Viking mythology and all that goes with it

[Bates]

I would like Bates to maybe elaborate a little more on this and if you want a good indication of how our ancestors lived, just read the sagas, it's all right there.

Short form would be, I look at things in a, hmm, fuck, I can't explain it. Everything wants to come out the opposite of what I mean. I'll have to get back to you on that, once I can marshal my brain.

For instance he was telling me that the monotheistic religions (including Satanism and wicca) are all inspired by Surt the Firelord. His center is around the desert lands of North Africa and the Middle East. Surt promotes monotheism because he is pretty much a dictator. Those that follow the monotheistic religions end up in Muspellheim, the land of fire. This is because they have given their minds and their will over to the rule of another. They will stay in Muspellheim until they learn to think for themselves.

Hmm, that's an interesting way to look at things, hadn't heard of that idea before.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

awesome post, Runesinger

 

[Vikingkid3]

I was wondering about some pronunciation stuff. In Jörmungandr how do you pronounce the "ö" and is the "r" at the end silent or not. I was also wondering how you pronouce all of these:
1. ð as in Skaði
2. ó also as in Óðinn
3.œ or any other combined letters like Æ in Æsir
4.á as in Váli
5.þ as in Nerþus
6. Þ as in Þórr
Are they basically accents and stuff, I dont know if thats the spelling in Swedish or Norwegian that I just don't know how to read, or not.
Numbers 5 and 6 are the ones that I have absolutley no idea how to pronounce.
6 is supposed to be for Thor but I don't know if your supposed to pronounce Thor as Thor or Tor I've heard both many times, so that adds to the confusion about what it means.
Thanks

 

[Bates]

Þ is 'thorn', and sounds like the 'th' in 'thorn'. The other one that looks like it is also a thorn, I'm pretty sure. The other oddball character they use is ð, 'eth', which is kinda another 'th' or 'dh' sound, but more like the last syllable in 'truth'. One's voiced, one's unvoiced. I have trouble with the vowels, so I can't help you there.

 

[Tyra]

See, now I wish I hadn't deleted all my sent messages, cuz then I could have just copied and pasted, eh, Bates?
Þ is th in thick and Thor.
ð is th as in though and thus.
Ö is u in murder and ou in journey.
á is a in awesome.
Ó is o in pogo stick.
œ and the other such funny combinations = modern Swedish å, ä, ö. Æ is then ä, which equals the a in back and snack, œ is ö, as above. Å is very difficult for non-Scandihoovians to say, because you do not really have any corresponding sounds, but it's roughtly pronounced like a in war or o in horse.
This is all, of course, providing that you speak a reasonably un-accented American English (snack, for example, is not pronounced the same way in the Queen's English, and in that case, the corresponding sound is different).

Krigley - do you have split personality disorder? Just wondering cuz of the me,me,me,me above your avatar...LOL.

 

[Tyra]

OK, so I am now going to fuck y'all up completely (and you thought you were confused about Hel before!):
If you look at the old texts only, there are five different places where the dead can go.
1. Valhall. Half of all warriors, for sure.
2. Folkvang. The other half of the warriors. Freya receved those who died an honorable death, including women who commmited suicide in order to protect their honour
3. Hel's domain. Cowards, oathbrakers and murderers, for sure.
4. Ran's domain. Those who die by drowning.
5. The grave mounds. See below.
There are also references to people who were reborn, such as in Helgaskvida Hundingsbana II, Helgakvida Hjordvardssonar and in Flateyarbók II.

There is some proof in the oldest Scandinavian laws that valkyries were not only "religious semi-deities", but that some women were actually thought of as valkyries in "real life". It would then have denoted a certain type of woman in this world as well, since these laws are explicit about how to punish a woman for "being a valkyrie" (and it was apparently well known to all what that would mean, since it doesn't spell out what exactly one does to become or act like a valkyrie). The valkyries, as you know, lived in Valhall with Oden and his warriors, where they were responsible for pouring the mead. This may seem like a task of servitude if you are not familiar with the cultural context, but in reality, serving the lord his mead was a jealously guarded priveliege, afforded only the highest ranking women in society. Not a task for a submissive servant girl at all. It could be that those women who were refered to as valkyries in life, were also sent to Valhall in the afterlife.

The archaeological finds give us a hint that women, who the texts do not say explicitly where they go other than in the above cases, went someplace special, too, depending on their lives, deaths and status. For example, the woman in the Oseberg burial was buried with just as much gold and fancy things as her male counterparts, and she was buried in a beautiful ship, too, just like many men were. She also brought tools for embroidery and other such womanly duties, befitting her social position. She, and other rich women, were buried with a wagon furnished with beautiful ornamentation, and she was accompanied by her servant girl. Such a fancy grave bears witness of a more pleasant existence after life than going to live in Hel's bleak and gloomy domain, don't you think?

Highranking people were often followed into their graves by their servants, who more or less voluntarily went with them. The woman in Ibn Fadlan's account of the chieftain's burial certainly was not coerced to go forcefully. It is also interesting that just before she died, she had a vision of her own afterlife, where she sees her father, mother and relatives together with her master in a green and lovely place. Also does not sound much like Hel.

Then, in Landnámanók, there is the story about the chieftain Ásmundr. He is buried with his thrall, only he couldn't handle him in the grave. Ásmundr then came back to haunt the surroundings until the thrall had been removed from the grave mound. Many other examples show that people really thought that their ancestors lived in the mounds, and that these mounds were maintained accordingly. The ethnographical evidence also gives us some ideas about how many people don't believe that the dead individual goes stright to the other world, but that there is a time during which the person exists in his or her grave. Certain things have to take place before the dead one can travel on, such as a given period of mourning, or the corpse has to rot completely and be reburied. In this case, it may be that some thought that the dead could not cross the Rainbow Bridge until a certain toast had been toasted to his or her memory, and the office he or she had held in this life officially became that of his or her successor. In the meantime, the dead person was neither here nor there, but would have been living in the mound or the grave.

Hel has been interpreted as a grave, too. A damp, cold, dark and lonely place. So maybe Hel was a metaphor for the grave - you just got buried, but you never went any farther.

All of this is stuff that we cannot know for sure. All of this is also stuff that we are not meant to know for sure. Yet.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

Krigley - do you have split personality disorder? Just wondering cuz of the me,me,me,me above your avatar...LOL.

inside joke from Heathen Crusade. They made me chug 3 beers by chanting Frank! Frank! Frank! Frank! really fucking loud. Cant really say no when theres chanting going on.

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

Awesome, now my questions are answered, its all clearer, thanks to all of you!! I will be able to start painting very soon ^^

And lets hope it will give a worthy result, as this is the first time i attempt such a painting and subject and such details...

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

My friend once went to an artists exhibition, and his paintings could have been described as neo-romantic, all set in war scenarios of different eras of the European history. A slight problem there was, however. The artist was Japanese, and for him to fully understand the entire history of Europe was difficult, which is of course very understandable. So therefore, the centerpiece of the exhibiton, this enormous beautifully detailed oil painting pictured an epic battle at sea. The sides: Vikings versus Pirates. The Johnnie Depp-18th Century kind. Think guns and sabers against horns and two-handed axes.

I appreciate your effort to get a better grasp of what your dealing with before you throw yourself into something like this, Erzebeth.Rogue.

 

[Bates]

I'll bet it was a fun fight! LOL.

And I figured this thread would be a good home for this, got sent it and asked to pass it around. I've heard of this fellow before, in all likelihood from the illustrious Tyra. His website has some pretty neat archaeological stuff, too

> -----Original Message-----
Dear Viking friends,
In the middle of winter, with half a meter snow outside my
window and a temperature well below freezing point, it is
nice to start thinking of a warm summer day, on one's knee
looking into the daily life of the Viking People! We are
getting closer to the summer's programme about the
archaeological field courses on the island of Gotland, Sweden.

For some years, we have been excavating the Viking Port of
trade at Frojel, with some tremendous fascinating discoveries
(among all, we have now registrered som 33 000 objects in our
database and excavated about 100 graves). The excavations are
now finished, and we will start a new project, while at the
same time working on reports about Frojel.

Now the time has come to get a better picture of the houses
and farms in Viking Age. It might seem strange, but in spite
of the tremendous rich material from Viking Age from Gotland,
we know rather little about houses and farms. So, for som
years to come, we will carry out designated studies of houses
from Viking Age.

Coming summer, we will start to investigate a farm up in the
northern part of Gotland, where a silver hoard from Viking
Age was found a few years ago, containing more then a 1000
coins. The hoard was found in a Viking Age house, and now we
will investigate the remains of the hoard and try to get a
better idea about house constructions etc.

We are now opening up for application to our courses, that
will take place in July and August in a bit different ways.
Please check out the information and application form at
http://www.arkeodok.com/Discoveryprogramme.html.

I would very much appreciate any help you can give me to
spread the information about the course. If you have any
questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. Hope to see
you next summer at a fascinating excavation site!

Dan Carlsson

 

[Sleipnir]

4. Ran's domain. Those who die by drowning.

Not that I left Ran out on purpose mind you, I just figured since drowning was more "accidental" and a "job hazard" than most other types I didn't really even think of it. It is also interesting to note...not to you T...that sailors carried with them pieces of gold so that if in fact they did drown they would be welcomed into Ran's hall and the gold would be her tribute.

from Frithiof Saga:

Unfrightened by tossing waves and whistling blasts,Frithiof sang a cheery song to reassure his terrified crew; but when the peril grew so great that his exhausted followers gave themselves up for lost, he bethought him of tribute to the goddess Ran, who ever requires gold of them who would rest in peace under the ocean wave. taking his armlet, he hewed it with his sword and made fair division among his men.
"Who empty-handed
Down to sea-blue Ran?
Cold her kisses strike, and
Fleeting her embrace is."

 

[Tyra]

Hey, Bates, that's one of the proffs @ school that runs that thing (Dan Carlsson). I'm on the same mailing list, cuz of those really cool "mysterious item" questions. I think Dan is in charge of one of the digs that are held in English, but don't quote me.

Sleipnir, do you know of any on-line versions, in any language, of Hattatal?? It has a lot of gift giving scenes, and I want to quote from it, but I don't have a decent copy of that text and I can't seem to find one. I need stuff like your quote above, to prove that gift giving was an expected thing.

 

[Sleipnir]

Sleipnir, do you know of any on-line versions, in any language, of Hattatal?? It has a lot of gift giving scenes, and I want to quote from it, but I don't have a decent copy of that text and I can't seem to find one. I need stuff like your quote above, to prove that gift giving was an expected thing.

I'll see if I can find anything and I will ask my kin if they know of any other examples.

 

[Sleipnir]

Hey T, according to northvegr the Faulkes translation of the Prose Edda is said to be one of the few tha has hattatal in it and it is easily obtainable. I hope that helps and now I am off to amazon to get it.

 

[Tyra]

Awesome! Thanks. (It blows when you know a lot by rote, but then when you want to use the knowledge, you have to know in what translation and what year the book was printed that retold the story three languages later...It's frustrating as hell when I know it's there, but I can't prove it because I am on the "wrong side of the ocean" and can't just go to the library and take the book out. In our library, Norse mythology books are under "Science fiction"!!!! They obviously don't have any copies of the Edda...)

A while back, we were on about runes. I remembered that when I was reading Egils's saga for the 1000000th time, to look for stuff for my thesis paper. What reminded me was the part where Egil comes to Sweden and pays a visit to a man's house. His daughter was sick, but Egil found a whale bone under her pillow, where a neighbour had carved runes into it to "awaken her love of him". Instead, they had made the girl sick. Egil removed the bone and carved new runes, which made the girl healthy again. Then Egil made a poem about how one should not carve runes if one did not have the proper know-how to use them correctly. There is your proof of runes being used for magic.
In the same story, there is a part where Egil's son died. Egil composed a poem then, called Sonatorrek, which his daughter supposedly "copied with runes". So, there is your proof of it being used as a regular alphabet.
St Fortunatus also wrote to a firend of his that if he did not wish to correspond with him using Roman letters, then he was also profficient in the alphabet of the Greeks, Persians, Hebrews and Germans, whose letters, according to him, were painted on pieces of ash wood tablets. There, again, runes are used as an alphabet, and it's considered good enough to use in correspondence. -T

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

My friend once went to an artists exhibition, and his paintings could have been described as neo-romantic, all set in war scenarios of different eras of the European history. A slight problem there was, however. The artist was Japanese, and for him to fully understand the entire history of Europe was difficult, which is of course very understandable. So therefore, the centerpiece of the exhibiton, this enormous beautifully detailed oil painting pictured an epic battle at sea. The sides: Vikings versus Pirates. The Johnnie Depp-18th Century kind. Think guns and sabers against horns and two-handed axes.

I appreciate your effort to get a better grasp of what your dealing with before you throw yourself into something like this, Erzebeth.Rogue.

I think AA derserve it.

 

[Tyra]

Oh, and I forgot about Gefjon - Gylfaginning says that unmarried women go to her.

 

[Bates]

Hey, Bates, that's one of the proffs @ school that runs that thing (Dan Carlsson). I'm on the same mailing list, cuz of those really cool "mysterious item" questions. I think Dan is in charge of one of the digs that are held in English, but don't quote me.

Sleipnir, do you know of any on-line versions, in any language, of Hattatal?? It has a lot of gift giving scenes, and I want to quote from it, but I don't have a decent copy of that text and I can't seem to find one. I need stuff like your quote above, to prove that gift giving was an expected thing.

I actually have the Faulke's translation, but I have no way of putting it online other then typing it out. While I don't think my wrists will let me do 55 pages of text, if you know what bits you need, I can transcribe them for you.

I thought that guy was one of your profs, I remember you saying something about one of his lectures before... I think. I figured you knew about it already, so I figured I'd drop it here in case anyone else was actually interested enough... which isn't as much a long shot with a bunch of metalheads as you might think.

Or it could serve as a warning that even the memories and reputation of the oathbreakers and murderers will be desecrated and eventually destroyed, leaving not even a fond memory to be carried on.

My brain works strangely, yes, I know.

I would like Bates to maybe elaborate a little more on this and if you want a good indication of how our ancestors lived, just read the sagas, it's all right there.

My thought there was basically that "Someone who was that bad, even their memory would be cursed." To someone who wanted to be revered in memory, that would be a horrible thing, I think. No one wants to be the guy who no one would ever drink a toast to. What can I say? It's an explanation that makes perfect sense to me, but I claim no expertise in anything except my own thoughts. I come at things from a strange direction, I guess.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

A while back, we were on about runes. I remembered that when I was reading Egils's saga for the 1000000th time, to look for stuff for my thesis paper. What reminded me was the part where Egil comes to Sweden and pays a visit to a man's house. His daughter was sick, but Egil found a whale bone under her pillow, where a neighbour had carved runes into it to "awaken her love of him". Instead, they had made the girl sick. Egil removed the bone and carved new runes, which made the girl healthy again. Then Egil made a poem about how one should not carve runes if one did not have the proper know-how to use them correctly. There is your proof of runes being used for magic.
In the same story, there is a part where Egil's son died. Egil composed a poem then, called Sonatorrek, which his daughter supposedly "copied with runes". So, there is your proof of it being used as a regular alphabet.
St Fortunatus also wrote to a firend of his that if he did not wish to correspond with him using Roman letters, then he was also profficient in the alphabet of the Greeks, Persians, Hebrews and Germans, whose letters, according to him, were painted on pieces of ash wood tablets. There, again, runes are used as an alphabet, and it's considered good enough to use in correspondence. -T

Is this the part where he goes on to barf all over his host? Best part of Scandinavian sagas ever, for sure. Imagine doing a film about Egil. It would probably end up something like Borat - misunderstood but hilarious.

 

[Tyra]

It's not the same farmer, but it's the same trip. Yeah, there is an older black and white movie about Egil. I remember the part where they get locked up and break out by killing a bunch of their jailers (and then some), but then they went back again, even though they got away, because it'd refelct badly on your örlög to kill someone and not let it be known you were the killer. I remember it fairly well even though I was very small when I watched it, because they truly depicted hom as a very ugly and large man (he himself said he was, and by all accounts, he was), and he was very nasty, which scared me when I was little. He was a berserker, after all...and yet he wrote such lovely poetry...

Bates, I might take you up on that offer. I'll see if I can get around actually quoting and just explaining what happened in my own words. I'll get back to you if need be, so thanks for offering! Hattatal is supposedly such difficult poetry that it is virtually impossible to translate it into English. Apparently that's why it's so difficult to find over here.