Viking mythology and all that goes with it

[Tyra]

Knarfster:
The original story (Prose Edda) is here:
Northvegr - Prose Edda - Brodeur Trans.
If it's too disinteresting for you to decipher, here is a modern version of it:
The Harvest God, Skegga's Edda

Santa: You do know you can read the whole damn thing for free at Northvegr.org, right?

Pagan: It was -20 here, which would be OK if it weren't for the damn wind. Now it's supposed to flood, because it's warming up, so we're expecting rain and the snow will melt at the same time. Fucking West Coast Winter. I'm homesick. And sober. Damn it.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

Tyra, what do you do for Yule?

 

[Tyra]

In what way? Like, at home with the kids, or at the ritual or?
At home with the kids we basically do the same most other people around here would at this time of year, since 90% of the traditions of Christmas is borrowed from pagan tradition (including the date). No big deal there. I just don't put an angel at the top of my tree, and such, I use more heathen decorations. I guess I also decorate more outside than most, because originally, the tree sat outside, and you are supposed to make sure to be extra generous to the wild animals in supplying them with food. You are definitively supposed to leave feed for Sleipnir, so that Odin does not have to come in your house whilst he is out doing the wild hunt! That would just be rude, and he'd give you what for if you did.
Traditional Swedish Christmas fare is basically heathen, ham for example, so that also isn't much different. My husband and I do like to put out a big spread regardless of how many of us actually are there to eat. The meal is really the main focus of the day. We celebrate on the 24th, though, rather than the 25th, and we don't read the Christams story. The reason for the date is that I grew up that way, but also because heathen or not, this is the day of the week that we have time off (we don't necessarily get the solstice off, and even then, we do a ritual on that day, so it's nice to have a day just to celebrate with the kids w/o squishing too many things into one day). On that day we have the big meal, and after that we open our gifts and the children put out the Norns' porridge for the landwights outside according to Swedish tradition (one of those things that all Swedes do but they don't realize that they're actually leaving an offering just like we do at blòt).
It is important to me that at this time of year, we "do the Norse thing" by providing hospitality to others - it's extra nice to have friends around for this meal. Because my kids' daddy is Canadian and we live in Canada, we also have a few token (dollar store) gifts and candies in their stockings for the morning of the 25th.
The midwinter blòt is held at the solstice with my kindred, or, if we really can't get away, at home alone, and it just follows the general guidelines for any blòt, really.

 

[Knarfi]

Thanks tyra, today at school i found the 2nd link, and something like the 1st wich is a bit different (like thou hast no knowledge = you have no knowledge)
so, thanks

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

So you mean to tell me that you DON'T go to the mall and have your pictures taken etc?

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

post #563

thats cool.
christmas for us is presents and food. not religious at all.

 

[Tyra]

So you mean to tell me that you DON'T go to the mall and have your pictures taken etc?

Nooooooo. Yuck. I have done that a couple of times, just because my mother, the childrens' grandmother, lives so far away and it is something fun to send to Mormor, you know, but I hate the mall and all its trappings, especially at Christmas, so I'd rather stay away.

My mother-in-law invariably tries to throw a nice Christian Christmas party, complete with reading the nativity story out of the Bible to the kids. I am starting to feel kind of bad for her, because it is so very important to her, but none of the grandkids give a toss. They're too young to sit still, too young to understand the language, and two of them are autistic (=will never be able to do either one of the above). It probably doesn't help when we, their partens, just giggle hysterically and try to peg eachother in the head with various items, as the kids pull over the Christmas tree, eat boogers and stick their fingers in their ears whilst singing loudly and rolling the eyes (the latter kid was mine) as Granny's trying to be reverend. It is all mayhem, just like it should be when you get a huge family and all the grandkids and great-grandkids in one house at th same time, fill them up with sugar and tell them they have to wait to open their presents!

 

[Tyra]

thats cool.
christmas for us is presents and food. not religious at all.

...which leads to an interseting question: if it not a religious act, why do you open presents and throw a feast? I mean, the symbolism comes from somewhere, and some of the symbols are so old that people who have no religion still use them. Like the tree, and the shiny balls and decorations in the tree, most of the foods etc. The feast goes back as far back as the mesolithic era (maybe even earlier, paleolithic, but that's more difficult to prove), whih is looooong before Christianity was invented.
I'd be curious to find out how many Swedes today know why their decorations are made out of straw, and why in heavens name Christian people to this day put out a goat made out of straw. You can buy those at any IKEA in all the countries in the world that have an IKEA, and a lot of people do. Little do they know they just bought a replica of Thor's goat...

 

[Ikki]

...which leads to an interseting question: if it not a religious act, why do you open presents and throw a feast? I mean, the symbolism comes from somewhere, and some of the symbols are so old that people who have no religion still use them. Like the tree, and the shiny balls and decorations in the tree, most of the foods etc. The feast goes back as far back as the mesolithic era (maybe even earlier, paleolithic, but that's more difficult to prove), whih is looooong before Christianity was invented.
I'd be curious to find out how many Swedes today know why their decorations are made out of straw, and why in heavens name Christian people to this day put out a goat made out of straw. You can buy those at any IKEA in all the countries in the world that have an IKEA, and a lot of people do. Little do they know they just bought a replica of Thor's goat...

clap clap...Tyra, would you be so nice and tell the story about it? pleaseeee....

btw, i guess it´s not new but i hate xmas time, everybody pretending to be so fucking happy when it has been always the saddest time of the year for me..nothing to do with religion though as i dont follow any but my own, but it makes me sick how it has become..everybody paying millions for food you can eat all year cheaper, buying gifts almost no one need/wants, streesing themselves...puaghh, and it´s coming!!!...

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

...which leads to an interseting question: if it not a religious act, why do you open presents and throw a feast? I mean, the symbolism comes from somewhere, and some of the symbols are so old that people who have no religion still use them. Like the tree, and the shiny balls and decorations in the tree, most of the foods etc. The feast goes back as far back as the mesolithic era (maybe even earlier, paleolithic, but that's more difficult to prove), whih is looooong before Christianity was invented.
I'd be curious to find out how many Swedes today know why their decorations are made out of straw, and why in heavens name Christian people to this day put out a goat made out of straw. You can buy those at any IKEA in all the countries in the world that have an IKEA, and a lot of people do. Little do they know they just bought a replica of Thor's goat...

I dont really know.. tradition I guess.
Although I'd rather not get anything. and I hate buying gifts for people.
For us its basically about being with family.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

... or put the spearhead of Gungnir on their tree. And so on.

 

[Tyra]

I dont really know.. tradition I guess.
Although I'd rather not get anything. and I hate buying gifts for people.
For us its basically about being with family.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but really, when you think about it, the fact that you have a feast right at that time of year is done for a reason. If you go way back in history, you'll find that people all over the world have held a large celebration at that time of year long before it also became a Christian holy day.
In the end, though, I think you've hit the nail on its head regardless, cuz really, when you really, really, really boil it down to (pre)historic practise and the very first original feasts, what it all ends up being is a celebration for, by and with the kin or the clan (i.e. the family) like you said.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

Yeah, I know what you mean, but really, when you think about it, the fact that you have a feast right at that time of year is done for a reason. If you go way back in history, you'll find that people all over the world have held a large celebration at that time of year long before it also became a Christian holy day.
In the end, though, I think you've hit the nail on its head regardless, cuz really, when you really, really, really boil it down to (pre)historic practise and the very first original feasts, what it all ends up being is a celebration for, by and with the kin or the clan (i.e. the family) like you said.

yeah its just another thing that pisses me off about christianity. jesus was born on teh 25th of december. dur dur

 

[Tyra]

clap clap...Tyra, would you be so nice and tell the story about it? pleaseeee....quote]

In what sense do you mean? Like, how we can trace it, or what we think it meant, why it was done or..? There are about a thousand different angles to approach this from. I am just starting my thesis on how the commensal feast - IMO - moved and shaped the evolution of human culture in the Viking Age, but there are huge amounts of stuff written about this subject regarding the eras before then (paleolithic, mesolithic, neolithic, copper age, bronze age and vendel time). I am just trying to fill in the void with my paper.

It was through the ritual feast that many cultures organized (and still today, organize) their societies. The feast made it possible to uphold law and order because it re-negotiated and verified rank and gender roles. The higher rank a chief has/had, the bigger the feast he is/was expected to throw. To do so, he had to acquire labour to collect and hunt and prepare the food. He paid said labour by feeding them at the feast, and at the feast, he assigned rank to each member by the way people were seated etc. In the end, that requires an even bigger feast, which requires more labour, which requires more people, which requires a surplus of food and goods, which requires farming - and there you have it. We've gone from hunter-gatherers to farmers and suddenly the whole course of history has been altered. That's a really very extremely abbreviated version, obviously, but basically that's what the archaeology, anthropology and ethnology shows. The ON texts (not to mention Beowulf!!) are full of rules and examples of how to seat people according to rank, how to elect leaders according to how he throws a feast, how the warriors are to be seated as well as the guests and so on. The pivotal difference is that in Germanic societies, it seems that only a woman can ratify all the things that have been agreed upon at the feast, including rank of both her husband and his warriors. If she chose not to do so, the whole thing fails, which is aof vital importance, because it makes a Norse woman a terribly powerful person of immense value not just to her husband but to her warriors, her kin and her household.

Sorry Knarfster, I know this is too damn long... It's a big subject.

 

[Ikki]

Ok, thanks, then , that feast was normally held on december? or feasts were held all year long but only the one in december survived till now? whicn in case of vikings i guess would be because at winter they were not sailing, and all the farming stuff was supposed to end at the end of summer, and probably they had already processed flour and so for winter...

more questions: after that is became a pagan party?those first feasts?
and what about the tree you mention, why decorate trees?...

by the way, your thesis sounds pretty cool,once you finish and you publish and get your megaphd´s degree, you could put the link,sounds pretty interesting...and thaks for the answer, i kind of feeling like my 3 years old cousin = why?why?why?

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

Prostitution in Heathen Germania/Scandinavia? Existant? Tolerated?

 

[Tyra]

Ok, thanks, then , that feast was normally held on december? or feasts were held all year long but only the one in december survived till now? whicn in case of vikings i guess would be because at winter they were not sailing, and all the farming stuff was supposed to end at the end of summer, and probably they had already processed flour and so for winter...

more questions: after that is became a pagan party?those first feasts?
and what about the tree you mention, why decorate trees?...

by the way, your thesis sounds pretty cool,once you finish and you publish and get your megaphd´s degree, you could put the link,sounds pretty interesting...and thaks for the answer, i kind of feeling like my 3 years old cousin = why?why?why?

Well, all I am saying is that many people, such as the Celts, the Greek, the Romans, and the Germanic tribes, used to celebrate a religious feast in the month of December. That is becuase of the solstice falling at that time. Many of the same religions held feasts at the other solstice, summer solstice, and the solar equinox in spring and fall, too. Some of those feasts are still celebrated, such as in Sweden, where a big feast is held at midsummer. Many other feasts have survived into modern day, but under other names or under Christian names, such as Halloween being All Saints Day or Day of the Dead. One way to Christianize people is to park feasts over top of their own feasts, so that they won't miss the feasts or have a chance to celebrate both.
As for the tree, I was refering to the Christmas tree, which also is an old pagan symbol that was prevalent in many pre-Christians religions, but was adopted by them.
Explain to me what you mean here: "after that is became a pagan party?those first feasts?" I'll reply if I can.

 

[Tyra]

Prostitution in Heathen Germania/Scandinavia? Existant? Tolerated?

Well, you have to remember that they had thralls and ambatts. You don't really need to pay a hooker if you already bought and paid for a woman to clean and cook for you. You then own her and can do what you like with her. There were rules regarding what was socially acceptable regarding how you could treat a woman, but they did not apply to women slaves and they did not apply to the women whose homes you raided. It would, for example, not have been OK to rape a Norsewoman, but when you went viking, this happened, and you would have been punished for raping a slave only if you actually made her useless or if she was somehow of extra value to the owner. I am not sure how those same rules would have applied if a viking was abroad and felt he needed to get laid.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

Satisfying answer.

 

[Tyra]

OK. I don't think I have ever read or heard about prostitutes in Norse society, and the only way I can explain that is that 1. they had ambatts 2. there were rules for who could fuck who, why and when, and 3. there probably was not a financial need for a woman to become a prostitute. Women were either cared for by their kin/husband or they were independently wealthy (Norse women had inheritance rights that they lost with the arrival of the New Faith, and so could be independently wealthy) or they were ambatts. My understanding is that before one got married, one could be handfasted. During the period of handfasting, the man and woman lived pretty much as if they were married, which included having sexual relations. If both parties were not happy with how the trial period (appx a year) had gone, the couple would not get married, and both were free to walk away as if it had never happened. If there were children, they would be cared for as if they were a legitamate child from a married couple. Again, this would cause a lesser need for someone to want to use the services of a whore. Mind you, there are plenty of examples of the ambatts being used as one would use a whore in the lore. Ibn Fahadlan complains that the Rus men would take pleasure in fornicating with their ambatts in public, so that all could see.
It was not a good thing for a woman to be thought of as a loose woman, as we can see at Aegir's feast, where Loke accuses Freja of being a slut. It was punishable by law to call women and men nasty names, so that would not have been done lightly. One could be put to death for even insinuating that a man had behaved "in an unmanly way", for example.