Viking mythology and all that goes with it

Studying Hinduism really gives you this interconnected feeling of the ancient indo-aryan/european religions....

Some obvious (and notable) things are the heirarchies of the Gods and Goddesses; ex: Dyaüs Pitr and the connections to Zues, Óðinn, etc. there sons (Dyaüs was the father of Indra, God of the storm (had a twin though - Agni), Óðinn and his buttload of kids (most notable Þórr, another God of the Storm). Hell, you can even compare the creation of the universe/world with Ymir and Purusha (both dismembered).
The major differences though are the order and change in which the family relationships happen - they all seem to go back to one root order, and the split off and divide as time moves on; mothers become sisters or daughters, some pair up to represent other forces fo nature that people started dualizing, and some traits switched over to other Gods (Óðinn and the hunt, death, war - completely comparable to Rudra, or Lugus/Lú with his magic and poetry); Vritra is comparable to Jörmungandr in there animosity towards Indra/Þórr, etc. (I haven't even started talking about Surtr and his domain yet!)

Another ex: Óðinn, Vi, and Vé (Vi & Vé...seriously, are those the only recorded names for them? What of Lóðurr?) are 3rd generation gods (sound Greek anyone?) - again though, where the greeks had the devourment of the children (Χρόνος => Ouranus => Krónos => Ζεύς) and etc. - What did the norse have in this area? Búri and Borr aren't talked of much afterward where they're first mentioned...ayone care to elaborate on why this is? What theories there are for this?




The etymological roots of each word make it completely obvious that they are connected (if the translations are indeed correct).... I suppose I want to know if anyone knows about any MAJOR studies on the comparisons of these various religions? Because if there isn't...I just found my newthesis for grad school :D

Dude, I totally missed this question somehow! It is an interesting one, and it has been studied at length. The most prominent researchers are Sir William Jones and Dumézil. Jones was the one who first saw the connection between the language in the Vedic scriptures and the greek and latin scriptures, which started not only the study of the languages as being inter-related, but also, as a consequence, the religions. Dumézil studied the religious aspect at around the time of WWII. Tons of work is built upon his research, and most of his hypothesies stands unchallenged to this day. If you wanted something really interesting to study, seriously, I'd like to see a paper on Dumézil himself and how it relates to the study of Indo-European religions. Turns out that his research was partially funded by Mussolini, in response to the Germans during the war depicting their ancestors and their germanic culture as being the ultimate Über-mensch culture, so much better than all others. Obviously, Dumézil based much of his research on Roman and Greek texts, where the Germanic tribes were (mostly, with the notable exception of Tacitus) depicted as stupid, uncivilized, over-sized Barbarians who lived in the sticks in animal pelst while the Grek and Romans were so much more refined. You can follow this depiction of the Germanic tribes based on Roman political propaganda right through to this very day. It is very interisting how much of Dumézil's almost sacred theory can be unraveled just by proving that it is based on political propaganda of one kind or another (his own or nationalists of the 1880's or even Roman or Greek).
Anyhow, there is plenty of newer research, most of which I had to read for my last year's paper, and most of which falls on the heading of language research, rather than, say, archaeological research, or even religion studies. Someone could actually make a good dent in this subject just by pointing out the falsehoods in the previous research, since so much of it is based on Dumézil. This includes the theory that the Indo-Europeans arrived from the Russian steppes and bowled over all of Europe's population, rendering them all, except for the Basques, extinct. That whole theory is based on Dumézil and a really large circle argument. That thesis basically stands based on the fact that there are not too many people who have come up with anything that's a whole lot better. All those theories are about equal. This one is the only one that's based on a specific political agenda, though.
Anyhow, as you can see, I can go on about this forever...(What topic can't I go on about forever? Duh.)



 
I've also read Bates source - I don't know what the original word is, but the translations tend to say gray...(at least the ones I read - don't take my word for it though, I need to build up a rep on knowing these things on this board for my 2 cents to be accepted firsthand :))

Heh, I'd rather people not take my word on anything. My personal opinion is that taking anyone's word on anything is about as close as you can get to sin in my world view. Thinking and learning for yourself is of paramount value to me, following other people's words, well, I think all of us can think of at least one good example of why it is to be avoided. ;)

That whole Dumezil thing sounds rather interesting.... but I think my poor brain can't take on any more topics right now. I'd be interested in seeing what you more scholarly types can turn up tho. :)
 
Heh, I'd rather people not take my word on anything. My personal opinion is that taking anyone's word on anything is about as close as you can get to sin in my world view. Thinking and learning for yourself is of paramount value to me, following other people's words, well, I think all of us can think of at least one good example of why it is to be avoided.
I think that's the definition of "Norse", dear.
 
I had a migration question; phenotypically, people say I look like a damned Fin and a Swede (no proof though); counting there is no such thing as a pure bloodline and to satisfy my curiosity, I was wondering - what parties migrated to Scandinavia & Finland from Europe or other places? say circa 1100-1800 b.c.e.?

I'd at least like to know the heritage of the peoples I supposedly look like.
I know a little bit about the native peoples of Finland (and I love there music), but still...my memory is fading fast - any help?
 
The answer is "who knows". The tribes that later formed the Norse people were already there by that time. You'd have to go several thousand years farther back, and even then it's iffy. There are several theories, and there is a sizeable difference in the time frame between some of them. I can tell you what the archaeological evidence says IMHO. I mean, some things are for sure, while most other stuff is iffy - all of it is up to your own personal interpretation of the archaeology etc. A lot of people base thier ideas on linguistic research and/or on DNA on top of the archaeological stuff. Two main theories have grown out of this, and up until recently, they've really been the only two that researchers have accepted (this is one of several issues that became taboo because the nazis meddled with it, and it stayed a hot potato that nobody would touch for so long that the one theory that was created stood alone for the better part of 20 years, even though it's got blatant flaws). The problem with that is that one theory is based on DNA research, which is still in the process of being assembled, and the older research, upon which much of the theory is based, we now know is outdated and inaccurate. The linguistic evidence, like we discussed before, harks back to Dumézil and Gimbutas, and a flawed circle argument where the archaeological research relies on flawed linguistic research, which relies on the flawed archaeological research. This renders quite a few theories useless.
We are left with some newer theories that make better sense, but that have not been fully explored for the Nordic area. I can give you some names and som basic ideas of how they are laid out, but just so you know, you're looking at about 10 000 years BP. The Finns, in speciffically, are difficult to research without taking a stance in this ongoing battle, and to truly get aquainted with the material you need to for the most basic opinion, you pretty much need a few months to concentrate on just this topic alone (which I did for last year's paper - needless to say, I did not choose that topic for myself!!). It's huge and deep and you have to be very familiar with the archaeology, and then you have to know how DNA works, then learn all you can about all sorts of obsucre slavic dialects, Tocharian and Hittite, and sprinkle it all with a bit of flawed Dumézilian-Roman political crap about the religious practises of people who lived 7000 years ago and had no written language... But, like I said, there are some things that the archaeological evidence can tell us, but it goes farther back than your time frame. There isn't a whole lot of movement into (or out of) Sweden in that time, just visits to tother parts. The movement comes later, with the Germanic tribes pouring out of Scandinavia, bowling over Europe, including the Romans, in the first few centuries AD. Most of the mingeling with other people happened either well before your time frame, some in the Late Iron Age or in the historical era, when there arctually is written evidence.
 
Plus then you have to take into account that firstly, thralls were tken from here and there, though mostly from Ireland, but also from Slavonic and Baltic populations. Sometimes more from one or the other (south-eastern Skåne for example had relations with baltic tribes that reach very far back). The biggest foreign population in Sweden are the Finns, some of them having lived there for longer than others. Then there has been immigration from Germans, lots of Germans. Stockholm is pretty much founded by them. Then the Wallonians which were skilled workers, came quote a few of them. And some french. Some balts, Estonians mostly, because of all kinds of Russian/Soviet invasions. Then of course the occasional Frenchamn, Dutch, Italian, Englander and Scotsman and what have you, but not so many (more with the nobility). That's all I could think of from the top of my head, but out of all these, Germans, and the Finns in the northern parts, are probably the largest foreign influx.
 
Well, Tyra just debunked the only theories I'm familiar with, and I lack most of my resources ATM, still busy bringing down property values in Orange County. :)
The only thing I know about Finns would be from the ones I know, and they're all fucking nuts. :p

But my understanding is that the Finns (at least originally and lingustically) were more closely related to the Baltic tribes then the Germanic ones. I don't know a whole hell of a lot more then that, and the hotel internet is so slow (and I don't have my bookmarks on this laptop), that I'd rather just sit here and make something up then do real research.

No one is really sure, it seems now that that field of research is picking up again, all the old theories and things taken for granted are being constantly revised if not totally discarded. So I say.... a good story that has at least some truth to it works for me. I mean, even the genealogical research people do, that's prone to one big flaw (that of course I'd think of)... they assume that the children are always the mans. :p And I somehow don't think adultery is a recent invention, I'm sure it's existed as long as the concept of marriage. Yes, I have a jaded outlook on everything. Well, not so much jaded as I think that people, while cultures and details may change, have pretty much been people since the beginning of humanity as we know it. No one's perfect. ;)
 
That's cool, actually it goes towards my point. I didn't mean to make it sound like no one ever keeps nor kept their troth, there's always been people on both ends of the spectrum, with most falling more in the middle. Sometimes there is a tendency to idealize (or idiotize) people of elder days, especially when they are ancestors. I'm thinking more in the way of aristocratic folk, who are especially bad about glossing over the negative.

On a slightly different note, does anyone know where I can find an English translation of the Grágás? I struck out on Northvegr and the ORB/Medieval Sourcebook site. Their legal and political system, especially in the Commonwealth days, is something I find interesting, but I lack details.
 
Well, I was just asking, because some of the Finheads I know (obsessed with the damned place) basically say that most modern Finns are either half Russian or half Swedish due to the great lengths made by both countries going into Finland.

Somehow I can never verify the claims made by these people :p
 
No, Bates, I don't, but let's make a pact to tell the other if one of us finds it, cuz I'd sure like to get my hands on it. The last I heard, one of my friends was translating it into English. Then he went to Iceland and I think the earth swallowed him or something, because he just litterally disappeared off the face of the earth after that. I know he's in Norway somewhere, but that's as close as I've got to a copy... I am still searching, though, but I don't necessarily need for it to be in English. Some of the first Scandianvian laws are really quite interesting to read, and this is the only one that I have not been able to find a good copy of. You can buy many of these in bookform, where they are available in compilations. I think I may have to resort to buying one of those just to get it in Swedish even.The law of the Gotlanders is available on-line, but in Swedish.

Well, I'm off to celebrate Disthing. Mmmmm, roast pork with juniper berries and mead from a new meadery that's just opened up in town! Yay!
 
Enjoy :) I just got home from LA, hopefully I never need to go back. Any place that has mosquitoes in February.... is definitely not meant for me to live in.
I guess I'm going to have to try and bump learning Icelandic up on my schedule. Re-reading the Hattatal after picking up at least a slight sense of the language, well, I'm starting to wish the translation had been a bit more literal or at least wonder about it. Of course, I'm not 100% sure that's Icelandic, but since that part was Snorri's own work, I'd tend to guess it so.