Viking mythology and all that goes with it

[Shealladh]

The Nibelungenliad is loosely based on the Volsung sagas, or is at least the later, southern Germanic version of them. The various sagas make up a good portion (at least in my copy) of the Poetic Edda, but for a good overview of them, I'd probably recommend Gripisspa, Reginsmal, Fafnismal, and Sigrdrifumal. Those really only cover a portion of the story, and not necessarily the same parts as are in the Nibelungenliad, but are the "beginning" of the story in the Nordic version.

Thanks. I thought there would be more to the story, or at least changes as there always is.

One of my favourites is Jason and the Argonauts, they completely missed the taming of the Bull in the '50's movie. I wish they'd remake that one.

Thanks again, I'll look them up Bates.

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

Thanks. I thought there would be more to the story, or at least changes as there always is.

One of my favourites is Jason and the Argonauts, they completely missed the taming of the Bull in the '50's movie. I wish they'd remake that one.

Thanks again, I'll look them up Bates.

Ive seen a version of Jason and the Argonauts, but i dont know what year its been made, nor the title in english, but in french the title was Jason et la toison d'or. when he goes to fight the bull, he doesnt tame it but tire it until it fall down under its heavy weight. I liked that version, although when Jason and his new conquered wife marry at the end and the movie ends there... i mean... hes supposed to abandon her on his way home and her to take revenge. I just dont rememember her name suddenly. anyway.

 

[Bates]

If it's the one that came out in 2000, it was also called Jason and The Argonauts, at least in the US. I heard it was Jason and The Golden Fleece in the UK tho, so I'm not sure what it would be down in Oz.

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

its that one Bates, but since ive seen it on TV, in french, etc etc.. well...
but yeah. i thought it has been made earlier than 2000, the colors and stuff didnt looked like it was that recent. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0217579/

 

[Shealladh]

Ive seen a version of Jason and the Argonauts, but i dont know what year its been made, nor the title in english, but in french the title was Jason et la toison d'or. when he goes to fight the bull, he doesnt tame it but tire it until it fall down under its heavy weight. I liked that version, although when Jason and his new conquered wife marry at the end and the movie ends there... i mean... hes supposed to abandon her on his way home and her to take revenge. I just dont rememember her name suddenly. anyway.

Cool, I never knew there was a remake. I'll have to have a search for this one, as for the french if it was made by french I'll watch it with subtitles. I'm no fan with remakes or translated version, they always change something.

Come to think of it, there was mention of a tv two part movie, but never seen it advertised so took it for gossip

Is there any other movies that would be improved by a remake, or even if you have a favourite that hasn't been made yet?

I would like to see Ulysses and his grand journey, the only one I've seen is a cartoon about 20 years ago.

Book conversions;

Earthsea, the anime version was way way off and deserves an english led movie with that one being forgotten.

Katherine Kerr's Dragonsong etc.
Terry Brook's Shannarra series, I prefer the Scions onwards, ie. books 4-7, now that would make Lord of the Rings seem tame.

Margaret Weis: Darksword trilogy.

As for History movies, I think there is many great unmade film for the future and hopefully someone will sit down and make a good conversion of "real" history mixed with a bit of fantasy or filling in the gaps;

Eric the Red and his arctic voyages
Mercia and the inner kingdom of old england
Gaels being thwarted by the geece at the temple in Athens where the city was saved. But also a good story based around the great achievments made by the gaels as well as more Viking sags.

I'm a 50/50 mix of real history and fantasy stories. Yet I think the bog action blockbusters or sad american humour rip-offs are FAR TOO common for my liking. So it just makes me save my money and spend it on art or books

Maybe I just need to get into Uni, finish my degree and then move to northern Europe. It seems that I'm missing out on so much culture there. We're so busy working here downunder that we forget that there's a world around our big island

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

no, the movie was english, just the version that i saw on tv was translated. my english wasnt so good at that time too.. it might have been the serie in 2 parts but i saw it in 1...

Id like to see Dan Simmons' Hyperion and Endymion taken to the screen. you were talking about Lord of the Ring seeming tamed? pfft!

 

[Shealladh]

no, the movie was english, just the version that i saw on tv was translated. my english wasnt so good at that time too.. it might have been the serie in 2 parts but i saw it in 1...

okay, cool. Definately looking for it, if you find a link to somewhere that could speed up the process of tracking it down?

Id like to see Dan Simmons' Hyperion and Endymion taken to the screen.

What's this one about?

You were talking about Lord of the Ring seeming tamed? pfft!

Not saying it was tame, just I thought it was the best example of how Shannarra could be brought to the screen, yet it has 4 major parts plus the original 3.

Personally I thought it was the best thing I read and LR touched a nice cord, yet I still like the others more.

 

[Tyra]

Shealladh, I'm sorry for the lack of respone - my whole computer has crashed, so I've been wirelessless for a while. Good thing we have Bates!
It's actually interesting to me, this whole thread, since I've been whacking away at the metalurgical aspects of the Story of the Ring. I've compared several versions of it, as it exists in Old Norse, German and English, but as separate accounts of the sam story. The ON version is the oldest one, but it's quite interesting to see how the different versions have their own little quirks. In the ON version, the story is about Völund, who is clearly the king of the Alfar, quite a self possessed individual, egocentric, not very nice looking (since he's not human, and it needs to be pointed out how he differs from us) grubby (what Dargonkeeper would call disgusting), but very skilled in smithing. In the German version, he has a family that loves him. That littel tidbit adds a wholelot to the story, becasue it explains why he'd be treated the way he is and how come it is a just punishment to do what he did. If he has a family that loves him and that he needs to protect, then obviously, in ON terms, a king that has inflicted pain upon not just Völund, but also on his kin, can be punished in ways where the king's family is punished. The English version, where Völund is Weyland, has other bits and pieces to add, too. The punishemnts and both he king and Völund's actions differ somewhat, so by the time you read all three, you get a whole another feel for the story. It becomes much more personal, in terms of Völund, and you can start o feel for him in a whole another way.

 

[Shealladh]

Shealladh, I'm sorry for the lack of respone - my whole computer has crashed, so I've been wirelessless for a while. Good thing we have Bates!

No worries, my raid array collapsed again too, so I know the drama uke:
Bates is always on the ball.

It's actually interesting to me, this whole thread, since I've been whacking away at the metalurgical aspects of the Story of the Ring. I've compared several versions of it, as it exists in Old Norse, German and English, but as separate accounts of the sam story. The ON version is the oldest one, but it's quite interesting to see how the different versions have their own little quirks.

I'm always interested in starting with the oldest versions myself and work up for the variations as well. Otherwise you can get derailed or confused rather quickly :zombie:

In the ON version, the story is about Völund, who is clearly the king of the Alfar, quite a self possessed individual, egocentric, not very nice looking (since he's not human, and it needs to be pointed out how he differs from us) grubby (what Dargonkeeper would call disgusting), but very skilled in smithing.

Is this based upon a tribe also?

For example, in the movie I watched the dragonslayer had a family and people that seemed to be wiped out.

In the German version, he has a family that loves him. That little tidbit adds a wholelot to the story, becasue it explains why he'd be treated the way he is and how come it is a just punishment to do what he did. If he has a family that loves him and that he needs to protect, then obviously, in ON terms, a king that has inflicted pain upon not just Völund, but also on his kin, can be punished in ways where the king's family is punished.

I assume this is within the confines of old german law, whereby written accounts and codes of practice had just begun to be applied to all people, King and countrymen?

The English version, where Völund is Weyland, has other bits and pieces to add, too. The punishemnts and both he king and Völund's actions differ somewhat, so by the time you read all three, you get a whole another feel for the story. It becomes much more personal, in terms of Völund, and you can start to feel for him in a whole another way.

Like any version of a story, and especially oral traditional folklore or stories, it depends upon the context and applications of the morals being upheld by the author. Or in other words, those that they wish people to follow.

Thanks for the insight Tyra, tis always a pleasure to delve into lore that escapes us poor mortals stuck in the modern southern hemisphere. I think I live in the wrong end of the world and speak the wrong language sometimes. Almost to the point of feeling unnatural at times.

When I read things like this, I just want to jump on a ship and sail north to the long forgotten realms of old lore and dissapear into some remote location covered with trees and perched within long drawn frozen plains of endless dreams

 

[Tyra]

Is this based upon a tribe also?

Well, sort of, I guess. I mean, there’s an awful lot of stuff that we’re supposed to understand based upon the context, but that we today don’t because we’ve forgotten. Things that are not spelled out. I think the main thing is Völund’s ”otherness”. He is a king, so we’re to respect him for that alone, and he’s a skilled craftsman. He’s also part of the race that was created by crawling out from Ymer’s rotting flesh like so many maggots (you have to read the Edda, it's really quite gross), egocentric, not very kind. He’s not even human or god. He is something we don’t understand, something we fear that’s connected with magical things such as Brisingamen, Draupnir and Gungnir. And yet he loves his family. He trusts them with his most precious possessions, his gold. This proves that even the most vile creatures have a heart, some nobility. Even horrid people have mothers that love them. And even they are subject to the law, and so are you, if you are a human king, and even if the one you disrespect represents something grotesque or unknown. You cannot have people running around disrespecting foreign traders in Birka based upon the ide that hose traders are different, because even they have family, and even they can exact vengeance. I suppose this is where you can get into the concept of races and can you be asatru if you are not o Scandinavian descent and all that, but I’m not going to, because it’s a whole another post, but suffice it to say that this is the part of the Edda where we learn to behave around strangers and why. I suppose that can be interpreted as a tribal basis. Some say that Völund represent the fourth humanity.

I assume this is within the confines of old german law, whereby written accounts and codes of practice had just begun to be applied to all people, King and countrymen?

No, more so on the laws of conduct according to the Havamal and the rest of the Eddas.

 

[Shealladh]

No, more so on the laws of conduct according to the Havamal and the rest of the Eddas.

That's what I thought you meant, just wanted to clarify.
I can just imagine sitting around a nice open fire and discussing all this with you all. It makes me yearn for more stories!

God forbid, that last line makes me sound like a kid wanting another bedtime story or some shit. But that's why I like AA's music more with each album, it gives me a thought and awkening process.

I will get time to do more reading and exploring of the Edda's someday, I'm just plain out too busy atm.

Cheers and many thanks

 

[Tyra]

Naw, I get it. When we go on our Viking excursions, or when we have a mead hall, we have scalds who tell the stories, and they do provoke thought. They’re supposed to. Lore has many jobs: the stories need to be entertaining so that you don’t loose your audience, they need to explain culturally acceptable behaviour such as gender roles and laws and how to function within them, they also need to show the linguistic abilities of the scald, hey need to make the king (or someone like him) look very good, and they need to tell the stories of our ancestors. That’s a though bill, but it is also hat makes them so important. They are a document in time. The older versions often display things frozen in time, which is why you get more than one version of each story – some stories change over time, while some cannot be applied to new laws or cultural contexts. I used to be a religious duty to pass the lore on, but part of the object of Christianity was to erase the stories, so we’ve lost most of the ones where we could not apply the new, Christian rules. Snorre is one of the few monks that I am outright thankful for for this reason; without him, we would not have half the lore we do have, even if it’s somewhat misinterpreted or skewed.

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

I am reading about how the norse ppl got to convert themselves to christianity. Its a book writen by Régis Boyer. I was wondering, Tyra, your opinion about the question of revenge. In the book, the autor says that in the norse culture, when it came to the part where christianity professed forgiveness over revenge whereas revenge, in norse culture, wasnt a law but a right (bót or bòt?), how did they took it? i mean... the norse ppl werent bad ppl, of course times were harsh and all, they didnt understood sins like christianity does. I still havent finished that chapter in my book, but i was wondering your opinion on how could the norse ppl decide to 'forgive' to something or someone that have wronged them, considering that, according to Boyer, the culture, being materalistic, considered important to repair the damages that has been done. at first though, in the book, Boyer says that punishing someone to death, in norse culture, is utterly useless because a dead cannot do anything but stay there and rot, etc. might even be in the Havamal, is it possible? How come then they could accept to forgive, if they ever can(depending ont he situation), if the wrong they have been done isnt repaired in any way because forgiveness gets in the way - here, to me, it sounds pretty much like forget-ness.

Same with suicide. As far as i comprehend suicide in norse culture, it was the highest sacrifice your could make to your god. when you make a sacrifice to Odin, for example, you expect something in return, you just dont do it for his pretty eye. Of course ppl didnt go on suiciding themselves on an impulse or something. I guess here i just thought about Avanger song from AA, where he swore to go through his vengance but requiered the help of his god, in exchange of his life once its accomplished. I wonder : is that pure fiction or an ideal of some sort ?

Anyway, thanks for answering

 

[Tyra]

Hmmm, that's a tough question to answer... I have not read the book, but I recognize the argument. Usually what is meant when they say revenge was a right, not a law, it's because revenge was a right that was upheld by tradition. Within Norse society, you have no state yet, and the drott and the first kings were not the leaders because they owned so much land, but because their kin was the more powerful. But if everyone revenged everyone, you'd end up like in Njal's saga, with whole families obliterating oneanother in this perpetual game of tit for tat - exactly like what happened to the people on Easter Island, where they killed each other off to the point that the natives were almost eradicated. That serves no purpose in terms of past, present or future. But right must be given, so the law made it possible to receive compensation for whatever the other person had done to your kin. So many pieces of silver for an injury to that body part, so many pieces of silver for a dead husband, so many peices of silver for such an insult. The law and the tradition weighed even. If your kin was disrespected, your first option was to seek compensation at the Thing. If that did not work, then you could still seek revenge. There were laws for that, too. If you had been insulted and they dude choose not to show up to the Thing to face you, then you had the right to fight him. if you killed him, you still had to pay silver for his life, but it was only a fraction of what it would have been had he not chosen to first insult you, then be a coward and not face you at the Thing. I'm not sure if that answers your question?

As for the suicide thing, I probably shouldn't answer that question, because I don't think I've come to terms with the idea iteslf yet. I do not think that it was necessarily common to commit suicide for the reason you mention, and I have not found a lot of instances in the lore that confirms the theory, so I don't know what it's based on. I can't think of a place where it says you should sacrifice yourself like that. There is, however, stuff in the lore along the lines of men promising to dedicate themselves in return for a favour. If you ask for Thor's help and dedicate yourself to him in return for something, that is one thing, but Oden is the god of war and wisdom, but he also gets half of the slain. If you dedicate yourself to him, you can pretty much count on him taking you to Valhall early. That's where he needs you to be (hence the continuous reminder on this forum for people NOT to tattoo Valknots on their skin unless they have a death wish). That's different from suicide, though. You give your life to Odin, he'll make sure you die in battle soon. You won't have to take your own life by jumping off a cliff then. It's superfluous. I think that's what's alluded to in Avenger, rather than someone planning on suicide after revenge. -Give me this victory, the only one I care for, and I am yours to do with as you please once I am victorious.

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

thanks for your invaluable insight Tyra, it certainly cleared a few puzzlements in my head! but then, how did christiannity could win over that tradition? i know it goes with alot of stuff - political mostly - anyway... should just go sleep now! thanks for answering so fast

 

[Tyra]

"You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."...really ought to be the Scandinavian slogan. That's how it happened mostly, and I suppose with a bit of violent force, too, becasue we still to this day tend to assimilate and disappear in the crowd rather than stand out. It goes back to that Law of Jante, that we've dicussed on this forum before. That, in and of itself, shows that the old tradition didn't get fully conquered by anyone, becasue we still do an awful lot of pre-Christian things, whether we know if or not. It's some kind of weird hybrid, so I don't think you can say that the Christian faith won over the tradition, since both exist along side of one another. -T

 

[Runesinger]

Speaking for the Norwegian side of the mountains, the coercion of the heathens was well-documented. The (in)famous quote by Olaf Tryggvason "All Norway should be Christian or die" says it all. He was defeated at sea by the sons of Haakon leading the combined fleets of the Swedish, Danish and Wendish (apparently conversion to Christianity was not so generally popular).

When defeat seemed imminent, he leaped over the side of his great ship, the Ormurin Langi, and was never heard from again - too bad

 

[Bates]

One of the oddest quirks I've observed about Christianity... for a faith whose followers shouldn't need to fear death, by their beliefs, they seem to be rather less accepting of it then, well, most of the others.

 

[Shealladh]

One of the oddest quirks I've observed about Christianity... for a faith whose followers shouldn't need to fear death, by their beliefs, they seem to be rather less accepting of it then, well, most of the others.

I agree, I think more of the older pagan beliefs are less fearful of death. Unless of course you're christian and brought up to fear the rath of god.

I still reckon that dying honourably will give you better chances of standing by others on the other side.

Otherwise, death is meaningless. Die with honour to me defines your actions in life, imortalised by those left behind to remember your deeds, hence living forever imho.

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

Ive almost finished the painting im working on right now, theres a detail i need to specify though....
Oden, what would/could be the color of his cloak? i know it could simply be a dusty gray or black, but in this painting hes not really concealing his personnality, or if he is, hes just acting as a warrior. but the cloak is what we see the most and i was wondering what color it could be in such a context. Gray wouldnt fit.
or then, maybe... what could be the color of the cloak of an einherjer or a living warrior?
Tyra, since hes the one youre more akin to, what do you think please? and how are you by the way?
thank you for all answer