Viking mythology and all that goes with it

[Ikki]

Well, all I am saying is that many people, such as the Celts, the Greek, the Romans, and the Germanic tribes, used to celebrate a religious feast in the month of December. That is becuase of the solstice falling at that time. Many of the same religions held feasts at the other solstice, summer solstice, and the solar equinox in spring and fall, too. Some of those feasts are still celebrated, such as in Sweden, where a big feast is held at midsummer. Many other feasts have survived into modern day, but under other names or under Christian names, such as Halloween being All Saints Day or Day of the Dead. One way to Christianize people is to park feasts over top of their own feasts, so that they won't miss the feasts or have a chance to celebrate both.
As for the tree, I was refering to the Christmas tree, which also is an old pagan symbol that was prevalent in many pre-Christians religions, but was adopted by them.
Explain to me what you mean here: "after that is became a pagan party?those first feasts?" I'll reply if I can.

oh, thank you, i was asking that, if, after the first feast which i supposed very ancient and before religion was "invented", i mean, if those feast happened like in caves era and then they still continue to nowadays, so actually you can trace the winter solstice celebration back to the caves and we still keeped, modified but basically the same...

and the decoration of trees, i´m just curios, i mean, i have no idea from where it comes because also now in southern europe people do decorate trees i guess that the traditional thing here was just to settle the "nativity"( dunno the word) with figures and so...so just curios...

the other thing you explained, abut xtians stealing pagan feasts, i know, as well as symbols and basically verything they nedded/wanted/found useful...bastards, dunno why they bother to cross the jordan...

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

OK. I don't think I have ever read or heard about prostitutes in Norse society, and the only way I can explain that is that 1. they had ambatts 2. there were rules for who could fuck who, why and when, and 3. there probably was not a financial need for a woman to become a prostitute. Women were either cared for by their kin/husband or they were independently wealthy (Norse women had inheritance rights that they lost with the arrival of the New Faith, and so could be independently wealthy) or they were ambatts. My understanding is that before one got married, one could be handfasted. During the period of handfasting, the man and woman lived pretty much as if they were married, which included having sexual relations. If both parties were not happy with how the trial period (appx a year) had gone, the couple would not get married, and both were free to walk away as if it had never happened. If there were children, they would be cared for as if they were a legitamate child from a married couple. Again, this would cause a lesser need for someone to want to use the services of a whore. Mind you, there are plenty of examples of the ambatts being used as one would use a whore in the lore. Ibn Fahadlan complains that the Rus men would take pleasure in fornicating with their ambatts in public, so that all could see.
It was not a good thing for a woman to be thought of as a loose woman, as we can see at Aegir's feast, where Loke accuses Freja of being a slut. It was punishable by law to call women and men nasty names, so that would not have been done lightly. One could be put to death for even insinuating that a man had behaved "in an unmanly way", for example.

I said it was satisfying hihi! What you don't think I can speak without irony? Or did you just take this as a svepskäl to write another long post? Anyway this was a good kompletering to the first post. Thanks.

 

[Tyra]

He he... but I have nothing to do but think of you! I'm snowed in, remember? ;-)

 

[SantaSCSI]

Wow, i had no idea that i could just download the edda in pdf :|. Stil its more fun to read the book in place of the pdf on the computer.

 

[Tyra]

^ Too right, cuz half the story is in the footnotes if you're not too sure what all the kennings and such are. It's good to have it on-line as a quick reference, though.

Ikki, I see what you mean now. I'll have to get back to you later, though, cuz it's really late, and I have to get up and play "soccer mom" tomorrow (skating week at the kids' school - I'll be tying and untying about a zillion skate laces for about four hours every day this week..yucky, but I love my kids, so I won't mind too much.)

 

[Ikki]

^ Too right, cuz half the story is in the footnotes if you're not too sure what all the kennings and such are. It's good to have it on-line as a quick reference, though.

Ikki, I see what you mean now. I'll have to get back to you later, though, cuz it's really late, and I have to get up and play "soccer mom" tomorrow (skating week at the kids' school - I'll be tying and untying about a zillion skate laces for about four hours every day this week..yucky, but I love my kids, so I won't mind too much.)

have fun there with kids&snow..if i could i tke a picture in hre right now and sow the giant sun we have and the fact there is not a single snowflake and exactly today is when ski seasons starts over here and this year it´s not going to happen,threfore I¨M ANGRY!!!!some people think is cool to have sun all the time at winter...well, i dont....

hey, and just when you have time, just write in here, thanks for that!!!

 

[Celtik Militia]

i have a question, mainly for Tyra (lol, this thread became a questions and answers with Tyra thread now ), its kind of off topic but i didn't want to create a whole thread if her answer will just be "no, sorry".

SO, Tyra, have you seen the movie Quest for Fire? i'm not sure if you're very specialised in prehistory but is this movie somewhat faithfull to what archeologists believe it was like 80,000 years ago?

If you haven't seen it, i recommend it strongly to you. Its about these neanderthals who lost their fire to another tribe, and so they send out 3 of them to go find some in the vast lands.. and they live a few adventures, some are somewhat funny. there are no dialogues cause we're not supposed to understand what the guys are saying. anyway yeah; good movie (by the guy who directed Enemy at the Gates, The Bear, and stuff.. very good french director ^^)

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

This really has become the "Ask Tyra thread". Well anyways, heres a question: When my father goes a viking (business trio) or when he eventually dies - who gets to inherit and who gets to decide over the household, according to ON law, me - the eldest son - or my mother?

 

[Pessimism]

I have a few questions for you Tyra, hopefully you (or anyone else) can answer them. I know one of the other names for Odin was Hangatýr, and I had an issue with the etymology. If it is indeed a relatively good translation into english characters, could the Týr in Hangatýr refer to the time when it is said that Týr was the head God (if that theory is indeed correct)?


I was also wondering about the battle of Lena; is it true that the Danes had nearly twice the size of the army the Swede’s had?

edit: Also, is there a specific time you can perform sumbel, or is it an anytime thing?

 

[Tyra]

Pagan:
It depends on where you live and during what period, but pre-Christian and on average this is how I think it'd go: You would inherit,but if you had a sister or a brother you'd have to share equally with them. If one of you die, your mother would inherit that estate. This is called "bakarv". This is why a woman's loyalties always should lie with her brothers, not with her father.

Edit - Oops, I just realized I only answered half the question! When your Dad goes on a bussiness trip, a k a goes viking, Mom is in charge. A man is in charge of his house once he has moved out and got married, or if his father dies. Until then, Mom is in charge.

 

[Tyra]

I have a few questions for you Tyra, hopefully you (or anyone else) can answer them. I know one of the other names for Odin was Hangatýr, and I had an issue with the etymology. If it is indeed a relatively good translation into english characters, could the Týr in Hangatýr refer to the time when it is said that Týr was the head God (if that theory is indeed correct)?
I was also wondering about the battle of Lena; is it true that the Danes had nearly twice the size of the army the Swede’s had?

edit: Also, is there a specific time you can perform sumbel, or is it an anytime thing?

OK, Battle of Lena: Very disputed exactly how big the troops were, but for all intents and purposes, the closest we can come is that the Swedes and Norwegians were very much outnumbered and that there were an awful lot of Danes killed. All the written evidence from the time of the battle (1208) say is "A battle was fought at Lena, Sverker fleed".

Sumbel: Any time is fine. You can also do a blot any time. You can do the two together or separately. Certain blot are held only at certain times of year, and then they have a specific name, such as Midvinter blot, Midsommar Blot, disablot and so on.

Hangatyr: Tyr and Tiwas are the ON and Germanic (respectively) words for a specific god, as you say, the god that gave us the name for Tuesday (Tiwasday). Tyr is also a word meaning deity ( the plural, tívar, is often used about the gods and goddesses as a group , i.e. the Aesir and the Vanir, male and female). So, the name Hangatyr means "the hanging god". The etymology goes back to proto-Indo-European deiwos, with the oldest Germanic form being *teiwaz. In other religions, the same word has evolved into names that represent the Sky God, such as Zeus. Tyr was also a Sky God, as you know. Odin did take on some of Tyr's traits, and sometimes the two have been mixed up in the lore, but in this specific case, there is actually research that has showed that this really is about Odin, and not Tyr.
(Blah, now you just remonded me about that damn paper I had to write on proto-Indo-European earlier this year...at least I knew the answer to this one in my sleep! Thanks!)

 

[Tyra]

i have a question, mainly for Tyra (lol, this thread became a questions and answers with Tyra thread now ), its kind of off topic but i didn't want to create a whole thread if her answer will just be "no, sorry".

SO, Tyra, have you seen the movie Quest for Fire? i'm not sure if you're very specialised in prehistory but is this movie somewhat faithfull to what archeologists believe it was like 80,000 years ago?

If you haven't seen it, i recommend it strongly to you. Its about these neanderthals who lost their fire to another tribe, and so they send out 3 of them to go find some in the vast lands.. and they live a few adventures, some are somewhat funny. there are no dialogues cause we're not supposed to understand what the guys are saying. anyway yeah; good movie (by the guy who directed Enemy at the Gates, The Bear, and stuff.. very good french director ^^)

You know, I'd heard about that movie, but I don't know that it ever ran in theatres here. I guess I can check the video store and see if I can rent the dvd.

Edit - Just realized your post said 80 000 years ago. Where are the Neanderthals supposed to be living in the movie? That might be a hint.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

Pagan:
It depends on where you live and during what period, but pre-Christian and on average this is how I think it'd go: You would inherit,but if you had a sister or a brother you'd have to share equally with them. If one of you die, your mother would inherit that estate. This is called "bakarv". This is why a woman's loyalties always should lie with her brothers, not with her father.

Edit - Oops, I just realized I only answered half the question! When your Dad goes on a bussiness trip, a k a goes viking, Mom is in charge. A man is in charge of his house once he has moved out and got married, or if his father dies. Until then, Mom is in charge.

Now are you just saying that because you're a mother? Because I think I should have the right to decide. I'm more of my father than my mother will ever be, do you know what I mean? She just married the guy - I'm the offspring! And I thought that for the north germanic tribe only the eldest son inherited, and therefore the younger ones had to go viking, wheras with for example the franks things were divided, thus the large amount of small frankish kingdoms and fighting between them.

 

[Celtik Militia]

You know, I'd heard about that movie, but I don't know that it ever ran in theatres here. I guess I can check the video store and see if I can rent the dvd.

Edit - Just realized your post said 80 000 years ago. Where are the Neanderthals supposed to be living in the movie? That might be a hint.

it came out in theatres quite a while ago... early 90s i believe.

anyway, it doesn't say where the movie is supposed to take place, but if the guys are neanderthals i'm guessing its in europe or middle east. What surprised me is that, in the begining, they fight against primitive "humanoids", very hairy... monkey-like. i guess they are homo erectus considering they were contemporary at the time, but my classes didn't talk about these two species interacting. so the movie is probably more in middle east, closer to africa where homo erectus were mostly (i forgot). and these neanderthals meet up with homo sapiens too, and considering homo sapiens only came to europe in 40,000 BC i guess it takes place in middle east. but that all bothers me still.
the movie doesn't say the guys are neanderthal, but i'm guessing considering that they look like neanderthals and they interbreed with homo sapiens (so the movie accepts that neanderthals and homo sapiens are a different race and not a different species..). the homo sapiens have pottery though, and i heard thats an anachronism.

anyway, i recomend it to you greatly. Its really a good movie!
if you're interested but can't find it in your video club, i found it easilly by downloading it, you can find some torrents for this movie on the net (that is if you know how to do that).

here's a little teaser : http://www.play.com/DVD/DVD/PROD/3-/1021553/Quest_For_Fire/Product.html#

 

[Tyra]

Hmmm, well, I guess I'll have to watch it, then. I can't really say if it's an anachronysm if I don't know where the story takes place, for starters. In the case of Europe, there were no humans (as in Cro Magnon) until 40 000 years ago. The latest research that I am aware of (would be about 9 mos old) indicates that Neanderthals couldn't breed with Homo Sapien (never stopped anyone from trying though, I suppose! Ask any goatfucker...) but I am not so sure about Homo Erectus. Erectus had upright walk (hence the name) and fire, and appears outside of Africa. They would have overlapped in time with Neanderthal, as would Cro Magnon, for example, but Cro Magnon overlapped in Europe. Cro Magnon was a fully form human as we look today, and as such, should look different than Erectus. To the best of my knowledge, Erectus did not use pottery, and I have never heard of Neanderthal having it either. Studying neanderthals tend to focus on studying their bones, stone tools and any remnants of buryal rites. Really, we don't do much study regarding neanderthals at my school. We tend to focus on those brances of the hominid tree that actually turned into "us", all except for a few, who choose to specialize on neanderthals. I don't know why that is, because it's "we" that have to dig them up if/when they need "undigging". They had very intricate furnerary practises, judging by their graves, but the tools were simpler than Cro Magnon, for example, and the skeletal make up is much different from ours. The inability to interbreed is based on that (female human bonestructure could not sustain delivering a neanderthal head, for example) but also on ancient DNA.

 

[Larsson]

...which leads to an interseting question: if it not a religious act, why do you open presents and throw a feast?

You'd be suprised. I don't think anyone is as cynical about christmas as I am. I actually sit down calculating all the money im expecting to get during christmas to see how much nerd-stuff/booze I can afford, or if I can get that stereo I have allways wanted. I am corrupted to the core.

On the other hand; besides summer-break, when I can work, christmas is my biggest source of income.

(never stopped anyone from trying though, I suppose! Ask any goatfucker...)

When we are on the subject of beastiality. What about the runes with well-hung viking warriors fucking horses? I have a hard time finding anything on this strangely intriguing subject. I think that in their culture that was viewd as a very manly act, as it takes quite a man indeed to fuck a horse.

How did it even work? I'm 186 and I'm certainly not tall enough to fuck a horse, and people where shorter back then. I need some fresh air.

 

[Tyra]

^Åååååååh, show me, show me!!!!! Not that I am into beastiality, but I am writing some stuff to do with ritual homosexuality (WARNING: do not f***ing ask or I'll never shut up!!!), and I have been trying to find anything relating to the topic of "what's abnormal to us isn't necessarily abnormal to others". This would really help!
Since I have not seen the picture stones you're refering to, I can tell you this: On petroglyphs (hällristningar) at Tanum (Vitlycke, specifically) and Sagaholm, there are depictions of beastiality. It has been assumed that this is a depiction of a male god having sexual relations with a female goddess, who's turned herself into an animal. That theory stands today because there are many stories in ethnography and in many other ancient Indo-European religions that go along those lines. In other words, the beastiality depicted was a divine act, a symbol for fertility, part of religion and not necesarily an actual real practise among the people. Ancient Indo-European religions oftentimes contain stories of the world being created by the Goddess as a result of such coitus. Those depictions (petroglyphs from Tanum and Sagaholm etc) are of a much older date than the Iron Age picture stones, though (appx 7000 years old).
The horse was a holy animal for many Indo-European peoples throughout a long period of pre-history. The Celts, Norse and Kurgans to name a few buried their rich with their horses as a sign of status, and before them, it seems the horse had a religious meaning. The horse was pivotal for human cultural development for many reasons, so it is understandable that it was a very highly prized animal. Those societies that learned to use the horse early on were able to evolve culturally in a way that others could not, so therein lies some of the fundamentals of why some cultures seem to rule the world while some drag behind, so to speak. Some scholars even claim that the whole reason the Indo-Europeans could conquer Europe was becuase they were the first to use a stirrup (stigbygel). With the stirrup, a small troop could, for the first time in history, controll large masses of people, making it possible for one ruler to control a large area and wage battle with only a small amount of retainers. What I am getting at with all this horse stuff is only that the horse was incredibly important both in a very practical way and in a ritual way, so it would not be out of context to depict a man with a large fallos coupling with a horse for several reasons.

Now we've really "fucked" this thread up, in more ways than one! ;-)
-T

 

[Tyra]

oh, thank you, i was asking that, if, after the first feast which i supposed very ancient and before religion was "invented", i mean, if those feast happened like in caves era and then they still continue to nowadays, so actually you can trace the winter solstice celebration back to the caves and we still keeped, modified but basically the same...

and the decoration of trees, i´m just curios, i mean, i have no idea from where it comes because also now in southern europe people do decorate trees i guess that the traditional thing here was just to settle the "nativity"( dunno the word) with figures and so...so just curios...

the other thing you explained, abut xtians stealing pagan feasts, i know, as well as symbols and basically verything they nedded/wanted/found useful...bastards, dunno why they bother to cross the jordan...

Well, personally I think it is very difficult to say much for certain about the paleolithic, but some scholars (Brian Hayden for example) have stated that we can assume that feasting as a political tool took place as far back as the paleolithic. I would say that the celebration of the solstice has been marked at the very least sice the neolithic, as evidenced by such places as Newgrange and Stonehenge. So, the marking of the solstice with a ritual is truly an ancient custom.

There are a couple of ancient Indo-European religions that uses a tree as a sacred symbol. The most famous of them are probably the Norse, who had Yggdrasil, and the Sae (Saxons), who had the Irminsul, and the Celts also had a tree of life. We know for sure that the Sae used to worship a specific tree, and that they cared for it and decorated it at certain times of the year, because the good old Christian monks worte about what happened when a missionary had it hacked down. The tree was a symbol for the universe, sort of. Everything exists in relation to the World Tree - the world of the gods and goddesses sits on one branch, as does our world. The well of Mimer and the well of the Norns lie at its foot and so on. It is when the tree falls over that we are in big trouble, and it will, as it is constantly being gnawed on, and it'll burn at Ragnarök. Anyhow, the thinking is that the decorating of a tree goes back to this tradition and not a Christian one. It was however, Christians who forst started bringing the tree in doors.

The use of mistletoe and holly at this time of year also goes back to Celt and Germanic tradition.

Now to be the Devil's advocate (no pun intended): The Christians are not the first to ever have borrowed from other religions and cultures. Their religion is "only" 2000 years old, which is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Mixing and borrowing and mingling for religion have taken place much earlier and over much longer periods of time than a puny 2000 years. Religion is the original "powertool", and so, in all fairness, we can't really call them bastards before we look to our own ancestors before them. Or as they would say "Judge not lest ye can be judged".

(Eeew, I just quoted the Bible...Oh well, keep your friends close and your enemies closer, eh?)

 

[Pessimism]

Thanks for answering Tyra.

I have another question: Does anyone know how to tell someone who is homosexual to get off your back? I had this guy come into where I work earlier....and he would not get a fucking hint...so yeah, advice would be appreciated!

 

[Tyra]

You'd be suprised. I don't think anyone is as cynical about christmas as I am. I actually sit down calculating all the money im expecting to get during christmas to see how much nerd-stuff/booze I can afford, or if I can get that stereo I have allways wanted. I am corrupted to the core.

On the other hand; besides summer-break, when I can work, christmas is my biggest source of income.
quote]

Yeah, I know...to some, money's just another form of religion...
What I wanted to accomplish was just that people think about why it is that there's a feast there at that time of year whether you live in a religious country or not. I mean, statistically, Sweden is one of the most secularised countries in the world, but sure as sin, there has been a feast celebrated at that time of the year for as long as anyone can remember. So, to this day, even though people no longer believe in the faith that the holiday is named for, whether it's "jul" or "Christmas" is not important, we celebrate it.

Krigloch originally stated that it was about presents and food, and then added "For us its basically about being with family". Well, that's exactly how it started - with food, gifts and kin. Then some dude discovered that "if I give a gift, he has to give one that's better or equal in value back, or he is looked down upon. So if I throw a really expensive party and hand out really expensive gifts, all these people that I invite will be tied to me, beholden or indebted to me. They will then have to do my bidding. I will be their boss, they will have to defend me and expand my territory, because if I am to throw bigger parties than them, I have to grow crops on purpose, which takes up land and labour force..." and on and on. At a very early point, religion was then used to reinforce the rulers' right to ownership of the land etc. And so our culture has evolved, and a feast that was about feeding your family and giving them gifts evolved into Hrothgars feast, where Beowulf became indebted to him and had to kill Grendel, to Christmas, where we all become indebted to Jehova for the gift of his son, and so on and so forth. It's still all about gifts, family and food, but it is also something much, much bigger than that!