Sleipnir
Thorsmadr
Tyra said:
You have my e-mail right? I look forward to hearing from you,you gonna ever get out this way for a blót?
Viking mythology and all that goes with it
- Thread starter Celtik Militia
- Start date
You have my e-mail right? I look forward to hearing from you,you gonna ever get out this way for a blót?
Now I've got a question (maybe someone from Sweden or Norway knows best):
Especially when you read about Thor, you will always read about "Giants" and "Dwarfs" (at least that's how it's translated in my german books).
But when you visit Sweden (I do almost every year, and I can't wait for my visit this summer!), you will most likely hear storys about "Trolls". It's like they are living in every forest, under that trunk or stone, or maybe that trunk or stone actually was a Troll ... but in the Edda for example, no "Trolls" apear.
But in Sweden you won't hear any storys about Giants or Dwarfs, unlike here in Germany: we don't have Trolls, but we DO have Giants and Dwarfs in our folk-tales ...
So my question is: are the Trolls the creatures that apear as giants (or dwarfs) in the Edda and vice versa?
Or is there no connection at all?
Any ideas?
Especially when you read about Thor, you will always read about "Giants" and "Dwarfs" (at least that's how it's translated in my german books).
But when you visit Sweden (I do almost every year, and I can't wait for my visit this summer!), you will most likely hear storys about "Trolls". It's like they are living in every forest, under that trunk or stone, or maybe that trunk or stone actually was a Troll ... but in the Edda for example, no "Trolls" apear.
But in Sweden you won't hear any storys about Giants or Dwarfs, unlike here in Germany: we don't have Trolls, but we DO have Giants and Dwarfs in our folk-tales ...
So my question is: are the Trolls the creatures that apear as giants (or dwarfs) in the Edda and vice versa?
Or is there no connection at all?
Any ideas?
Tomasz
outdoor type
I can't asnwer your question, but where I come from, those with big red noses are usaly rednecks consuming large quantities of vodka, and those aren't stories but facts.
Sleipnir
Thorsmadr
F_Slim said:
In The Norse Myths by Kevin Crossley Holland there are two rerferences, one during the story of The Building of the Asgard Wall: "He said he was anxious in case Thor,who was away in the east fighting trolls at the time,should return home and fail to see matters in the way the other gods have done"
And in Thor's Duel with Hrungnir:" While Thor was away fighting trolls and troll women and their wolfchildren in Iron Wood, odin bridled at his own lack of action." It is also mentioned in the Prose Edda in Skáldskaparmál for this very same myth
In Myths of the Norsemen by Guerber she states in "Dwarves and Elves":.....those which were dark,treacherous and cunning by nature were banished to Svartalfheim.......They were called Dwarfs,trolls,Gnomes or Kobolds......" She also has a few more entries about them in that book.
I think the trolls are most aligned with the Svartalfar then giants and also geographic location probably has a lot to do with what each region calls their wights.
Tyra
Member
The trolls, like Sleipnir said, are a separate entity. We do have folktales with giants, jättar, but the dwarves are not called "dwarves" in later tales. They are called nissar, tomtar, alfar, vättar and so on, depending on what their "job" is. The "tomtar" is what eventually developed into Santa Claus, who is called Tomten or Tomte Nisse. Hence, a common misconception is to think that "tomtar" or "nissar" are always "nice", benevolent beings. Some of them, though, are the offspring of Svart Alfar. There are some dwarves who are in charge of looking after the homes. This is why Swedes set out porridge for "tomten" on Christmas eve. That is old asatru in action - it is an offering that people make to this day to the alfar that look after their home or farm - people just don't realize that it's such an ancient tradition. It was felt that if a home burnt down or a farm was struck with bad crops etc, it was because someone had angered the dwarves. This could be because the offering was not a good one, for example, but when I was a kid, I was always told not to make too much noise and run "with heavy feet" indoors, because it would anger the vättar (they were thought to live under the house and would thus have been bothered by noisy children, people hammering indoors and so on). These things are very much alive to this day.
There is a really good archaeology paper on this troll issue, but I think it's in Swedish. Either way, the answer is, the trolls are separate from the dwarves and the giants, and they are just as common as the other two beings. I think it may be that the trolls have been put into the "childrens' stories" category in folklore since they are generally considered dumb louts, whereas the giants and dwarves have ended up in the Eddas and so on because they had a part in making up the religious aspect of things (the making of the world, making of Mjöllner and so on). No troll has been a match for Odin or Loki, but giants, giantesses and dwarves have. See the difference?
There is a really good archaeology paper on this troll issue, but I think it's in Swedish. Either way, the answer is, the trolls are separate from the dwarves and the giants, and they are just as common as the other two beings. I think it may be that the trolls have been put into the "childrens' stories" category in folklore since they are generally considered dumb louts, whereas the giants and dwarves have ended up in the Eddas and so on because they had a part in making up the religious aspect of things (the making of the world, making of Mjöllner and so on). No troll has been a match for Odin or Loki, but giants, giantesses and dwarves have. See the difference?
I just looked up the Building of the Asgard Wall in "Walhalla" by Gustav Schalk, and there it sais that Thor is away in the east to slay "Unholde", which would basically translate to "scoundrells" or "villains" I guess ... or "dumb louts" as Tyra said 
BTW do you have a link to that archaeology paper? I started to learn swedish anyway, and I usually can understand quite a lot when reading it ...
Anyway thanks for the info (and thanks for the anecdotes), I find this really interesting!
BTW do you have a link to that archaeology paper? I started to learn swedish anyway, and I usually can understand quite a lot when reading it ...
Anyway thanks for the info (and thanks for the anecdotes), I find this really interesting!
Tyra
Member
Mmmmm, dunno, but I'll look. Johan is arriving on Monday and I have two kids who both celebrate their birthdays this weekend before that, but I promise I'll get on it as soon as I can. T.
Tyra
Member
Youuu ... you... lucky.... YOOOOOOU LUCKY SISTER!!!! LOL... I wish I could talk to him one on one
TheLastWithPaganBlood
Nordman
Saw a programme about the Himalayas and Mt. Everest, and the people there, before they drink alcohol the throw a drop of their booze to the mountain and one to Buddha and one to humankind. Then I saw Troy and there they pour some of their stuff on the ground before toasting, to the Gods I believe it was (can't remember). Question: did we have a custom like this up north? Or are we perhaps to greedy with our alcohol that we purchase with about 200% taxes at Systembolaget once we have turned 25?
Tyra
Member
Are you kidding?! Blòt!
Alcohol is a great thing to offer up to the gods as libation at blòt. It was done in the way you describe above during the iron age and it still is today. It is precicely because it is a precious thing that we offer it up, one of those things in life that is so special to us that we would expect the gods to appreicate it, too, just like you mentioned. It was and is used to hallow religious sites before you perform ceremonies and rites, and it is and was used to "bless" a site before you build on it etc, but most obvious, during blòt.
Interesting sidenote: Many, if not most, Indo-European religions of the early Indo-European era involve some sort of ritual performed with a holy drink made with honey, such as mead or soma. They were generally offered up in the fashion that you outlined.
Alcohol is a great thing to offer up to the gods as libation at blòt. It was done in the way you describe above during the iron age and it still is today. It is precicely because it is a precious thing that we offer it up, one of those things in life that is so special to us that we would expect the gods to appreicate it, too, just like you mentioned. It was and is used to hallow religious sites before you perform ceremonies and rites, and it is and was used to "bless" a site before you build on it etc, but most obvious, during blòt.
Interesting sidenote: Many, if not most, Indo-European religions of the early Indo-European era involve some sort of ritual performed with a holy drink made with honey, such as mead or soma. They were generally offered up in the fashion that you outlined.
TheLastWithPaganBlood
Nordman
Yeah, but this was being one on so "un-religious" circumstances, so I just wondered if it was common like for example when good friends toasted at a party etc.
Tyra
Member
Sure. It's called Sumbl (sumbel).
Edit:
OK, that was a dumb answer... It's kind of a deep question, even though it doesn't seem to be on the surface, and the roots lie much deeper than my answer implied: If you study current non-judeo-christian- and pre-christian religions at depth, you will find that the perception of time is three-dimensional, rather than linear, as it is with our modern, western perception of it. That means that we, today, see a timeline with a before and and after, with ourselves someplace in between. Three dimensional time works like a cube, you can be anywhere within that cube, up down, in front, in the back and so on. What the linear timeline means, is that we can divide things into segemnts of the day: the time we eat, the time we sleep, the time we tend to holy things. If time is three dimensional, then time and space cannot be divided in the same fashion. What was still is, and what will be already is, too. There is one present, only the depth varies. What I am getting at with this whole explanation is, that everything in a three dimensional time perception is just as holy as anything else. That is, there is no such concept as "un-religious" until Christianity introduced it (or "religious" for that matter - there is not even a word for religion in most nature religions, and there isn't one in ON, either) because everything we do is one and the same. Shit...it's really late (1 AM) and I can't think in English... Übermorgen ist auf gestern abhängig, is what I am trying to say. You get that, right? All offerings are of a religious nature, because nature in itself is religious. Everything is. And so you see, you cannot remove an act from the "cube" and call it an "un-religious" act.
This is a really deep concept, but if you don't get it or don't want to get deep about it, my original answer still stands.
Edit:
OK, that was a dumb answer... It's kind of a deep question, even though it doesn't seem to be on the surface, and the roots lie much deeper than my answer implied: If you study current non-judeo-christian- and pre-christian religions at depth, you will find that the perception of time is three-dimensional, rather than linear, as it is with our modern, western perception of it. That means that we, today, see a timeline with a before and and after, with ourselves someplace in between. Three dimensional time works like a cube, you can be anywhere within that cube, up down, in front, in the back and so on. What the linear timeline means, is that we can divide things into segemnts of the day: the time we eat, the time we sleep, the time we tend to holy things. If time is three dimensional, then time and space cannot be divided in the same fashion. What was still is, and what will be already is, too. There is one present, only the depth varies. What I am getting at with this whole explanation is, that everything in a three dimensional time perception is just as holy as anything else. That is, there is no such concept as "un-religious" until Christianity introduced it (or "religious" for that matter - there is not even a word for religion in most nature religions, and there isn't one in ON, either) because everything we do is one and the same. Shit...it's really late (1 AM) and I can't think in English... Übermorgen ist auf gestern abhängig, is what I am trying to say. You get that, right? All offerings are of a religious nature, because nature in itself is religious. Everything is. And so you see, you cannot remove an act from the "cube" and call it an "un-religious" act.
This is a really deep concept, but if you don't get it or don't want to get deep about it, my original answer still stands.
TheLastWithPaganBlood
Nordman
Thank you for that piece of very interesting information, It is something I srt of had a gut feeling of before, but never knew for certain. And I will give it alot of thinking.
edit: I just meant that this was a more casual sort of thing - but I get it, it was a sort of informal "mini-blot".
edit: I just meant that this was a more casual sort of thing - but I get it, it was a sort of informal "mini-blot".
DragonKeeper
czarica i pijana
Tyra said:
Yup, Slavs did it also....we were also very fond of mead. Slavs also introduced strong alcohol such as vodka to the Norse...arn't we nice?
In terms of rituals....Norse, Slavic, and Germanic gods and rituals seem to overlap occasionally and it is difficult to determin which came first.
Speaking of trolls and giants....there are folktales with trolls and giants, but more ogres and witches than trolls like baba roga (baba yaga). I do not think we have stories with dwarves....i am not entirely sure though. Instead of the dwarf living under the house we have a house spirit living in the house, often behind the stove and is angered by things such as not keeping the house clean and children running through the house...funny isn't it?
Tyra
Member
Yeah, dwarves could live like that, in the house. The religions overlap quite a bit, as you pointed out.
Anyhow, what I was getting to, was the origin of the stories about witches. The roots go much deeper than many realize. "Witch" is a term brought in to describe wise women who knew how to heal in ways not sanctioned by the church. After all, "only God can heal", right? These women were made to look frightening, ugly, nasty, devil-worshiping (which, if you believe in the Bible and its definition of idolatry and the devil's tools, they were, but not in the sense that they actually worshipped "Satan", but rather Odin or Eir and so on) etc., to dissuade people from using their services. They were frightening because they knew stuff only God was supposed to know, so the only way they could know it was if they were in league with Satan. To me, the stories remind us that there were healers and worshippers in the area long after the arrival of the new faith. These are some of the same people who kept our faiths alive. In Sweden, there is documented evidence of asatru (and even older religions) being practised actively by these women in times of trouble (famine, disease, drought etc) as late as the 1880's. This includes herbal lore, the carving of runes, chanting and so on. It's just that we used to call them seithkonor until the new faith came, and they were respected up until then. After that, they were renamed Baba Yaga and Pomperipossa and such.
Anyhow, what I was getting to, was the origin of the stories about witches. The roots go much deeper than many realize. "Witch" is a term brought in to describe wise women who knew how to heal in ways not sanctioned by the church. After all, "only God can heal", right? These women were made to look frightening, ugly, nasty, devil-worshiping (which, if you believe in the Bible and its definition of idolatry and the devil's tools, they were, but not in the sense that they actually worshipped "Satan", but rather Odin or Eir and so on) etc., to dissuade people from using their services. They were frightening because they knew stuff only God was supposed to know, so the only way they could know it was if they were in league with Satan. To me, the stories remind us that there were healers and worshippers in the area long after the arrival of the new faith. These are some of the same people who kept our faiths alive. In Sweden, there is documented evidence of asatru (and even older religions) being practised actively by these women in times of trouble (famine, disease, drought etc) as late as the 1880's. This includes herbal lore, the carving of runes, chanting and so on. It's just that we used to call them seithkonor until the new faith came, and they were respected up until then. After that, they were renamed Baba Yaga and Pomperipossa and such.
Knarfi
Yaba-daba-doo!
Krigloch the Furry-ass said:
Hmm isnt Asatru a bit "new"? ive read it was the "reincarnation of an ancient religion" or something like that.. anyone who knows more about this?
Tyra
Member
No, asatru is not new. It is the name of the religion practised by the Norse since at least 400 A D. The idea that it is a new religion is a North American misconception. In this part of the world, many believe that the old faith died out entirely with the arrival of Christianity. If you read my above post, or many of the ones before that one, you will see for yourself that the faith never died, but lived along side of the other one, underground mostly. The traditions were passed on orally, which has lead many current day people who are not immersed in the culture to believe that it doesn't exist. It also doen't help explain things that some who are wiccan say they are asatru (because they have borrowed many elements from the old ways of the Norse), and their religion IS a recreationist one (they say so themselves, at least the ones I know). In North America, it's quite common for a person to say they are asatru AND to try to recreate things, but that's because the faith in NEW TO AMERICA. It is NOT new to Europe, however. Does that make sense to you?
Knarfi
Yaba-daba-doo!
Tyra said:
Yes it does, well thanks allot for the explanation.. it realy cleared it all up for me. I guess ive just read the wrong sites...
