Viking mythology and all that goes with it

The archaeology blows, which sort of fucks up the whole concept. The basic idea of Christianity, as with most faiths, is that it relies on blind faith. Blind faith requires no evidence for the religion, and it also disregards all evidence against it. It doesn't matter if Jesus' blood was splattered all over the crypt and his DNA matched the offspring's. Even if it had a f-ing photograph of Jesus and the apostles, it wouldn't matter, because blind faith is a leap of faith that one needs not have evidence for or against. This would be why the Turin shroud has been tested, retested and tested again, and it still doesn't support that it was Jesus' or even a shroud. The Christians still say it's his shroud.

Edit: Make mental not to self. If you ever unearth a very pretty necklace, make sure to splatter all over the news that you've found Freya's necklace. Nobody can prove you're wrong, you'll become famous over night and prove that the Goddesses really exist in the process. Or maybe not...
 
You don't need hard evidence to prove something wrong, you need it to prove it right. It'd be pretty nifty to see if they can manage to prove he did actually exist, but I'd need a better word on him being divine and so forth then stories written by a couple of vagrants :p

Aye, I saw it, it seemed that they portrayed the vikings as merely attacking Christianity throughout the damned thing whenever they brought up the church. They mentioned that they were doing it for silver once, but other than that they were using some loaded words to associate Christianity with vikings.


I preferred watching the barbarian battle tech myself - the Francisca!
 
whats the best version of Tacitus Germania? I wanna get it.
Krigly, I don't really think there is one that's "bad". Translating from prose is not very difficult, and translating from Latin isn't difficult either, so you don't get the same problems you get with the Eddas for example. Just make sure to get a copy with lots of footnotes. There are plenty of different versions on the net for free. Look at some of them and compare for yourself. You may find that you like the language in one better than in another, especially if one is a very old translation. I can't really give you a better answer, as I use the Swedish or the Latin versions myself (available at www.tacitus.nu for those who speak Swedish).
 
Ohh, ohh, T found Brisingamen! hehe

Now for my question of the day... anyone know what 'helskór' are/were?
Yes, they were shoes "Hel shoes" that you'd tie to a dead person's feet so that he could walk to Hel if need be. I have no idea, though, how historically accurate this is. You can, for sure, read about it in Rydeberg's "Fädernas Gudasaga" (Teutonic Mythology). His book is very good, but also very old (1906), so some of the things he writes about have since been researched and found to be inaccurate.
For those who understand the somewhat archaic version of the mother tongue, here's the excerpt from the book that explains what they are and their purpose:
"De dödas allfarväg i underjorden går först i västlig riktning genom djupa och mörka dalar. På ett ställe har man att gå öfver en milsbred törnbevuxen hed utan stigar. Då är det godt att hafva Helskor till skydd för fötterna. Fördenskull försumma ej en afliden människas fränder eller vänner att binda Helskor på liket, innan det jordas. Det är visserligen sant, att dessa skor, likasom allt annat, som liket medför i griften, såsom kläder, vapen och smycken, stanna i grafven; men allt i skapelsen, äfven de af människor slöjdade tingen, har ett inre ämne och en inre form, och det är de graflagda tingens inre väsen, som följer den döde till underjorden. De efterlefvandes omsorg om de döda räknas dessa till godo, och ha de Helskor, komma de med välbevarade fötter öfver törneheden. Ha de det icke, och om de lifstiden varit obarmhärtiga mot dem, som få vandra jordelifvets törniga stigar, då komma de ej utan rifna och blödande fötter däröfver. Men åt de bamhärtiga, som sakna Helskor, räckas sådana från ett träd, som växer där törnevandringen börjar."
 
Aye, I saw it, it seemed that they portrayed the vikings as merely attacking Christianity throughout the damned thing whenever they brought up the church. They mentioned that they were doing it for silver once, but other than that they were using some loaded words to associate Christianity with vikings.


I preferred watching the barbarian battle tech myself - the Francisca!

Saw it. Decided to ignore it. Felt bad that so many other people would see it, too, and actually believe it. Did not paint a very accurate picture.

In their defence, the only people who noted the vikings in writing were the Christians. They had unlocked buildings full of silver just waiting to be looted. They also knew how to write, so they did. The fact that a religion came attached to the aforementioned buildings, a.k.a churches, had nothing to do with anything until the Christians, purely for political reasons, decided it did.

Some of the most famous accounts of raids on monasteries in the UK were written as late as 300 years after the actual event. That famous "Save us, oh, gentle Lord, from the wrath of the Norsemen" quote about the attack on Lindisfarne was written well after the attack by a monk sitting in Switzerland. It was at that point that the English church was battling the German church (Hamburg-Bremen, to be precise) for supremacy over the Scandinavian church (a battle which the English eventually lost). They had to prove to the Pope that they needed his support to root out heathendom, and that they were best suited to do so. So, the English had monks like that one write such things, while the Germans had Master Adam of Bremen. The end result for the Norse is that the stigma still hasn't washed off, some 1100 years later.
 
Krigly, I don't really think there is one that's "bad". Translating from prose is not very difficult, and translating from Latin isn't difficult either, so you don't get the same problems you get with the Eddas for example. Just make sure to get a copy with lots of footnotes. There are plenty of different versions on the net for free. Look at some of them and compare for yourself. You may find that you like the language in one better than in another, especially if one is a very old translation. I can't really give you a better answer, as I use the Swedish or the Latin versions myself (available at www.tacitus.nu for those who speak Swedish).

will do. thanks hun. :oops:
 
Tyra, i didn't really get it. Are you saying that the "a furore normannorum libera nos domine" only appeared in prayers after the viking age?
 
Well, no. What I meant is, that some of the things that we associate with the vikings are, still to this day, things that could just as easily be complete fabrications. A large amount of the things we think we "know" are things based on complete hearsay. Many of the most quoted texts are accounts of second or third hand accounts. For example, everyone has heard of the temple in Uppsala. It's interesting, though, that no temple has ever been found, and no traces of the things that one assoicates with Norse cult and ritual space are there. Adam is the only one who writes about it, and yet, he also writes with conviction, that there are cyclops living up north. Now, if you were trying to prove that a place needed conversion, wouldn't you spice things up with writings about horrid sacrifices and black magic, such as the ones claimed to have existed at Uppsala? All that aside, Adam never ever went to most of the places he describes. Neither did Tacitus or Procopius. At least Saxo traveled to some of the places he writes about and was Norse by heritage himself, but both his and Rimberts' accounts are also strongly flavoured with Christian spice. It was to their benefit to make the Norse look as bad as possible (all except for Tacitus, but he instead was supposed to do the opposite). Even Caesar had a political goal in mind that caused him to want us to look horrid. The same obviously goes for that prayer. Today, when you hear those lines, you'd say that's what the monks in Lindisfarne all prayed when the monestary was raided. We think we "know" that, because we've been told that so many times, because that is what the original source says. The original source, however, was written in Swizerland many decades after the event, and by someone who, by all accounts, was not even there to hear the prayers. Pure hearsay, in other words. And he wrote it to make the Norse as a whole look bad. It was, after all, not the vikings, the raiders in their ships, who needed converting. It was the Norse people, the farmers and women and children in the Scandinavian home lands that were to be converted. This would give lots of power and an influx of papal monies to your own bishopric. So, someone came up with the brilliant idea that went something like this: "Lets just tell the Pope that they're all bad and the tools of the Devil. He will see the need for us to convert them if we make them look like Satan's deciples in the very worst way. Let's base it upon some of the things they might have done, twist facts and embellish. All is fair in love and war, right? This is not just war against Satan, but war against the other bishopric, who also want to convert them and have all that money and power. It's not like those barbarians can write anything in their defence ( haha, they "write" with sticks!! Haha!) and send to the Pope, and he will never in this lifetime travel to the cold north to find out the truth for himself, so we'll get away with it scot free. What's to loose?"
Ever since then, the world seems to have swollowed that version wholesale, and so my people still have to defend ourselves as the filthy, simple minded violent pigs without any sense of morals we were depicted as, which is very much a part of why we continuously get dragges into the extreme right wing movement. It is because we were depicted as warriors with only killing and war on our minds, who purposely desecrated the religions of other peoples that we look so damn interesting to people like Hitler's desciples. They have bought the myth wholesale, completely disregarding the Thing and its power, the reasons for raiding, and the legal and societal effects that behaving like a beserker would carry with it, the standing of women, the farmers and the religion's foundation in respect and honour. So, what I am getting at, is just that many of the things that we "know to be true about vikings" is not necessarily true at all, but rather myths crates over 1000 years ago by people on a mission to hurt us. It's kind of like the world deciding to believe everything George W Bush says about Iraq as the gods' honest truth and then perpetuating it for several centuries. If we did that, in 1000 years, we'd have a pretty fucked up idea about every day life in Iraq in 2006, don't you think?
 
Idea for a sequel to "1000 Years".... "2000 Years of Propaganda".
You sound like you're about 2 steps from loosing the wolf. ;) I suggest heavy drinking and avoiding contact with people you don't like... has always worked for me. Unfortunately, the world is full of stupid people, and there's not much to be done for it, because most of them have no interest in learning better, and they keep turning down my suggestion to make public stupidity a capital offense.
 
Yes.
(Swedish does not use apostrophies to show the genitiv form, and the lyricist is Swedish - easy mistake to make when you switch between languages...I do it all the time, only in reverse - I put apostrophies in the genitiv when I write in Swedish sometimes, just becuase I am so used to writing in English! Loki is Loki in Icelandic, but Loke in Swedish, and the lyricist is Swedish, so used the Swedish name, just like Oden is used rather than Odin etc.)
 
No, although the Christians would have probably prefered it if Domkyrkan were more famous than the heathen temple...

Yes, Bates, I've had a bad week. I had a three hour nap after I read your post, though. That helped.
 
Some of the most famous accounts of raids on monasteries in the UK were written as late as 300 years after the actual event. That famous "Save us, oh, gentle Lord, from the wrath of the Norsemen" quote about the attack on Lindisfarne was written well after the attack by a monk sitting in Switzerland. It was at that point that the English church was battling the German church (Hamburg-Bremen, to be precise) for supremacy over the Scandinavian church (a battle which the English eventually lost). They had to prove to the Pope that they needed his support to root out heathendom, and that they were best suited to do so. So, the English had monks like that one write such things, while the Germans had Master Adam of Bremen. The end result for the Norse is that the stigma still hasn't washed off, some 1100 years later.

I saw it, but it was so tediously inaccurate, I couldn't watch much of it.

Speaking of Lindisfarne, didn't the Christians run a bunch of Vikings off the land so they could build their monastery?? I heard the Vikings were just trying to take it back. :headbang:

Robin
 
You don't need hard evidence to prove something wrong, you need it to prove it right. It'd be pretty nifty to see if they can manage to prove he did actually exist, but I'd need a better word on him being divine and so forth then stories written by a couple of vagrants :p

Ya you don't need evidence to prove something wrong, but the whole idea of jesus being a god, which so many christians and the pope and all those people stress, and that he ascended to heaven and never left any physical remains would be proved totally false, if it was jesus's actual skeleton. Which would beg the question, what else have past popes and kings and people changed or removed or said that also isn't true. I have never been able to believe in jesus as a god or any of that shit, but I do believe that he may have actually existed just as a person that was good at telling people how they can live, in his mind, better lives. And later someone decided to say that he was a god and everyone believed him.
I know most of christianity is based on blind faith, and more about the teachings and principles instead of whether or not god actually exists, I'm just saying it would bring about more skepticism. I'd also like to see how the higher-ups in the christian world try to come up with an explanation to the whole thing.
But thats just my opinion, I have an almost absolute hate for christianity and everything that goes with it.

(I might have contradicted myself or said things that can be interpreted other than I ment or were too broad, but my brain is fried right now because I've been studing for a calculus final for like an hour and worked my ass of throwing some heavy ass rocks for track. So bear with me.)
 
Ah, but that depends on your denomination. In the Lutheran church, there is a "holy trinity" consisting of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. All of those are one and the same entity, separate parts of one thing. It can then be said that Jesus is/was a God. Therein lies one of the differences between Islam and Christianity - in Islam, Jesus is merely an apostle, a mortal man, but in Christianity, Jesus is part and parcel with Jahwe/Jehova/God, not mortal. He is the visual part of God.

Runesinger, I've never heard that about Lindisfarne, but it makes me wonder, too, what exactly they'd be taking back. The thing about Lindisfarne is that it was the first "offical" viking raid. The looting of Lindisfarne signals the official date of the start of the "Viking Age". In other words, the Norse hadn't gone to other lands to sack before then. There was movement out of Scandinavia before Vendel Age, where the Germanic tribes exploded out of Scandinavia and moved down all over Europe, conquering, raiding and often sacking on the continent. They eventually helped bring about the fall of the Roman Empire, but as far as I know, none of those tribes ever went to any of the small British Isles and such, and not until much later did any of those tribes decide to actually stay and settle - they just sacked and left for the next town. Generally speaking, that early in prehistory the Norse had no political purpose for the looting in terms of what they'd do with the land, just economical (grab all the silver you can get, return home and distribute it to warriors in order to tie them to you, gain power back home). Later, they hung on to land and actually conquered, but conquering is different from viking, so I tend to think that going back to re-take land is out of character. Especially a place like Lindisfarne - you'd litterally have to be a hermit monk to want to live there. They lived there because it was a great sacrifice to do so, which proves they wqere good Christians. It's a tiny rock in the ocean with nothing on it and no contact with the outer world other than by necessity. As a strategic target, it makes sense in terms of looting the monestary, but not in terms of land rights or farming. Re-taking also implies that the Norse had conquered it, then been conquered themselves, and now returned. I can't think of who would have taken Lindisfarne from the original Norse settlers. The Picts certainly didn't have it in them at that point, the Anglo-Saxons didn't want it, and I am not too sure about the Celts, and the Christian armies didn't give a rat's ass about rocks in the ocean. The Christians prefered to "infiltrate" already existing communities back in that point in time, and as far as I know, there really wasn't any existing community because it is a very unhospitable place.
The idea of re-taking land like that also smacks of Christian propaganda, exactly of the variety that I was refering to earlier: paint a picture of the heathens as calculating, rootless, coldblooded killers who'd come in and reap vengeance on poor innocent monks in the name of Satan. That's just my personal opinion, though. I can't back either claim up with science, but I just have a feeling, based upon what would have been characteristic of the Norse and the Christian of the era.