What killed the NWOBHM?

[Halberd3]

Well this is something I've thought about for a while. Looked at some sights and even talked with some people who were around when the scene was bright. It's a giant mixed bag. Ranging from mainstream success, the extreme metal blowout, the fact a lot of bands didn't get mainstream success, the suckiness of a lot of bands, and maybe the scene being saturated. There's a lot to go by here, but I'm pretty sure a lot of you have your own thoughts and opinions. What do you think killed the NWOBHM?

 

[Talos of Atmora]

Well, oversaturation and lack of commercial success are examples of why the movement ended. When it came to lack of commercial success, it happened to a lot of great bands. Diamond Head, Tygers of Pan Tang, Tokyo Blade, Quartz, Raven, Samson, Blitzkrieg, Tank, Saxon (very well-known underground but not in the mainstream), Grim Reaper, etc. I think what had a lot to do with the success of some bands like Iron Maiden, Motorhead and Def Leppard (to name a couple) was they either went commercial in just the right way (Pyromania in 1983 and Judas Priest with British Steel), stuck to their guns and became the definitive band of the movement (Iron Maiden), or they helped revolutionize metal a bit before the '80s (Motorhead with their eclectic, ever-modifying musical influence and crossover appeal between punk and metal fans. Also, Judas Priest).

The trends that occur with many of the bands I previously listed is that they eventually stopped making albums after a few well-regarded releases and faded into obscurity (Grim Reaper, Quartz, Angel Witch, Satan, Blitzkrieg, Pagan Altar, Witchfinder General etc.) or they end up watering down their sound, destroying their credibility and whatever fanbase they previously possessed (Diamond Head's Canterbury, Raven's Stay Hard, Tygers of Pan Tang's Crazy Nights, Tokyo Blade's Blackhearts and Jaded Spades and many more). Some made comebacks like Raven did and some like Saxon and Satan (in the form of Pariah) went well into the '90s and the '00s and some just stayed underground and made their own success like Venom and Saxon. Some even made new albums in this decade after decades of silence. Regardless, the movement was dead long after.

I also think that when bands out of the U.K. like Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Megadeth, Riot, Jag Panzer, Helstar, Liege Lord, Omen, Helloween, Sodom, Death, Morbid Angel, Possessed, Coroner, Metallica, Saint Vitus, Candlemass, Pentagram, Trouble, etc. were inspired and began making further modifications to the revolutionary sound of the NWOBHM (the virtuosity of '70s rock and metal mixed with punk's velocity and attitude), that's when power metal, black metal, thrash metal, death metal and doom metal were created, the "NWOBHM" label lost relevance and became a revered accolade to that old guard who made a monumental change in rock music and provided an origin for many of the other genres to be created.

 

[Halberd3]

Well, oversaturation and lack of commercial success are examples of why the movement ended. When it came to lack of commercial success, it happened to a lot of great bands. Diamond Head, Tygers of Pan Tang, Tokyo Blade, Quartz, Raven, Samson, Blitzkrieg, Tank, Saxon (very well-known underground but not in the mainstream), Grim Reaper, etc. I think what had a lot to do with the success of some bands like Iron Maiden, Motorhead and Def Leppard (to name a couple) was they either went commercial in just the right way (Pyromania in 1983 and Judas Priest with British Steel), stuck to their guns and became the definitive band of the movement (Iron Maiden), or they helped revolutionize metal a bit before the '80s (Motorhead with their eclectic, ever-modifying musical influence and crossover appeal between punk and metal fans. Also, Judas Priest).

The trends that occur with many of the bands I previously listed is that they eventually stopped making albums after a few well-regarded releases and faded into obscurity (Grim Reaper, Quartz, Angel Witch, Satan, Blitzkrieg, Pagan Altar, Witchfinder General etc.) or they end up watering down their sound, destroying their credibility and whatever fanbase they previously possessed (Diamond Head's Canterbury, Raven's Stay Hard, Tygers of Pan Tang's Crazy Nights, Tokyo Blade's Blackhearts and Jaded Spades and many more). Some made comebacks like Raven did and some like Saxon and Satan (in the form of Pariah) went well into the '90s and the '00s and some just stayed underground and made their own success like Venom and Saxon. Some even made new albums in this decade after decades of silence. Regardless, the movement was dead long after.

I also think that when bands out of the U.K. like Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Megadeth, Riot, Jag Panzer, Helstar, Liege Lord, Omen, Helloween, Sodom, Death, Morbid Angel, Possessed, Coroner, Metallica, Saint Vitus, Candlemass, Pentagram, Trouble, etc. were inspired and began making further modifications to the revolutionary sound of the NWOBHM (the virtuosity of '70s rock and metal mixed with punk's velocity and attitude), that's when power metal, black metal, thrash metal, death metal and doom metal were created, the "NWOBHM" label lost relevance and became a revered accolade to that old guard who made a monumental change in rock music and provided an origin for many of the other genres to be created.

Is it good or uncreative when bands go back in time and try to recapture the magic of the nwobhm?

 

[CiG]

It's not very creative but it can be very good.

 

[Halberd3]

Well, oversaturation and lack of commercial success are examples of why the movement ended. When it came to lack of commercial success, it happened to a lot of great bands. Diamond Head, Tygers of Pan Tang, Tokyo Blade, Quartz, Raven, Samson, Blitzkrieg, Tank, Saxon (very well-known underground but not in the mainstream), Grim Reaper, etc. I think what had a lot to do with the success of some bands like Iron Maiden, Motorhead and Def Leppard (to name a couple) was they either went commercial in just the right way (Pyromania in 1983 and Judas Priest with British Steel), stuck to their guns and became the definitive band of the movement (Iron Maiden), or they helped revolutionize metal a bit before the '80s (Motorhead with their eclectic, ever-modifying musical influence and crossover appeal between punk and metal fans. Also, Judas Priest).

The trends that occur with many of the bands I previously listed is that they eventually stopped making albums after a few well-regarded releases and faded into obscurity (Grim Reaper, Quartz, Angel Witch, Satan, Blitzkrieg, Pagan Altar, Witchfinder General etc.) or they end up watering down their sound, destroying their credibility and whatever fanbase they previously possessed (Diamond Head's Canterbury, Raven's Stay Hard, Tygers of Pan Tang's Crazy Nights, Tokyo Blade's Blackhearts and Jaded Spades and many more). Some made comebacks like Raven did and some like Saxon and Satan (in the form of Pariah) went well into the '90s and the '00s and some just stayed underground and made their own success like Venom and Saxon. Some even made new albums in this decade after decades of silence. Regardless, the movement was dead long after.

I also think that when bands out of the U.K. like Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Megadeth, Riot, Jag Panzer, Helstar, Liege Lord, Omen, Helloween, Sodom, Death, Morbid Angel, Possessed, Coroner, Metallica, Saint Vitus, Candlemass, Pentagram, Trouble, etc. were inspired and began making further modifications to the revolutionary sound of the NWOBHM (the virtuosity of '70s rock and metal mixed with punk's velocity and attitude), that's when power metal, black metal, thrash metal, death metal and doom metal were created, the "NWOBHM" label lost relevance and became a revered accolade to that old guard who made a monumental change in rock music and provided an origin for many of the other genres to be created.

Do you think the nwobhm was more over saturated than thrash was by 1989 or so?

 

[Bloopy]

Perhaps blame the passing of time. I've noticed how much the scene here has changed given I've been in the same place for nearly 10 years. The band members and their friends grow older, start families, move away, travel the world, or just grow weary of live gigs with ever-increasing drink prices. Now many of them only come out to see their friends play, and newcomers playing the same subgenre of metal get surprisingly little support. So it's easy to see how some styles of music get left behind.

 

[Talos of Atmora]

Do you think the nwobhm was more over saturated than thrash was by 1989 or so?

I'd probably argue that, yes. Mostly due to the thrash genre's explosion in popularity being so extensive that the genre damn near tapped itself out by 1993. Seriously, its Renaissance period lasted from 1983 to 1993. Ten years. If it was saturated by the time its popular phase concluded, it was a damn good run.

 

[Halberd3]

I'd probably argue that, yes. Mostly due to the thrash genre's explosion in popularity being so extensive that the genre damn near tapped itself out by 1993. Seriously, its Renaissance period lasted from 1983 to 1993. Ten years. If it was saturated by the time its popular phase concluded, it was a damn good run.

I messaged my uncle on that to confirm it. He said yes, it definitely was way more over saturated compared to the stuff he heard around 1982. Of course he said it was fine. But at some point he kinda got tired of it and said that while some bands were saying death to posers, he felt a lot of them were posers themselves. They had good influences but felt some were trying too hard to be extreme and it didn't work out.

 

[Talos of Atmora]

I messaged my uncle on that to confirm it. He said yes, it definitely was way more over saturated compared to the stuff he heard around 1982. Of course he said it was fine. But at some point he kinda got tired of it and said that while some bands were saying death to posers, he felt a lot of them were posers themselves. They had good influences but felt some were trying too hard to be extreme and it didn't work out.

Metal fando-I mean...war...war never changes.

 

[Halberd3]

Metal fando-I mean...war...war never changes.

Hahahah Lol. My uncle isn't big on metal anymore as much as much as he was around 1978. Back then he was all into Sabbath and Purple. Even heard a bit of the nwobhm. Said a lot of those bands had some good influences. But thrash, he liked it in it's initial incarnation. After a while he said it became too damn much in an extreme metal arms race of people trying to out extreme the other guy.

 

[Talos of Atmora]

Hahahah Lol. My uncle isn't big on metal anymore as much as much as he was around 1978. Back then he was all into Sabbath and Purple. Even heard a bit of the nwobhm. Said a lot of those bands had some good influences. But thrash, he liked it in it's initial incarnation. After a while he said it became too damn much in an extreme metal arms race of people trying to out extreme the other guy.

Was he referring to bands like Kreator, Sodom, Morbid Saint, Dark Angel, Sadus, etc.?

 

[Halberd3]

Was he referring to bands like Kreator, Sodom, Morbid Saint, Dark Angel, Sadus, etc.?

I think he was. He doesn't mind Kreator. But the other stuff. Yeah

 

[Halberd3]

And I think he was also referring to Death and Black metal as well.

 

[Halberd3]

Was he referring to bands like Kreator, Sodom, Morbid Saint, Dark Angel, Sadus, etc.?

Any thoughts on that? Think he's right in anyway?

 

[Talos of Atmora]

Any thoughts on that? Think he's right in anyway?

About his "extreme metal arms race" remark? Yes and no. While the drive for brutality lead to revolutionary stuff, you still need composition and songwriting. Something that some bands did have low on their list of priorities for shock value (Gaahl-era Gorgoroth, anyone?). Some of it could just be his tastes though and that's fine.

 

[Halberd3]

About his "extreme metal arms race" remark? Yes and no. While the drive for brutality lead to revolutionary stuff, you still need composition and songwriting. Something that some bands did have low on their list of priorities for shock value (Gaahl-era Gorgoroth, anyone?). Some of it could just be his tastes though and that's fine.

Ah I see. Yeah I think some of it is his tastes. Maybe it reflects back on me in a way. I could say that oversaturation played a part in killing thrash in the 90's. In fact it'd be interesting to start a thread on what killed thrash in the 90's.

 

[Talos of Atmora]

In fact it'd be interesting to start a thread on what killed thrash in the 90's.

It being perceived as a tired genre without the newly-discovered potential of death and black metal at that point in time? Believing that it had been somewhat "perfected" after releases from bands like Voivod, Anacrusis, Megadeth, Forbidden, etc.? Metal's overall popularity declining after grunge?

 

[Halberd3]

It being perceived as a tired genre without the newly-discovered potential of death and black metal at that point in time? Believing that it had been somewhat "perfected" after releases from bands like Voivod, Anacrusis, Megadeth, Forbidden, etc.? Metal's overall popularity declining after grunge?

Probably all three. Yeah I think they perfected the formula. And grunge pretty shot everything down. But it didn't kill groove metal (the bastard child of thrash)

 

[Halberd3]

It being perceived as a tired genre without the newly-discovered potential of death and black metal at that point in time? Believing that it had been somewhat "perfected" after releases from bands like Voivod, Anacrusis, Megadeth, Forbidden, etc.? Metal's overall popularity declining after grunge?

I should go as far as to ask. What makes thrash metal different than traditional heavy metal really? Is it the riffs? Drumming? Rhythm? Distortion?

 

[Talos of Atmora]

Is it the riffs?

Yeah.