Viking mythology and all that goes with it

I'm curious as to how they figured out that Ríg was Heimdall. I like to puzzle things out for myself, but I can't seem to find the pieces to the puzzle. I'm fiarly certain the storytellers didn't just arbitrarily say, "Oh yeah, when we say Ríg, we mean Heimdall."

In the Voluspo of the Poetic Edda, the Volva or wise woman addresses her prophecy "To the holy races of Heimdall's sons, both high and low." This is a clear reference of Heimdall engendering the different classes of mankind "both high and low."

Oh yeah, to Pagan Blood's comment about Kon Ungr. I found this same parallel with the Brahmin class. Kon was especially noted by Heimdall/Rig because rather than waiting for Heimdall to teach him about the ways of his class and station (Jarl), he began to seek Heimdall out and question him further. For this reason, Heimdall taught him the deep wisdom and the mysteries of the runes.

I always find it amusing how folks who wish to gain the knowledge of the runes think that Odin is the way of learn them. It is Heimdall that teaches about the runes, not Odin.

Runesinger
 
So....then how did Odin get them?
My real question is this - are there multiple ways to learn the runes in the texts?
 
I still didn't really start to get into the "runes-thing" ... to me it's still just another alphabet, and I'm still wondering if people aren't interpretating too much into it nowadays ... maybe they are just letters, and Odin reaching out to get them and bringing them to us is just another way of saying that he brought knowledge to us.
To me Odin mainly represents knowledge. And to maintain knowledge (and give it to others) it is best to write it down. So you need an alphabet.
I know it's a very simple way to think about it, and it might be disappointing, because there's no magic or mystical stuff involved, but that's how I like to see things (simple and clear).


But I still have a lot of questions about Hel ... it often seems to me like Hel is really like the christian Hell. Maybe instead of beeing too hot it is too cold, but anyway: it's a place where you don't want to end up.
But since we are no warriors who will die in battle (at least I hope I won't, and as far as I know even back in time real vikings who went out to fight were rather a minority), I can't really believe that if you don't die in battle, you will end up in a world of pain.
So my question is: where DO you end up? What happens to kind and good people when they die?
I'm sure they will not end up beeing punished, but I also couldn't find an answer so far. Except I remember that I read somewhere (on a website, so who knows what it means) that Hel is judging the dead, and then sends them to ... wherever they deserve to be.
I know about unpleasant places in Hel where "bad guys" might end up, but what about normal or good people?

I know, somehow this sounds a lot like Petrus standing on the gates of heaven, deciding who will get through or not ... so what's the REAL answer?
 
In the Voluspo of the Poetic Edda, the Volva or wise woman addresses her prophecy "To the holy races of Heimdall's sons, both high and low." This is a clear reference of Heimdall engendering the different classes of mankind "both high and low."

Oh yeah, to Pagan Blood's comment about Kon Ungr. I found this same parallel with the Brahmin class. Kon was especially noted by Heimdall/Rig because rather than waiting for Heimdall to teach him about the ways of his class and station (Jarl), he began to seek Heimdall out and question him further. For this reason, Heimdall taught him the deep wisdom and the mysteries of the runes.

I always find it amusing how folks who wish to gain the knowledge of the runes think that Odin is the way of learn them. It is Heimdall that teaches about the runes, not Odin.

Runesinger

You know too many interesting things... it makes me want to steal your brains! :p

I still didn't really start to get into the "runes-thing" ... to me it's still just another alphabet, and I'm still wondering if people aren't interpretating too much into it nowadays ... maybe they are just letters, and Odin reaching out to get them and bringing them to us is just another way of saying that he brought knowledge to us.
To me Odin mainly represents knowledge. And to maintain knowledge (and give it to others) it is best to write it down. So you need an alphabet.
I know it's a very simple way to think about it, and it might be disappointing, because there's no magic or mystical stuff involved, but that's how I like to see things (simple and clear).


But I still have a lot of questions about Hel ... it often seems to me like Hel is really like the christian Hell. Maybe instead of beeing too hot it is too cold, but anyway: it's a place where you don't want to end up.
But since we are no warriors who will die in battle (at least I hope I won't, and as far as I know even back in time real vikings who went out to fight were rather a minority), I can't really believe that if you don't die in battle, you will end up in a world of pain.
So my question is: where DO you end up? What happens to kind and good people when they die?
I'm sure they will not end up beeing punished, but I also couldn't find an answer so far. Except I remember that I read somewhere (on a website, so who knows what it means) that Hel is judging the dead, and then sends them to ... wherever they deserve to be.
I know about unpleasant places in Hel where "bad guys" might end up, but what about normal or good people?

I know, somehow this sounds a lot like Petrus standing on the gates of heaven, deciding who will get through or not ... so what's the REAL answer?

My understanding is there were parts of Hel that weren't so bad, but any real warrior would still rather go to Vallhalla. The rest of that is beyond what I know :)
 
Bates, don't steal her brains. I saw them first.

F.Slim, you don't necessarily go anywhere bad just because you don't die in battle. Half the warriors also go to Freya's hall, and there are different halls depending on who you are and how you die (such as one place for unmarried women who were brave) but you go to a bad place if you are an oathbreaker or murderer. Hel is depicted as cold, damp and alone, as a difference to Hell, which is hot and crowded. The idea is that the worst thing that can happen for a human is to be all alone, cast out of society. Picture yourself out on the tundra, with nothing but snow as far as the eye can see, picture no food or drink, no fire, no clothes. That's how the worst part of Hel is depicted - basically, you're uthgard until Ragnarök. It is not important how it looks or whatever, the idea is to invoke the feeling of being uthgard, which is what happens to you in this world if you murder in cold blood or if you break oaths.

In worrying about where you go after you die, you kind of miss the point of asatru a bit. The whole idea is that THIS is your life, NOW. The Norns decide your faith anyhow, so you'll end up where you're supposed to end up regardless. The point is to be respectful, honorable and live with integrity in THIS life, which doesn't necesserily impact the next. THIS is the part that's important. What's important after you die is if your name is remembered with respect by those that come after. You are not truly dead until nonbody speaks of you anymore. When your name is forgotten, you are forgotten, so it's our job here and now to remember and do honour to our ancestors in THIS life. The afterlife is not a place where you go to get your reward for having been good in this life - you're supposed to "be good" in this life and reap the rewards in this life. The idea of being good whilst living a horrid life, repenting your sins on your death bed so that you can wake up and reap your reward in paradise, is a Christian idea. In asatru, you don't know when the Norns are going to cut your lifethread, and so you must "behave" at all times so that you don't die the wrong way, and you must be good at all times so that you are remembered after you die, in this world and by your people, as a man of honour, respect and integrity.

Sermon over - sorry it was long, but the question covers a very deep issue that so many misundertand in a fundamental way, because most of us are raised in a Christian culture. It is also one that made it easier for Christians to get people to convert in the past, so it's important to understand today.
 
But what of my question Tyra? Are their multiple ways to learn the runes in the texts? Runesinger said Rig was the way to learn them (which I honestly didn't know), but then that begs the question of how odin was able to attain them - obviously this would show their are multiple ways, but is this expressed vehemently in any of the texts?
 
Bear in mind while reading this that I'm just trying to paraphrase the relevant parts of the Eddas, and I may have the runes and the songs (that Oden learned when he sacrificed himself) mixed up... both the translations I have seem to call them both things, and I'm not sure I'm interpreting it correctly. :)

But here's how I think it goes... Oden created/discovered their runes from their primal source. He's the one who grasps the true meaning and power of all the runes. The other Aesir, the alfar, the dwarves, and the Jotun all have some knowledge of the runes, and through Heimdall/Rig a portion of that knowledge has passed down to us mortal men. The runes have both mundane and magical applications, anyone can use the runes for the mundane purpose as a writing system, but it takes special knowledge to use them for magic. Quite a few of the higher peoples (i.e., everyone except us wee mortals) know at least a couple of the runes in the magical sense, and Heimdall is the one who is most likely to teach them to those of his children that he favors. But Oden is the only one who knows the secret of all the runes, and there's at least one he has told no one of (Except possibly Baldr on his pyre, and maybe Frigg, I'm not totally sure how to interpret that stanza of the RunatalsÞattr)

Heimdall teaching the runes to men and Oden learning the runes aren't the same thing at all. Heimdall passes the knowledge he gained (presumably from Oden) on, while Oden discovered the knowledge in the first place.

As for the rune magic itself, I've not read anything on that yet, so if you want to know that kinda stuff, you'll have to hope someone with better knowledge then I answers. :)
 
im diverting the present discussion again for little technicalities. im not drawing the basic lines on the canvas before having these questions answered.
1 honor seat is to the left or right of Hel?
2 Hel's mother is a giant. does it make of her a very tall and big person?
3 Baldr and Hermod being Oden's sons, are they talla nd big as gods? and compared to Hel, are they taller or smaller?

thank you for answering
 
But what of my question Tyra? Are their multiple ways to learn the runes in the texts? Runesinger said Rig was the way to learn them (which I honestly didn't know), but then that begs the question of how odin was able to attain them - obviously this would show their are multiple ways, but is this expressed vehemently in any of the texts?
Sorry dude, I got sidetracked! I don't really remember if there is too much other than what Bates already mentioned in the lore regarding the runes. Runesinger would be the person to ask, cuz she's really good at that sort of thing. I do, on the other hand, know what the oral tradition says. It says that the runes came from Odin to us, but also what Bates said, how it is brought to the people by Rig. Odin "hung on the windswept world tree whose roots no one knows. For nine whole days and nine whole nights he hung there on Gungnir, his spear" and so on - I believe you can read the rest of the story in the now semi-famous e-mail that I once wrote to my beloved brother, now referred to as "1000 years of oppression". I got those words out of the Edda, and then added a bit of creative license to them...
The thing to remember is to always put things into (pre)historic context. Odin was the god of the chieftains, the upper class. Later on, with the arrival of Christianity, kings and queens were ordained by god (they still are, according to some - look at a Canadian nickel if you doubt me), but in Iron Age Scandianvia, kings were still ordained by the people. To become the leader, you had to be successful in war and raiding. To be successful in war and raiding, you had to be close to Odin. Successful leadership was often associated with Odin, and as this went on for generations, eventually Odin became a god popular with the socialites, whereas Heimdal and Balder and Frey, and especially Thor and Freya were common man's gods. My thinking is that people probably needed to understand why common man would have been given the runes by Heimdal, but the higher ups had Odin's ear, and would have received his wisdom from The High One himself. We're supposed to learn things from the lore, but we're supposed to learn things in an Iron Age Scandinavian context, right? It needed to be explained why there were social differences, and this is one of those times.
I strongly agree that the magical thing with the runes has becomes a bit over emphasized here in North America. I think that is because we get so many "converts" from other religions, especially wicca. Many of those religions are "prone to spellcasting" and such, and are very much into magical things. For those people, the magic then becomes the focus of asatru. That is not, IMHO, how it supposed to be. All the lore cautions you strongly against using magic, unless you have been very well trained in seid or galder, because every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you use magic, you can exepct to pay for it dearly. Very few have the ability to use it wisely. Prime examples of this is Leif Eriksson's sister Freydis, and Erik Bloodaxe's wife Gunnhild, both of whom brought about the destruction of their bloodline by using seid unwisely.
Runesinger and i have discussed this at lenght, and I keep saying that this is not a religion for "lazy" people, and it is not a religion that does well with instant gratification. You cannot sit there and say "Woe is me, I am so broke, I wish I had some money to pay the bills" and then solve that problem by casting a spell. What you need to do is get busy and apply to every job you can find until you wear out the soles of your shoes and then some. You can strenghten your resolve by invoking the right rune, because it makes you feel confident, and confidence is good in any job interview. But you still have to do the work. It may make you feel better to cast a spell against someone that's done you wrong, but it won't really help if you don't follow through and act on your intentions. So, yes, I agree that laying such a heavy focus on the magical aspects of the runes is a bit off, BUT the fact of the matter is that my ancestors were fornd of using runes for divination and for invocing the protection of the gods. Each rune falls in a specific aett, each aett belongs to a specific god or goddess. That again ties in with the previous, about who taught us the runes. That god or goddess is tied to those specific runes. If you want to learn more about that, anything written by Nigel Pennick is going to be good.
 
im diverting the present discussion again for little technicalities. im not drawing the basic lines on the canvas before having these questions answered.
1 honor seat is to the left or right of Hel?
2 Hel's mother is a giant. does it make of her a very tall and big person?
3 Baldr and Hermod being Oden's sons, are they talla nd big as gods? and compared to Hel, are they taller or smaller?

thank you for answering

yeah, i myself have difficulty with that "size matter" lol.. i have difficulty picturing it all...
 
im diverting the present discussion again for little technicalities. im not drawing the basic lines on the canvas before having these questions answered.
1 honor seat is to the left or right of Hel?
2 Hel's mother is a giant. does it make of her a very tall and big person?
3 Baldr and Hermod being Oden's sons, are they talla nd big as gods? and compared to Hel, are they taller or smaller?

thank you for answering
1. Don't ask... The placement of the high seat (honor seat) during the Iron Age is a bit tricky as the practise changes over time. The main thing is that you seat the highest ranking person next to the host and hostess. The thyle sits at his or her feet, and anyone else sit according to rank vs relative distance to the high seat (the lower the rank, the father away). If it were up to me, I'd place the highest ranking after the Goddess herself to her immediate left, since the meadhorn travels clockwise at blot and sumbel.
2 Yes.
3. Baldr is fairly tall. I don't know about Hermod (never had the pleasure of meeting him). I see Baldr as slightly shorter than Hela, but that's personal. Everything is relative to my own hight. What you should do is use artistic license. It's all about how they look to you, or how they "feel" to you. Some are like Loki, and can shapeshift, so will be tall one minute, and be a horse the next... Do they feel tall to you? Focus for a bit, try to connect. If all else fails, and you really need to know what you feel, go somewhere quiet, offer up a drink to them and ask them. They're terribly good at French.:)
 
1. Don't ask... The placement of the high seat (honor seat) during the Iron Age is a bit tricky as the practise changes over time. The main thing is that you seat the highest ranking person next to the host and hostess. The thyle sits at his or her feet, and anyone else sit according to rank vs relative distance to the high seat (the lower the rank, the father away). If it were up to me, I'd place the highest ranking after the Goddess herself to her immediate left, since the meadhorn travels clockwise at blot and sumbel.
2 Yes.
3. Baldr is fairly tall. I don't know about Hermod (never had the pleasure of meeting him). I see Baldr as slightly shorter than Hela, but that's personal. Everything is relative to my own hight. What you should do is use artistic license. It's all about how they look to you, or how they "feel" to you. Some are like Loki, and can shapeshift, so will be tall one minute, and be a horse the next... Do they feel tall to you? Focus for a bit, try to connect. If all else fails, and you really need to know what you feel, go somewhere quiet, offer up a drink to them and ask them. They're terribly good at French.:)

Jag älskar dig Tyra! ive pictured them all all right, but then i really dont want to screw this. this painting is very important to me, and it would be my first with more than 2 characters, in human form !!! and males!!! and a horse!!!! o_O with 8 legs!!!! O.O lol
no no its all right. ive made many sketch of every characters. but ive asked these questions too vaguely in previous posts to have a clear answer as you just did! and so i decided to forget them, but as i was about to set everything on the canvas, i realized i do need these details for the right composition. you see, in my previous sketch i was picturing Baldr to the right of Hel, well then that makes Hel's throne very tall and big to the left side of the painting. Composition-wise, something big and high near the left border of a painting is very bad : it doesnt help the eye to enter the painting, it cut it from entering.

So when youre saying that Baldr should be "to her immediate left, since the meadhorn travels clockwise at blot and sumbel.", that helps me ALOT. I picture Baldr very tall too, but less than Hel for hes dead and very much seated... Although i imagine Hermod as tall as his brother, in my imagining the scene hes still very far, therefor his height is tricked, same thing with Sleipnir.
it really was a good time trying to draw Sleipnir's legs ^^ i was doing it at work when noone was looking (shhhh!)

Tack så mycket Tyra ^^
 
It says that the runes came from Odin to us, but also what Bates said, how it is brought to the people by Rig. Odin "hung on the windswept world tree whose roots no one knows. For nine whole days and nine whole nights he hung there on Gungnir, his spear" and so on - I believe you can read the rest of the story in the now semi-famous e-mail that I once wrote to my beloved brother, now referred to as "1000 years of oppression". I got those words out of the Edda, and then added a bit of creative license to them...

That's the Rungaldr from the Havamal, verses 139-140:

I ween that I hung on the windy tree,
Hung there for nights full nine;
With the spear I was wounded, and offered I was
To Othin, myself to myself,
On the tree that none may ever know
What root beneath it runs.

None made me happy with loaf or horn,
And there below I looked;
I took up the runes, shrieking I took them,
And forthwith back I fell.

This is how the runes were won by Odin. The Havamal continues with the 18 rune charms after that.

The thing to remember is to always put things into (pre)historic context. Odin was the god of the chieftains, the upper class. Later on, with the arrival of Christianity, kings and queens were ordained by god (they still are, according to some - look at a Canadian nickel if you doubt me), but in Iron Age Scandianvia, kings were still ordained by the people. To become the leader, you had to be successful in war and raiding. To be successful in war and raiding, you had to be close to Odin. Successful leadership was often associated with Odin, and as this went on for generations, eventually Odin became a god popular with the socialites, whereas Heimdal and Balder and Frey, and especially Thor and Freya were common man's gods. My thinking is that people probably needed to understand why common man would have been given the runes by Heimdal, but the higher ups had Odin's ear, and would have received his wisdom from The High One himself. We're supposed to learn things from the lore, but we're supposed to learn things in an Iron Age Scandinavian context, right? It needed to be explained why there were social differences, and this is one of those times.

Ok, Tyra, I may differ with you about the higher ups (Jarls) having Odin's ear and Heimdall teaching the runes to the Karl (middle) class. In the Rigsthula, Heindall only teaches the Rune charms to a son of the Jarl class, and only to one of exceptional wisdom and insight.

In the Sigrdrifumal, Sigurd learns Rune charms from the valkyrie Brynhilde, but he is also of Jarl class.

In the Svipdagsmal, Svipdag learns them from Groa his grandmother, but I believe he is an elf.

It is when runes charms are attempted by the Karl class (notably for selfish and dishonorable purposes), as in Egil's Saga, that the Rune Charms go awry.

There are a number of people today, that make the claim of "having Odin's ear" (and we both know of some of them, Tyra), and usually, it's more of a case of Odin having them by the ear and beating them about the head and shoulders.

I strongly agree that the magical thing with the runes has becomes a bit over emphasized here in North America. I think that is because we get so many "converts" from other religions, especially wicca. Many of those religions are "prone to spellcasting" and such, and are very much into magical things. For those people, the magic then becomes the focus of asatru. That is not, IMHO, how it supposed to be. All the lore cautions you strongly against using magic, unless you have been very well trained in seid or galder, because every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you use magic, you can exepct to pay for it dearly. Very few have the ability to use it wisely. Prime examples of this is Leif Eriksson's sister Freydis, and Erik Bloodaxe's wife Gunnhild, both of whom brought about the destruction of their bloodline by using seid unwisely.

Even in the best of circumstances, seidh can take its toll on you. I know modern cases of unstable persons attemping seidh, and going barking mad. Although I know the mechanics of seidh, I don't think I would ever attempt it. I hate to show my ignorance, but is that story of seidh from the Greenland Saga?

Runesinger and i have discussed this at lenght, and I keep saying that this is not a religion for "lazy" people, and it is not a religion that does well with instant gratification. You cannot sit there and say "Woe is me, I am so broke, I wish I had some money to pay the bills" and then solve that problem by casting a spell. What you need to do is get busy and apply to every job you can find until you wear out the soles of your shoes and then some. You can strenghten your resolve by invoking the right rune, because it makes you feel confident, and confidence is good in any job interview. But you still have to do the work. It may make you feel better to cast a spell against someone that's done you wrong, but it won't really help if you don't follow through and act on your intentions. So, yes, I agree that laying such a heavy focus on the magical aspects of the runes is a bit off, BUT the fact of the matter is that my ancestors were fornd of using runes for divination and for invocing the protection of the gods. Each rune falls in a specific aett, each aett belongs to a specific god or goddess. That again ties in with the previous, about who taught us the runes. That god or goddess is tied to those specific runes. If you want to learn more about that, anything written by Nigel Pennick is going to be good.

I agree totally! For instance, I may use a rune charm to make my mead brew better, but I also take great care to ensure that everything is sanitary, that the yeast is in good health, and that the other ingredients are measured carefully, and all the necessary procedures are done. The runes don't do it for me, but they help.

Generally rune charms are invoked more for a communal or other honourable good, like a good harvest for the village or good fishing or safe passage over the seas, protection in battle. Usually runes invoked for purely selfish reasons (especially love charms), go terribly bad.

As for rune divination, it is not exactly foretelling the future, because the future can be influenced by our actions/inaction, words and ideas. I call it more like seeking the counsel of the gods and goddesses. The runes can show you a direction, but you have to walk the path. I refuse to accept money for any runecasting. If I accepted money, I might tend to tell a person what pleases them - not the true counsel of the gods and goddesses.

I think Nigel Pennick is not bad for Rune books. I like some of Bernard King's stuff, but you have to sift it a bit. Of course, Edred Thorsson is Satanism with a Runic overlay, and Ralph Blum is just awful.

Runesinger
 
That is not, IMHO, how it supposed to be. All the lore cautions you strongly against using magic, unless you have been very well trained in seid or galder, because every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you use magic, you can exepct to pay for it dearly. Very few have the ability to use it wisely. Prime examples of this is Leif Eriksson's sister Freydis, and Erik Bloodaxe's wife Gunnhild, both of whom brought about the destruction of their bloodline by using seid unwisely.

Heh, yeah. Reason number one I stay the hell away from any kind of magic. Things go wrong when I'm around. It's a law of nature or something.
Now, I won't say I really believe in magic, at least not in the way most people think of it, this world didn't come with an easy button, and no matter what books you read, you're not going to wish yourself into a supreme being. But... I've seen too many odd things that I cannot logically explain to just say "There's no such thing." Science is good, but it's not exactly a closed book on anything yet.
 
Yes, R, the Sagas of Greenlanders have a bit about Freydis, but she's mentioned in one other one, too. I just can't remember which one (have my head up my a** at the moment because all I can think of is the damn thesis...if/when it comes to me, I'll get back to you). It's in Sagas of Icelanders, for sure. Re. Gunnhild, that's from Heimskringla, obviously, but I've also read a Swedish rendition of Gunnhild's story, that makes the seid thing a bit more obvious. That was not a saga, but more of a scholarly sort of paper about Gunnhild's life.

I get what you mean about the runes, and I think I didn't word things right just then - what I meant was, that I believe some of these stories were meant to teach us, the little people, that there are people who are higher up in rank. Those people wanted us little people to believe that they were closer to Odin and so had more of a right to the runes straight from him, whereas we had to get second hand information from Heimdal. I think of it as a political power play, because if you really examine it, you will realize that the higher ups aren't any closer to Odin than any other warrior or seidkona or Valkyrie wannabe. There are, and were, people who wanted us to think so. One of them has a name that starts with a T and ends with a horsson. The power was given to the chieftain by the people. Otherwise we might as well have been Christian. That's sort of what I was getting at by putting things into a historic context - the historic context is that the lore was written down by a certain type of people who interviwed certain types of people who were from the same general rank as themselves. Before then, much of it was passed down to us from scops/scalds, who were employed by a certain group of society to make them look good. The job of a scald was partially to make it look like the guy that paid them was the most powerful dude with the closest ties to Odin ever. Obviously he's going to say that he got the runes from Odin, cuz it makes him look good. But then there is different lore, not Heimskringla and Sagas of Icelanders, but religious writing, like the Eddas. There you get no chieftains to impress, then you get a more unbiased version. Interesting things like that crop up when you compare the written, "official" lore to the oral tradition, too, because one is the world as the scholarly sons of the upper crust depicted things, and the other depicts the common folk version. Most of the time, though, the two renditions agree on the bigger things, but the details may differ. That is also exactly why I pointed out that Runesinger is really good at the written lore. I realize that sometimes our renditions don't always match in detail, but on the whole, she and I tend to agree on most things - but it's only fair to tell you all that she is good at the parts that I am weak in, so that you know that we may present different sides of the same coin.
I just finished reading this really good book by a Swedish folklorist that shows that much of the lore in terms of oral tradition has remained alive and kicking, and so have many of the old religious rituals, right through to today. So much for "asatru is a new faith that was invented in the 70's" and...what was it "Runemaster" said...something like "we need to resurrect the forgotten religion of our ancestors". Forgotten my ass! This guy, who is a very learned and well known scholar and who ran the folklore part of the Museum of National Antiquities before now, just shot that theory right out of the water. He, too, discusses the oral tradition vs how it is difficult to base rituals etc on the written texts, as whoever told the stories assumed that such things were common knowledge. The rituals have to be found in the oral traditions, and they are there. Just because they've not been translated into English for Thorsson to read and then filter and then write about so us uneducated North American heathens can learn what he knows, does not mean that they're not there, no mater what his lackeys say.

I'm glad you added that bit about the rune divination vs örlög and so on, Runesinger, because it's important to understand how that all works, too.