Viking mythology and all that goes with it
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Koli_Shieldbreaker_Elysson
New Metal Member
- Jan 3, 2007
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Heimskringla, Orkneyinga saga, Laexdaela saga are the best, in my humble opinion, of the saga's attributed to Snorri. The incomparable Edda, from which i learned Skaldic poetry, is the ultimate on the totality of Norse religion i have yet found. As for the greatest "hero"...that would have to fall to Fair Hair. 
Runesinger
Member
For an English translation of the Poetic Edda, I like the Henry Addams Bellowes translation. It does a good job of keeping the Skaldic poetical structures, kennings and other symbolism. Moreover, it is in the public domain, so it is available for FREE. You can read it here on the Internet Sacred Text Archive:
The Poetic Edda Index
Runesinger
You can read it here on the Internet Sacred Text Archive:The Poetic Edda Index
Runesinger
Sleipnir
Thorsmadr
For an English translation of the Poetic Edda, I like the Henry Addams Bellowes translation. It does a good job of keeping the Skaldic poetical structures, kennings and other symbolism. Moreover, it is in the public domain, so it is available for FREE.
The Poetic Edda Index
Runesinger
The Dronke and Thorpe versions are not bad either and I personally like Hollanders translation myself. The one thing I found odd in the Bellows version was this stanza in Lokasenna...
30. "Be silent, Freyja! for fully I know thee,
Sinless thou art not thyself;
Of the gods and elves who are gathered here,
Each one as thy lover has lain."
Why did he mention sin??? No other translator even comes close to using that word. You can also find that translation and others at Northvegr.
poetic edda - Google Search
Sleipnir
Thorsmadr
As for the greatest "hero"...that would have to fall to Fair Hair.
::coughs::Egil::coughs::
Bates
Swamp Yankee
I've got the Hollander version myself, it seems pretty decently done, so far. (Still only on the Havamal, too many distractions to be able to just sit and read for long ). Been reading bits and pieces of the sagas on Northvegr, too, but, yet again, too many distractions.
). Been reading bits and pieces of the sagas on Northvegr, too, but, yet again, too many distractions.
Tyra
Member
Yeah, well, this is one of those things that Runesinger and I have been discussing a lot lately. I get in shit all the time with a certain group of people, because I keep pointing out to them that you loose things in translation. Then they get mad at me for saying that, because they think I am trying to tell them you cannot be an anglophon and asatru, which is not at all what I mean to say. Since you asked, and generally do not get mad at me for answering a question as asked, here it goes, just don't kill the messenger: When I look at the particular word that Bellows has translated as "sinless" in the various translations in the various languages that I speak, I can clearly see what has happened. Bellows couldn't translate word for word or he'd have lost the flow and the meaning, so in a sentence like this, instead of saying something like "You are not free of guilt", the translator has chosen to say the same thing in a different way - "You are not guiltless" - he's used the opposite word to explain the original word, turning the sentence around but making the outcome the same. That works with a word like "guilt", in the example I just used, but it didn't work with the word he needed to use. The word he needed to use takes on a different meaning when you turn it like that, to it's opposite, in English. The word in Swedish is "vanära". Ära means honour, and adding the prefix "van-" to something means one has made something bad (pejorative) as in dis- or mis- in English. One uses the prefix in words such as vanpryda=make ugly, from van- + pryda, which means to decorate, or vanvård= negelct, from van- +vårda= take care of tend to, or vantrivsel= discomfort, from van- + trivsel= comfort, vanföreställing= delusion, fallacy from van- + föreställning, idea, concept. "You are not entirely free of dishonour" would work, sort of, but it still doesn't give an exact translation, and it ruins the flow of the verse. I have a feeling that in the day and age that Bellows used the word "sinless", it would probably have been the word more commonly used in this context, but in yours and my context, in our day and age, it makes no sense, because we (you and I) have assigned religious meaning to the word "sin". "Sin" as you and I interpret the word, doesn't exist in asatru, but I think Bellows meant it in an un-religious sense, as in "she is not entirely free free of guilt and her name is not completely un-smudged". You just can't translate it straight across from one language to the other, and Bellows has failed to find a term that doesn't come with a bunch of luggage of its own. This is one of the reasons that the Thorpe version is said to be the "truest" to the original. He is more difficult to unserstand because his language is more difficult, but he also doesn't loose as much in translation, since he's apparently gone out of his way not to loose any of the lays meaning, by way of using correct and Christian-cultural untainted words. It's kind of hard to explain, since you have to speak more than two languages to really see the difference. And Runesinger, on a personal note, and you'll know what I mean - you can't be lazy and "only" read one version, then add a sprinkling of Thorson or McNallen to explain what you didn't understand!
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Can't be lazy? Uh oh!
What happened to the drinking, and fighting, and stuff like that to keep us simple folk occupied?
What happened to the drinking, and fighting, and stuff like that to keep us simple folk occupied?
Tyra
Member
Hahah! No, I didn't mean it in that sense, it was in regards to some issues that Runesinger and I have been discussing for some time now, off list.
Runesinger
Member
To defer to the Old Norse (Sophus Bugge), and my own stilted translation
Þegi þv, Freyia! (Silence thou Freyja)
þic cann ec fvllgerva, (this can I prove)
era þer vamma vant: (Thou are not without shame)
asa oc alfa, (Aesir and Elves)
er her inni ero, (who here within are)
hverr hefir þinn hór veriþ. (each has been thy sex-thing (boy-toy?))
I think the term "vamma vant" is somewhat equivalent to "vanära" in Swedish. Although the term "vamma vant" in this context seems to hold a connotation of loss of hammingja. Loki is not only insulting, but also appears to be trying to take away Freyja's powers on another level.
Thorpe is also an excellent translation for accuracy, though I still like Bellowes because he worked very hard to retain the rhythm and alliterative meter in his translation. The Skaldic meter is very important in understanding the weight of various words in the sagas.
In my own opinion Hollander's translation is a big steaming pile of poo. He deliberately uses less accurate words in his translation, so the fact that he plagiarized from earlier (and more scholarly) translators will not so obvious. He doesn't grasp the mystical symbols and kennings in the verses the way Bellowes does...and his annotations are not as helpful...one of those lazy people that Tina spoke of, so common in the University of Texas Germanic Studies faculty (Thorsson, you know who you are...)
Runesinger
Tyra
Member
Bates
Swamp Yankee
On to Bates' question of the day, which may or may not be strictly mythology related... what sort of bows did the Vikings use? Did the uses longbows like the English did not much later, flatbows like the Sami , laminated recurves like the Mongolians? I know they knew of the recurves, they had for a long time, they were mentioned in the Hervarar saga (Don't be that impressed, any idiot can read that off of Wikipedia, and this particular one is fond of reading Wikipedia).
But I couldn't seem to find anything that detailed what kind they used.
But I couldn't seem to find anything that detailed what kind they used.
Tyra
Member
F***! I don't speak English well enough to answer that one... I'll have to ask someone for the right word...maybe...
Longbows were used - see I know the word for that - but also something that would translate as "flatbow". Does that makes sense in English? I suppose one could pick up a bow during an overseas raid, too, which would have been of some atypical sort. For example, on the continent, there were bows designed specifically for mounted warriors. We'd call them riding bows in Swedish. Most Norse did not fight from horseback, though, so that would not have been very useful.
I'm not an expert on bows, but I do know that the Norse prefered bows that were made from one piece of wood (as a difference to a laminate). Sorry about the English...hope it makes sense!
Longbows were used - see I know the word for that - but also something that would translate as "flatbow". Does that makes sense in English? I suppose one could pick up a bow during an overseas raid, too, which would have been of some atypical sort. For example, on the continent, there were bows designed specifically for mounted warriors. We'd call them riding bows in Swedish. Most Norse did not fight from horseback, though, so that would not have been very useful.
I'm not an expert on bows, but I do know that the Norse prefered bows that were made from one piece of wood (as a difference to a laminate). Sorry about the English...hope it makes sense!
Runesinger
Member
Ok, now I'm getting into Tyra's area of expertise (archaeology), but I'll give it a go.
What you call the "English" longbow is actually the Saxon longbow. As you may recall, the Saxons were the first of the Norse people to migrate (that's the nice word for 'invade') to Great Britain. There bow design came from what is now a part of Denmark. The longbow is the the ideal weapon for sea-going invaders (there, I've said it ). The longbow has a greater range than an equivalent recurve bow. This would give them an edge in attacking the shoreline, as they could begin firing arrows as soon as they got in range.
There have been a number of longbows found in excavations in Viking settlements. Here is a webpage about them:
The Medieval English Longbow
The artifact that interested me was the Farm Torshov Viking Longbow (located at the Viking Ship Room, University Museum of National Antiquities of Norway, University of Oslo). And no, Tyra, not just because it's Norwegian. This beast was a longbow reinforced with iron bands. I thought, Damn! a longbow with iron reinforcement? A regular longbow is hard enough to draw, but an iron reinforced one? That was some bad-@$$ Viking bowman that used that bow!
Of course, a Viking could have used any style of bow, depending on what corpse he got it from
Runesinger
What you call the "English" longbow is actually the Saxon longbow. As you may recall, the Saxons were the first of the Norse people to migrate (that's the nice word for 'invade') to Great Britain. There bow design came from what is now a part of Denmark. The longbow is the the ideal weapon for sea-going invaders (there, I've said it
). The longbow has a greater range than an equivalent recurve bow. This would give them an edge in attacking the shoreline, as they could begin firing arrows as soon as they got in range.There have been a number of longbows found in excavations in Viking settlements. Here is a webpage about them:
The Medieval English Longbow
The artifact that interested me was the Farm Torshov Viking Longbow (located at the Viking Ship Room, University Museum of National Antiquities of Norway, University of Oslo). And no, Tyra, not just because it's Norwegian. This beast was a longbow reinforced with iron bands. I thought, Damn! a longbow with iron reinforcement? A regular longbow is hard enough to draw, but an iron reinforced one? That was some bad-@$$ Viking bowman that used that bow!
Of course, a Viking could have used any style of bow, depending on what corpse he got it from
Runesinger
Tyra
Member
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Ahh, thanks. I read about that bow somewhere, but I couldn't find anything that had enough detail to tell me what style of bow. The difference, at least in English, between a longbow and a flatbow is the shape. Longbows have a D-shaped cross-section, and flatbows are shaped more like a rectangle. Flat is actually a bit better, with almost all wood except yew. Archery's a hobby of mine, I wasn't trying to melt your brain in revenge, honest.
I'd also be really curious to see what kind of arrows could survive being fired from a 200lb draw bow.
I'd also be really curious to see what kind of arrows could survive being fired from a 200lb draw bow.
Tyra
Member
Most of the arrows disappear in the archaeological material. The points still remain, though, as they are not made of perishable materials.
My eldest daughter is into archery (quite good at it, too) which got my husband interested. It was him I was gunna ask about the English words, but you seem to have understood what I meant anyhow, right?
I might be able to find some pics...
Edit: Flatbow (flatbåge) a la Viking to be seen here: Filip Fejare
also the third picture down on this page: Pilbågar 1
Here's what remains of the real thing when we find it:
Sökresultat bilder | Sök i samlingarna | Historiska museet
Drawing of arrow point of choice for most Norse arrows, from what I understand:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/Rygh/R539.jpg
Or better yet, the real things out of the ground:
Sökresultat bilder | Sök i samlingarna | Historiska museet -there are a total of 76 pics, all "viking" age.
My eldest daughter is into archery (quite good at it, too) which got my husband interested. It was him I was gunna ask about the English words, but you seem to have understood what I meant anyhow, right?
I might be able to find some pics...
Edit: Flatbow (flatbåge) a la Viking to be seen here: Filip Fejare
also the third picture down on this page: Pilbågar 1
Here's what remains of the real thing when we find it:
Sökresultat bilder | Sök i samlingarna | Historiska museet
Drawing of arrow point of choice for most Norse arrows, from what I understand:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/Rygh/R539.jpg
Or better yet, the real things out of the ground:
Sökresultat bilder | Sök i samlingarna | Historiska museet -there are a total of 76 pics, all "viking" age.
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Yeah, those are what I meant by flatbow... mainly of elm and ash. Cool. I'm not a particularly great archer, but, well, it keeps me mostly out of trouble.
Tyra
Member
Oh, crummy - the links don't work for the archaeological pics. Dang. Not that the stone axes on those pics aren't nice (actually, they're quite impressive), they're just a few thousand years earlier and a different sort of weapon... Sorry!
Bates
Swamp Yankee
I found the arrowheads... what's the difference between lans and lanspets? Haven't managed to puzzle out or luck into the bows, tho Or maybe I did and didn't recognize it.
Edit: Ahh, there we go, pilbåge. Cool
Or maybe I did and didn't recognize it.Edit: Ahh, there we go, pilbåge. Cool
