, or Megadeth's technical thunder bomb, it's varied enough for me.

 

[Halberd3]

Dio and Ozzy are my favorites when it comes to Sabbath's vocals, though I enjoyed Glenn Hughes' and Tony Martin's tenures as well. I'm aware of thrash's American hardcore punk lineage, from bands like Minor Threat and such. Not sure what you mean by Americanized punk rock seeing as punk rock started in America to begin with. I'm a fan of all those bands, and have been for years. Thrash comes in enough different packages that I'm fine with it, whether it's Sodom's black metal influenced blitzkrieg, Slayer's satanic hellstorm, Exodus' street gang cut throat rage, or Megadeth's technical thunder bomb, it's varied enough for me.

Hey I gotta ask. If this were a band name. What do you think it'd sound like it should be? Adrenaholic? And yeah I notice the style is variable. Personally I think slayer, Exodus, and Megadeth have the best style

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Hey I gotta ask. If this were a band name. What do you think it'd sound like it should be? Adrenaholic? And yeah I notice the style is variable. Personally I think slayer, Exodus, and Megadeth have the best style

Sounds a bit goofy to me honestly, but maybe it could work if the band was tongue-in-cheek enough about itself.

 

[Halberd3]

Sounds a bit goofy to me honestly, but maybe it could work if the band was tongue-in-cheek enough about itself.

As in the music is pure speed and adrenaline?

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

As in the music is pure speed and adrenaline?

Maybe.

 

[Halberd3]

So in regards to balance between rhythm and melody. Have you heard thrash metal bands that have found a good balance between their rhythms and melodies? And didn't exactly burnout? The most I can think of is...well shit maybe Slayer on South of Heaven and Seasons in the Abyss.

 

[Talos of Atmora]

Overkill and Testament come to mind.

 

[Halberd3]

Overkill and Testament come to mind.

And because of that they're still around making good albums.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

So in regards to balance between rhythm and melody. Have you heard thrash metal bands that have found a good balance between their rhythms and melodies? And didn't exactly burnout? The most I can think of is...well shit maybe Slayer on South of Heaven and Seasons in the Abyss.

Artillery who're like a hybrid of thrash and trad metal perhaps.

 

[Wyvern]

MOD ADVISORY

A warn to everyone, let's keep this civilized.

If a post hurts anyone sensibility, please use the PM to clarify the dispute.
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On topic: to me you cannot compare. Each sub-genre appeal different to the listener. And consider NWOBHM a sub-genre is VERY relative, as an era it comprises bands from Def Leppard to Venom, Saracen to Pariah, so it is not a proper sub-genre like trash can be accommodated.

If we put the UK bands that made a sound between 1979 and 1985 (roughly) as traditional metal, yeah I do prefer it more than thrash. I guess a matter of age and how I started in metal (Iron Maiden)

 

[Halberd3]

Well another thing I've reckoned. Coming from my dad's point of view (whom he is more of punk rocker more than a metalhead) he's stated that the issues he's had with traditional heavy metal was it being overproduced and guitar spammed. It displayed too much technicality and it wasn't simple enough to get its point across, like he went to see Black Sabbath live in 1981 with his brother. People were just sitting around doing really nothing. Maybe it's personal tastes and he'd rather be moshing insanely and stage diving and making the crowd alive. In some cases I may agree there. But that technicality is something to look at and just gaze on at powerful some of that stuff. Don't get me wrong. I love thrash metal and I love simplicity too. But sometimes some things can be too simple to the point it can boring quicker and literally makes one think "Is this all they can really do?" Or they may just be too predictable. But then again that can go both ways.

 

[CiG]

Your dad sounds like a fool.

 

[Halberd3]

Your dad sounds like a fool.

I know. I think he is sometimes.

 

[CiG]

We all are sometimes.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Musicians actually being capable with their instruments, how dare they!

 

[Halberd3]

Musicians actually being capable with their instruments, how dare they!

I know right. He can be dumb sometimes. But maybe simple is all he needs.