Viking mythology and all that goes with it

[Bates]

Confusing as all fuckloose, isn't it? Every time I try and sit down and figure it out, I feel like I smashed my brain through a screen door. I can't decide if there's just contradictory bits or I just don't see how it all fits together. Some day, perhaps, I will get it. I know I like to spout off with various ideas, but in the end, that's just the bits of lore I've managed to stick in my brain forced through the filter of my own pre-conceptions and molded into my own ideals.

But, really, in the end, it's not a big deal. We'll all find out for ourselves sooner or later

@Tyra: A concordance, eh? It's probably in a language I don't know, or hard to get a hold of, I'm sure.

 

[Tyra]

Yeah, it's in Swedish. I just found it in the last few weeks, but it's turning out to be an awesome tool for my paper...
I think it was Sleipnir that said that if you can't handle ambiguity, this is not the religion for you. I agree. If you can't handle ambiguity, and you don't want to be judeo-Christian, then you should be wicca. Then you can just make things up as you go along (right Runesinger? ;-) )

Finktron, my faves are Havamal and Sigrdrifa. I do like the story about the feast at Ägir's hall, because it's so damn telling of Scandinavian society to this day. And it's funny, but in that odd Swedish way.
Aside from the Eddas, I love Heimskringla. In there my fave is the stories about Hakon Jarl.

 

[Bates]

Oooh... don't go there. One of the guitarists in my last band was a, umm, what did she call it... Norse Wiccan? Something like that. She's a really cool person and all, but, yeah... if I'm gonna make it up as I go along, let's just say I'd keep it a fuck of a lot simpler.

I don't have a problem with ambiguity, I have a problem with not knowing things. I can rationally accept that there's no way to know some things, but there's a part of my brain that continually questions everything, repeatedly, kinda like a horde of curious and sugar rushing 6 year olds. My kids learned not to play the question game with Daddy

 

[Runesinger]

So far, all I've found (in the Prose) is the line "The champions of Hel follow Loki, and the Sons of Muspell shall have a company by themselves, and it shall be bright." from when the Jotunkin assemble themselves upon the field of Vigridr.

From what I can read in the Voluspo, Ragnarok is total war - everybody fights, even in Midgard, the mortal world. It says in Voluspo. 45:

Brothers shall fight and fell each other,
And sisters' sons shall kinship stain;
Hard is it on earth, with mighty whoredom;
Axe-time, sword-time, shields are sundered,
Wind-time, wolf-time, ere the world falls;
Nor ever shall men each other spare.

In Voluspo 46, the seas grow rough and Hel-roads open

Fast move the sons of Mim (water spirits), and fate
Is heard in the note of the Gjallarhorn;
Loud blows Heimdall, the horn is aloft,
In fear quake all who on Hel-roads are.

Apparently, all the dead are conscripted into Hela's army. Of course unwilling soldiers aren't too good.

In Voluspo 48 it shows that the other races of the Nine Worlds also are locked in battle:

How fare the gods? how fare the elves?
All Jotunheim groans, the gods are at council;
Loud roar the dwarfs by the doors of stone,
The masters of the rocks: would you know yet more?

In Voluspo 50, Hrym leads the frost-giants, the Midgard Serpent rises from the sea and Naglfar is launched.

From the east comes Hrym with shield held high;
In giant-wrath does the serpent writhe;
O'er the waves he twists, and the tawny eagle
Gnaws corpses screaming; Naglfar is loose.

Naglfar means nail-ship. It has been under construction since the beginning of the age. It is made of the fingernails of dead. For this reason when someone is buried you are supposed to cut their fingernails, so they don't add too much to the building of Naglfar.

In Voluspo 51 the Fenris and his kin join in, and Loki assumes the captaincy of Naglfar to claim his final title as Captain of the Dead. It is the only title remaining to him.

O'er the sea from the north there sails a ship
With the people of Hel, at the helm stands Loki;
After the wolf do wild men follow,
And with them the brother of Byleist (Loki) goes.

And finally Surt the Firelord and the Fire-wights joins the battle in Voluspo 52

Surt fares from the south with the scourge of branches (fire-wights),
The sun of the battle-gods shone from his sword;
The crags are sundered, the giant-women sink,
The dead throng Hel-way, and heaven is cloven.

Pretty intense stuff...

Runesinger

 

[Sleipnir]

Oooh... don't go there. One of the guitarists in my last band was a, umm, what did she call it... Norse Wiccan? Something like that.

::twitch,twitch::

but I've always wondered this. Ok, so the gods have their own halls, what do those people do during Ragnarok?

As RS said......EVERYONE. Which is why if you get a bunch of heathens together and bring up the afterlife you might not get a lot saying they wouldn't mind going to Hel's Hall. I mean, in the end you wind up fighting with "the host of Hel" and i can guarantee you wont like the side your on.

and what happens to the good people in hel?

"good person, meet Surt.....Surt, meet good person....ok, ready?"

I think it was Sleipnir that said that if you can't handle ambiguity, this is not the religion for you. I agree.

pffffttttt, "Sleipnir" what a too.....oh wait, that's me.

yeah, ambiguity will drive you wonkey in this religion, but thats the awesome part, a horn of mead being passed around a fire while you all discuss/argue about the same topic with 258 different opinions, its teh bomb. it really does make you think and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

"good person, meet Surt.....Surt, meet good person....ok, ready?"

well said.

 

[Bates]

yeah, ambiguity will drive you wonkey in this religion, but thats the awesome part, a horn of mead being passed around a fire while you all discuss/argue about the same topic with 258 different opinions, its teh bomb. it really does make you think and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Hehehe... that's more or less what I do here. Get intoxicated and philosophize! Yeah, it might not be nearly as good as actually hanging out and doing it, but, well, sometimes you just have to make do. The company here is good, even if we lack fire and mead.

 

[German_warriors]

ok this thread will be for all those who wanna talk about viking mythology or stuff like that and ask questions which is what i'm about to do...

my question is : what happens to the dead Einherjers or the surviving Einherjers after Ragnarök? where do they go? i mean what the fuck are they gonna do? and ok the world will be reborn, but who will inherit Odin's crown and all? do we not know? does the mythology end just there and what is supposed to happen after really?

The Celt's derive from the norse anyway there art in drawing are from the Germanic_norse there culture is one left about 2000 bc from the norse settleing in england and ireland Dude get to your to you studies the celts are younger' then the Norse people can read history so why say it Fucking celt's are offspring ............ ps the English are leftover's :Smokin:

 

[Bates]

Alright, a few things here. The Celts do not derive from the Norse. They are both separate branches of the northern Indo-European culture, both cultures (Celtic and Germanic) evolved in parallel, the Germanic in southern Scandanavia, Jutland, and Schleswig, and the Celtic in the area of the upper Rhine and Danube valleys. They are both descended from common stock, but that common culture was neither Germanic nor Celtic.

I think perhaps that what is called "Celtic knotwork" seems to be confusing the issue for you. Yes, one of the major influences on that style may have been the Viking settlements in Ireland. (But it was primarily driven by Celtic Christianity) However, those settlements weren't created until circa 830 CE, hardly 2000 BCE.
And, well, this just gave me a chuckle while reading... "Some Wiccans have taken up the creation of celtic knots, attributing to them ideas and magical properties that may not have been there originally." hehe.

In other words, check your own information before you start blind attacking the ancestry of others. It's not likely to go over well around here.

 

[Pessimism]

I'm still lol'ing at the English comment though
Good research Bates - The Celts did have a strong parallel in culture with Scandinavia; however, whereas the northmen eventually started becoming more patriarchical in society, the Celts were primarily matriarchal (as demonstrated by he power of queens and the nature of Goddess worship).

 

[Bates]

I wasn't gonna touch that one. If conquering a land equals becoming a leftover, well, fuck it, call me a leftover.

 

[Tyra]

Eeeh, Warrior dude, with a name like that, you ought to know that the Celtis tribes ruled the better part of Europe (roughly from Romania to the Atlantic coast, down to Italy and part way down Spain, and up to the southern part of Denmark) for about 1000 years in the Bronze age (that's appx. 1000 years before the Norse were Norse "proper" - they were at that point "the Neolithic/Bronze Age tribes of Scandinavia".

And for the record, they both got the knotwork and such from the Scythians at about 700 BC and onwards before the Celts left the continent and before the Germanic tribes left Scandinavia and started swallowing Europe whole. Then, after the Germanic tribes and the Romans had scquished the Celts out of the mainland, like you squish toothpaste out of a tube, and onto the British Isles, by the turn of the millenium, they settled there, where their already existing art met up with the already existing art of the Norse, when the Norse eventually became the Norse proper and started raiding at the end of the 700's AD. Their art is similar because they both get it from the same Scythian tribes, and then they intermingled some 1000 years later to make it even more similar. Of couse, you'd have known all that if you'd have eeeh...got "to your studies", eh? ;-)
And I'm not even going to dignify that comment about English leftovers, either. Someone English can explain why they're even called that, and the whole thing about the Angles and the Saxons, and the Picts and whoever else came before but mostly after the Celt immigrants. Think of it in these terms: They went to the British Isles for a reason. It was not full of people they could not beat in battle. Now who do Germanic tribes like to beat up on the most?

 

[Tyra]

And, well, this just gave me a chuckle while reading... "Some Wiccans have taken up the creation of celtic knots, attributing to them ideas and magical properties that may not have been there originally." hehe.

In other words, check your own information before you start blind attacking the ancestry of others. It's not likely to go over well around here.

See, just like I said, if we wanted to make up things as we go, we could all become wiccan. Naw, I'll be nice. I have some good friends who are wicca, and they're not all like that at all. You get idiots in all religions. Even asatru, believe it or not! (I was being ironic, just so nobody gets that confused.)

Yeah, and regarding attacking ancestors and such, when you're new to any forum, it's not a good idea to start out by attacking the veterans either. Especially not Bates, because not only does it piss off Bates, but it pisses me off. Combining misinterpreting my ancestors AND ripping into Bates is something that one should never ever do, because it is a really, really bad idea to piss me off in the morning (I realize it's like 1:30 in the PM, but I slept in, OK?). So can we just start over? I'm unna have breakfast now.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

Tyra rules once again! excellent posts!

 

[Tyra]

Hey, Pagan, I found this paper that "sort of" relates to that discussion we had earlier about Skogs Finnar and what not. This is later period and all, but for what it's worth, here it is:
http://www.miun.se/MHTemplates/MHPage____9722.aspx

 

[bloodeagle]

ivar the boneless! bloodeagled the king of england! and went into battle tied to a shield (no bones in his legs). if thats not worthy of walking the bifrost bridge i dunno what is

 

[Pessimism]

Eeeh, Warrior dude, with a name like that, you ought to know that the Celtis tribes ruled the better part of Europe

He also says he is from Australia...which was a gigantic English colony to boot. Tat doesn't mean he is certainly English...but if his family has history there, it's safe to say he has a bit of it in him.

 

[Bates]

Hehe, Ragnar and all his offspring were badasses. Though I do have to wonder what it is with Scandanavians and bone issues... Egil with his Paget's, and Ivar with Osteogenesis imperfecta. Well, no one knows 100% he had it, but it fits the bill. I'm not sure if it's actually more prevalent in the north, or if just for some odd coincidence, most of the people who have done research were Nordic and used local subjects as research material.

And for the English, well, the short version. England ~= Angland, i.e. Land of the Angles, more commonly seen in the prefix of Anglo-Saxon, who were a Germanic tribe from the Schleswig area. Also, Saxon... yeah, if you don't know this stuff, start reading. Even the Normans, while Christianized and heavily influenced by the Gallic culture, were Germanic at least genetically.

As for me, I'm a proud descendant of at least 3 of the major Northern European tribes, the Germanic, the Celtic, and the Baltic, along with a smattering of Native American. I raise a toast to them all, and anyone who doesn't like that can piss off.

...and it's way too hot in Southern California. I've only been here a couple of hours and I already want to go back to my nice, below freezing outside, home. I was not bred for the heat.

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

Also, Saxon... yeah, if you don't know this stuff, start reading. Even the Normans, while Christianized and heavily influenced by the Gallic culture, were Germanic at least genetically.

Norman Nordman(see it as in french) Norseman ^^
so much invadings, once they settleled, didnt they?

 

[Pessimism]

...and it's way too hot in Southern California. I've only been here a couple of hours and I already want to go back to my nice, below freezing outside, home. I was not bred for the heat.

I was sweating within 20 seconds of getting inside my truck...and I had the windows down

It's like the thick smegma of smog strengthens the light.