Viking mythology and all that goes with it

[lt. Colonel Ragnar]

Can someone remind wheaethr or not the council met in the mortal world as crows or wolves or not at all?....i know when they meet for ragnarok they will meet in Oden's Corpse hall. but i cant remember how they meet when they need to discuss rregular going ons.

 

[Bates]

OK, but you know that "tyr" also means just "god" right? Like in Hängatyr, the Hanging God, as in Oden? Makes it hard when you study place names...

Yep, I know. It's part of what makes him so interesting to me. His name is everywhere, yet outside of the binding of Fenrir and a mention of him as being the drillmaster of the AEsir... there is very little on him in the Eddas. Unless I missed something.

Though Tyr may well mean god, and does so in a way in those situations, couldn't any other suffix be used there? In every copy of the edda I have all of the translators have associated the -tyr part with the kenning/substitution areas of skaldcraft. By tacking on the tyr suffix, you attribute things to Odhinn by identifying him with another god. I could not really give you an example, given that the other examples in each book really only extend into adding that specific form, but it seems to stress that other forms could be used.

You're thinking of when Odin is called by kennings describing his relationship to the other Aesir, I think. Hangatyr is a kenning, but not in that manner. The word tyr translates to diety, to my understanding. He's not being associated with Tyr, at least in that kenning, he's being described as the god who was hung. Just like anyone else who's name describes a thing, which is rather rare these days, but only because the meanings of the names have fallen out of memory and the words are rarely used outside of names.

Can someone remind wheaethr or not the council met in the mortal world as crows or wolves or not at all?....i know when they meet for ragnarok they will meet in Oden's Corpse hall. but i cant remember how they meet when they need to discuss rregular going ons.

I think you're going to have to be more specific with that... The council of the AEsir I'm assuming, but I'm not familiar with any tale of them holding a council in Midgarth in animal shape. Doesn't mean there isn't one, however, I'm far from the most knowledgeable one around here.

 

[Tyra]

If you are talking about them meeting for political purposes and such, then it is generally Valhal that is the chosen place, such as in the story about the Hrungnir getting drunk at the Gods' feast. There is also such a feast held in AEgir's hall in Lokasenna, so I don't suppose it'd have to be in a specific hall.
I don't remember them all meeting in animal shape, except for in a vision that I had once, but that's a different story. And it is also providing that's even what you meant.

Finktron, I think what Bates said about sums it up. Odin being called something-tyr doesn't mean to associate him with Tyr, but tyr is also a name for god (as a difference to goddess or Jotun or Alf or whatever), such as it is in Hängatyr, the hanging god. Does that make better sense than how I put it before? Bates about summed it up, I think.

Bates, yes, there isn't too much about him in the Eddas etc which is part of why it is lkely that he's a remnant from the older faith, and many of his duties as the highest god among that pantheon overlap with Odin's. Odin then got all the glory in the Edda, again because Odin was associated with the upper crust, and the upper crust were the ones that hired the skalds to glorify their kin and their gods. Tyr may have been more of a "average Joe's" god.

 

[Bates]

Now, we play watch Bates pull a theory out of his a... hat. But it seems to me that the three main "war gods", Odin, Tyr, and Thor (well, all the gods were warriors when needed, just like a man was expected to be able to fight if needed), well, they could almost represent the 3 classes of warriors.

Thor favored the lower class of folk, and his strength in battle was, well, his strength, much like the enlisted men in a modern army or the levies/militia of olden times, who would more often then not be folk used to working with their hands, and likely have greater brute strength but less military discipline.

Tyr was the professional soldier. While also quite strong in the physical sense, I believe second only to Thor, he also had a great strength in his discipline and his skill at arms, much like a huskarl or thegn. Akin to the modern day non-commissioned officers.

Odin, well, he was the chieftain of all. While also forward in arms, and having great martial skill... his true strength was his mind, being able to out think the enemy, and his ability to get the rest of the army to work together for maximum effect. Akin to a commisioned officer, who in olden times was nearly always of the nobility.

Now, this is pure conjecture and impression, but it seems to fit to me.

 

[lt. Colonel Ragnar]

well all i want to know is, is there any evidence...well not evidence...but scriptures that protray teh gods meeting in animal form?

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

Ok, so the gods have their own halls, what do those people do during Ragnarok?

you know you wanna answer!

 

[DragonKeeper]

Yeavering is an archaeological site where they've excavated a longhouse. The burials were outside the building, and the connection is made between the graves and the hall because there are pillars in the hall that seem to serve no purpose, but there are also such pillars outside by the graves. That, coupled with the fact that the pillars in the Norse longhouses did not serve a purpose and were removed after conversion to Christianity, would imply that the pillars served a religious purpose. This is, as I said, also the same time that the high seat changes it's position in the room. The pillars and the hearth had names that were the same as some religious aspects. For example the word for hearth and the word for altar is one and the same. And, you hit the nail on the head in your post - all of this, along with some archaeological finds of things such as guldgubbar and seething holes in the hall, as well as the building itself being a specific shape that is connected with the previous religion (something that carried on for 1000's of years but stopped cold turkey with the conversion) are indicative of the hall being connected with the religion. My thesis paper is on the political aspects of the commensal feast in Iron Age Scandinavia, and it covers much of this stuff, but in my paper it is mostly about how the drinking feast is actually just as religiously coloured as the blot, and that the religion cannot be separated from the rest of the culture. Everything is equally holy. There is not a day(Sunday), time(mass), place(church) or person(priest, bishop, pastor) that is more holy than others. The host of the feast performs profane political tasks, but also sacral tasks in a building that is not only the bedroom, kitchen and home, but also the "church". It all ties together. And no, you don't have to erase your nice pillars, because they were there.

Coolness, I would love to read it sometime when it is finished

 

[Sleipnir]

If you are talking about them meeting for political purposes and such, then it is generally Valhal that is the chosen place, such as in the story about the Hrungnir getting drunk at the Gods' feast. There is also such a feast held in AEgir's hall in Lokasenna, so I don't suppose it'd have to be in a specific hall.

There was also there meetings at Mimirs well when Thor had to wade across the river because if he crossed Bifrost it would break.

well all i want to know is, is there any evidence...well not evidence...but scriptures that protray teh gods meeting in animal form?

no

 

[Tyra]

Yes, Krigly, I would but like I said, I'm not quite sure I know how you mean. Do you mean the "mere mortals" who are now dead and living in halls other than Odin's and Freya's?

 

[lt. Colonel Ragnar]

There was also there meetings at Mimirs well when Thor had to wade across the river because if he crossed Bifrost it would break.



no

thank you

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

Yes, Krigly, I would but like I said, I'm not quite sure I know how you mean. Do you mean the "mere mortals" who are now dead and living in halls other than Odin's and Freya's?

lol. ok so I didnt word it very well.
yeah, thats what I meant.

 

[Runesinger]

Though Tyr may well mean god, and does so in a way in those situations, couldn't any other suffix be used there? In every copy of the edda I have all of the translators have associated the -tyr part with the kenning/substitution areas of skaldcraft. By tacking on the tyr suffix, you attribute things to Odhinn by identifying him with another god. I could not really give you an example, given that the other examples in each book really only extend into adding that specific form, but it seems to stress that other forms could be used.

About the god Tyr, Tyra is quite correct in saying he is most likely a pre-Aesir ruler-god of the northern people. One of the oldest runic inscriptions is a helmet with runes referring to Tyr. Actually Tyr is a definite declension of the proto-Germanic root "Tiw" meaning "a god." Tiw plus the definitive particulate "r" of Tiw+r = Tyr meaning "the god." He is commonly associated with the North star, and a four-point compass star. In this sense Hangatyr precisley means THE hanging god. The tiw root plus the the definitive plural "ar" make "Tivar" or "the gods" and connotes the full community of gods/superior beings to include Aesir, Vanir, and primitive gods.

When the [ruling] gods meet in council (on the plains of Idavol, not in Midgard), they are generally referred to as the "Regin" as in Voluspo 6:

Þa gengu regin oll a rokstola [Then sought the gods their council seats]

To throw in another juicy bit - this passage has the root rok [council, jurisdiction, judgment] in it too, as in Ragnarok. It really translates as the "Judgment/jurisdiction of the Gods" in the sense that the gods will be judging all of the nine worlds at Ragnarok.

The idea of the destruction of the gods at Ragnarok may have been a later Christian interpolation, as the literal meaning of the words doesn't seem to agree with some of the later sagas. If you want to convert a people to a foreign religion, it helps to get them to believe their gods are going to die.

Runesinger

 

[Runesinger]

LOL, don't put me in the same class as Tyra or Runesinger. I've just got a reading problem, and the books are usually handy.
But I think you're right, I'm fairly sure that line is 'Nidhögg eats the dead'. Darklyrics has it listed as Hidhægg, but I'm not sure if that's right, or if Johan used the name from a different dialect that I'm not aware of.

I've been meaning to expand on this, but I've fallen behind here - busy time at work.

The serpent Niþhogg [Dread-biter] is found beneath the roots of Yggdrasil and feasts on the wicked dead in Niflheim (Frost-land). The Fenris wolf also seems to have his share of the meal.

In the Poetic Edda, Voluspo 38-39, it describes

A hall I saw, far from the sun,
On Nastrond it stands, and the doors face north,
Venom drops through the smoke-vent down,
For around the walls do serpents wind.

I saw there wading through rivers wild
Treacherous men and murderers too,
And workers of ill with the wives of men;
There Nithhogg sucked the blood of the slain,
And the wolf tore men would you know yet more?

Nastrond is on the shore of the great frigid sea of Niflhim, There lies the hall of the wicked. The idea of the doors facing north emphasizes the cold and the cursed nature of Niflheim. Tyra, perhaps you can verify this. I heard that in Scandinavian lands, they will not put a door on the north side of a house, because it would appear cursed like the Hall of Nastrond.

Runesinger

 

[Tyra]

Hmmm, not sure. That ought to be easy to verify, because the longhalls would have their doors facing south, east or west then. When I get a chance to look, I'll take another boo at some houseplans.

Krigly, I've been reading some Gylfaginning to see if it tells us anything about what people do on "regular days". I've not had a chance to look closer at your question yet, and my mind is to fried to think straight right now...

 

[Bates]

I've always felt that Odin can keep his warriors, If I could go anywhere it would be Bilskirnir.

but I've always wondered this. Ok, so the gods have their own halls, what do those people do during Ragnarok?

*straps on a pair of brass ones*
I'd have to guess... they'd be fighting too, at least during Ragnarok, probably alongside the warriors of Folkvangar. I remember reading something about the warriors Freyja chooses are the "defensive" army... but I can't find the reference, as my library is, well, it outgrew my bookshelves a few years ago. But the impression I get from everything involved with Ragnarok is that everyone will be fighting in one way or another. It's either fight and die fighting, or hide and die a cowardly death in Surtr's flames. I just can't see anyone sitting by idly as the end happens, you know? Especially not those who were chosen by the Aesir to serve in their halls, as I figure they'd be a bit closer to the "ideal Norseman" then those who are sent to Hel.

As for the rest of the time until then, I haven't a clue. But I'd guess they all do something similar to Valhall, kinda like living in the hall of a great noble, where there is always plenty of the needed things, and some form of activity pleasing to the Asa who's hall it is. I can't even make a guess as to what that would be for each... it would be life without the "Oh shit!" moments, I guess. I.e., no "Oh shit, raiders!", "Oh shit, rain!( or no rain!)", "Oh shit, no mead!", etc.

I'm sure more is known by someone else, but at least as far as the versions of the Eddas I have are concerned, it seems that only Vallhall was considered glorious enough to be described in any detail. It seems to go back to that whole "Odin was the god of the nobles, the nobles were the patrons of the skalds, the skalds wrote the sagas to please their patrons who all expected to go to Vallhall." thing that Tyra has finally managed to drill into my brain.

As always, my posts are the product of a little bit of reading, a lot of imagination, and not enough sleep.

 

[Tyra]

Well, basically, I agree, Bates, but I was thinking in terms of those who go to Hel. Hela being the daughter of Loki, Loki being the leader of the pack for the bad guys at Ragnarök. It says somewhere, but not outright, more like it hints somewhere that Hela fights with Loki. Then I was thinking that those who go to Hel would have to fight on Loki's side. That's what I am still trying to find - that quote. I had not really thought of that until a day or two before Krigly...I mean Gridlock, mentioned it here. Now I can't even remember who brought it up (cuz my brain is still melted and I can only think in terms of thesis paper right now), so I don't know who to ask where the reference came from. Mind you, I have a concordance of the Norse texts, but that'd require time, which is something I am currently short of. It wasn't you, Runesinger, was it? Do you know, without having to fry your brain? Thanks Krigly, now I won't be able to sleep... :-(

 

[Bates]

I'll go poke around... that does sound familiar, so I'll bet it it's either in this thread or something linked to in this thread. I can't sleep anyway, have to head off to LA on Sunday, which involves a whole lot of things I am rather unfond of. Not least of which being I can't take my leatherworking tools with me, well, I guess I could, but I don't trust the luggage system with things of value, like tools.

So far, all I've found (in the Prose) is the line "The champions of Hel follow Loki, and the Sons of Muspell shall have a company by themselves, and it shall be bright." from when the Jotunkin assemble themselves upon the field of Vigridr.

Alright, I lied. My brain is fried, and reading an unfootnoted translation is not helping. I may not be able to sleep, but I apparently can't read or reason worth a damn either.

 

[Finktron]

About the god Tyr, Tyra is quite correct in saying he is most likely a pre-Aesir ruler-god of the northern people. One of the oldest runic inscriptions is a helmet with runes referring to Tyr. Actually Tyr is a definite declension of the proto-Germanic root "Tiw" meaning "a god." Tiw plus the definitive particulate "r" of Tiw+r = Tyr meaning "the god." He is commonly associated with the North star, and a four-point compass star. In this sense Hangatyr precisley means THE hanging god. The tiw root plus the the definitive plural "ar" make "Tivar" or "the gods" and connotes the full community of gods/superior beings to include Aesir, Vanir, and primitive gods.

Runesinger

Thanks! I forgot where I read that the attached word gives the characteristics of the attached word to the word it is attached to (shitty way to word this, but hey, fuck it). Probably one of the edda translations I have. I am anxious to learn Old Icelandic/Old Norse so I wont run into this sort of mess, but I am starting up German this semester so I have zero time to work with another language, not to mention two languages at once would confuse the hell out of me.

 

[Finktron]

Hela being the daughter of Loki, Loki being the leader of the pack for the bad guys at Ragnarök. It says somewhere, but not outright, more like it hints somewhere that Hela fights with Loki. Then I was thinking that those who go to Hel would have to fight on Loki's side. That's what I am still trying to find - that quote.

In the Byock translation is says explicitly, "Then Loki arrives and also Hrym. The latter is accompanied by frost giants, while all of Hel's own follow Loki."
He would know better than I, but as he is the translator, I have to trust what he says. There is the catch. *shrug*

In this translation, it also says that when Odin was flying away with the mead in his mouth, the part that was lost and given to us dribbled not from his mouth, but from his butt.

Edit: Oh yea, what is everyones favorite bit of the edda or even norse myth in general? I would make a seperate thread but I don't know if this discussion would belong inside here, or if a thread like this was already posted a bit ago cuz I have been intarweb-less.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

Well, basically, I agree, Bates, but I was thinking in terms of those who go to Hel. Hela being the daughter of Loki, Loki being the leader of the pack for the bad guys at Ragnarök. It says somewhere, but not outright, more like it hints somewhere that Hela fights with Loki. Then I was thinking that those who go to Hel would have to fight on Loki's side. That's what I am still trying to find - that quote. I had not really thought of that until a day or two before Krigly...I mean Gridlock, mentioned it here. Now I can't even remember who brought it up (cuz my brain is still melted and I can only think in terms of thesis paper right now), so I don't know who to ask where the reference came from. Mind you, I have a concordance of the Norse texts, but that'd require time, which is something I am currently short of. It wasn't you, Runesinger, was it? Do you know, without having to fry your brain? Thanks Krigly, now I won't be able to sleep... :-(

and what happens to the good people in hel?