Bates
Swamp Yankee
As an additional note, one of the original proposals (by Thomas Jefferson) for the reverse of the Great Seal were Hengist and Horsa, (semi-historical) rulers of the Bates homeland
Viking mythology and all that goes with it
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As an additional note, one of the original proposals (by Thomas Jefferson) for the reverse of the Great Seal were Hengist and Horsa, (semi-historical) rulers of the Bates homeland
Tyra
Member
Grundig, they not only make sense on a purely logical level, which is something that a logical minded person like myself can relate to, but they are the ones that came to me. I never asked to be religious. I dispise organized religion. It's a political tool, to quote Marx, an opiate of the people (no I am not a communist, but in this instance, he's right) and something that is un-scientific. Still, they came to me. They are the ones I see and feel, even though I don't want to. I am not stupid, so I choose not to ignore them any more than I ignore my gut feeling. I cannot explain it, so I don't try to. It just is what it is.
Blodørn
Member
Tyra
Member
Yes, someone has to be more connected to Loki/non-logic than the rest of us, lest we bring on Ragnarök prematurely.
Blodørn
Member
Haha Do you know what? I claimed that Ragnarök was to come on my 18th birthday.. The day the chaos child became the chaos man ment that full havoc upon the nine worlds would be released.. But I guess I was wrong :/
Do you know what? I claimed that Ragnarök was to come on my 18th birthday.. The day the chaos child became the chaos man ment that full havoc upon the nine worlds would be released.. But I guess I was wrong :/
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Blodørn
Member
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Hehe. I know this feeling, I can fuck up anything by my mere presence. Now, if only I could learn to use it to my advantage more....
Blodørn
Member
What are you talking about? I love the way I fuck everything up! I love how I allways hit a door or something when walking out of a room. I love the way I make people pissed at me. I love the way I love my self for beeing an asshole, only a true asshole can feel that kind of love for one self.
Grundig Avkom
Son of the Aesir
Blodørn;6134333 said:
lmfao.... dont make me fall out of my chair in laughter..... and yes you are right
Grundig Avkom
Son of the Aesir
I'm not sure about the political part, I'm against organised religion because to me it's a very personal thing. So I don't want to have people to tell me how and what to believe! I also often get the feeling that the ones who claim to be the "leader" (meaning the ones you are supposed to ask, and the ones to do the ceremony and so on), are the ones who understood less about the true meaning of it. It's like they do it to be admired, and not to serve the purpose.
Apart from that I feel the same. I study physics, so you'll have a hard time to convince me about anything that you can't proove through scientific facts.
But
I was basically raised without religion by the way. But where I live, everybody is christian I guess. So I do have the problem that I'm completely without guidance. I don't know how or what to do, so I basically do what I feel is right. I guess that's the best way. (Better then beeing told what to do, and then doing it because you're supposed to, but not because you're convinced that you are doing the right thing for the right reason?)
I'm not a big fan of rituals because of that ...
Apart from that I feel the same. I study physics, so you'll have a hard time to convince me about anything that you can't proove through scientific facts.
But
I often still feel stupid, like "you should know better", but it's like love: you can't fight it! So I don't.
I was basically raised without religion by the way. But where I live, everybody is christian I guess. So I do have the problem that I'm completely without guidance. I don't know how or what to do, so I basically do what I feel is right. I guess that's the best way. (Better then beeing told what to do, and then doing it because you're supposed to, but not because you're convinced that you are doing the right thing for the right reason?)
I'm not a big fan of rituals because of that ...
Blodørn
Member
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Well(here comes another Bates Opinion™, I'm not sure what kind of guidance you're looking for. But the best guide of all is yourself... there's not any kind of authority on what you should do. Sure, some people may know the details of certain sagas, rituals, and such like better, but the only guide that you can always trust in is your own mind and your own honor. There is no Old Faith/Asatru dogma, dogmatic thinking would be rather against the point, in my eyes.
I understand where you are coming from, I think. I was raised more-or-less irreligious, perhaps a sort of "Christian-by-default", but I rejected that at a rather young age. I can explain it no better then it rang false to me, and, well, my research as I've grown older has pretty much supported that early conclusion. I've studied, at least cursorily, a lot of different mythologies and philosophies over the years. I have seen both the truths contained in many of them, and the blatant manipulations of belief for political gain in many of them.
And I'm stopping now before I end up writing a fucking thesis, lol. The point I meant to get to is what I think you may be missing is not leadership or guidance, but community. I seem to be somewhat geographically isolated in the same manner, but, well, that's life.
, I'm not sure what kind of guidance you're looking for. But the best guide of all is yourself... there's not any kind of authority on what you should do. Sure, some people may know the details of certain sagas, rituals, and such like better, but the only guide that you can always trust in is your own mind and your own honor. There is no Old Faith/Asatru dogma, dogmatic thinking would be rather against the point, in my eyes.I understand where you are coming from, I think. I was raised more-or-less irreligious, perhaps a sort of "Christian-by-default", but I rejected that at a rather young age. I can explain it no better then it rang false to me, and, well, my research as I've grown older has pretty much supported that early conclusion. I've studied, at least cursorily, a lot of different mythologies and philosophies over the years. I have seen both the truths contained in many of them, and the blatant manipulations of belief for political gain in many of them.
And I'm stopping now before I end up writing a fucking thesis, lol. The point I meant to get to is what I think you may be missing is not leadership or guidance, but community. I seem to be somewhat geographically isolated in the same manner, but, well, that's life.
And I'm stopping now before I end up writing a fucking thesis, lol. The point I meant to get to is what I think you may be missing is not leadership or guidance, but community. I seem to be somewhat geographically isolated in the same manner, but, well, that's life.
Dude....everyone should write a thesis - FLESH OUT & EXPOUND THAT KNOWLEDGE!
Knarfi
Yaba-daba-doo!
Well this forum is a start for a "community" i guess
I think alot of us are asatru'ish, or at least very interested (<- me)
Bates
Swamp Yankee
I've actually been working on it, lol. I'm just trying not to turn AA's forums into "Bates' Theories on Everything".
Well, with "guidance" I meant someone I could go to anytime and ask a stupid question, or someone who might show me how I might want to do certain things. Someone I meet with from time to time, who would tell me a few stories and sagas.
Someone like Tyra, but living next door
I still don't know if I should call myself a pagan or an atheist. I have no harg, I don't bring any offerings, and I wouldn't know how to do this either ... I'm not even sure if I should do something like this, since the way I imagine Odin and Thor for example, they could care less about a spilled glass of wine (or mead). I think it's more important to believe and trust in them. To show them that you are worthy, not to "buy" their sympathy ...
(no offense though, if someone "feels" it is right to bring an offering, then that's what you should do ... I don't feel it, so I guess it would be wrong to do it ... ?)
Someone like Tyra, but living next door
I still don't know if I should call myself a pagan or an atheist. I have no harg, I don't bring any offerings, and I wouldn't know how to do this either ... I'm not even sure if I should do something like this, since the way I imagine Odin and Thor for example, they could care less about a spilled glass of wine (or mead). I think it's more important to believe and trust in them. To show them that you are worthy, not to "buy" their sympathy ...
(no offense though, if someone "feels" it is right to bring an offering, then that's what you should do ... I don't feel it, so I guess it would be wrong to do it ... ?)
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Yeah, I know what you mean. We'd all like to have a Tyra next door. I don't have a harg or anything myself, at this point, well, I'd feel like I was faking it to look cool. I still have a bit of trouble with the "deities as beings, not just anthropomorphic principles". It's not that I have any trouble imagining them as such, nor do I doubt the honesty of those who have told me of their own experiences. I just, personally, haven't experienced them for myself, and, well, I'm a cynical bastard, even about the things I like. On the making of the offerings, well, the way I understand it, it's not so much of a sacrifice, more like inviting someone to dinner. Like drinking a toast to someone who cannot be there, or honoring family or friends who are no longer there.
Edit: Oh, and our old stories are the best. The counts for a lot with me.
Edit: Oh, and our old stories are the best. The counts for a lot with me.
Tyra
Member
Oy ve, F Slim, are you ready for a rant then, cuz I feel one coming on:
A. I do not have the PM function turned off. It's about as next door as it will get. That problem is inherent when a small number of people are spread over a large area, so we have to find alternative ways of connecting. I do honour to my ancestors by telling you about them. It is never once a waste of my time. It is my priveliege, not your debt.
B. There are a few newsgroups out there which have formed to prevent your problem of not feeling connected to others at your "stage of development". Some of them are full of morons. I'd recommend trying one of the European groups for starters, if you're interested. They can be a good tool if you can find a group with a moderator who's not out to create his very own church where he gets to set the rules (common in North America among faiths like mine, where there is no dogma).
C. And this is the important bit: NOBODY SAID IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE EASY TO GAIN THE KNOWLEDGE. That's why it is a sacred thing and a sacred act to search for it. It is not easy. If it were easy, you would not have to think long and hard and search inside yourself to find what you are looking for, and if you don't do those things, you've only learned an empty shell with no substance to it. There are plenty of people out there who think they are asatru but who do not understand what it all really means. That's because they've read all the right words and lerned to burp them up at the right time. Connecting the words with the soul is a whole another thing. Saying you are something and living it are also two different things. You have to walk the walk AND talk the talk, or it doesn't add up.
If you want to be Norse in any way, religious or not, it will not be important that someone told you how to do it. YOU do it how it feels comfortable to YOU - that is the only "right" way to worship them according to this religion. Yes, there are historical presedents, but ther are more than one. In fact, there are many very different accounts. If you do not connect by leaving an offering, then that is not how you connect. Then maybe you are the kind of person that connects better with an utseita or a drumming session or by singing or guided meditation or whatever. Some indians connect with peyote. Some of us just get "connected with", whether we like it or not...some have to use peyote to "connect" with their gods.
And btw, I think of offerings exactly in the way Bates does, not in terms of submitting or what have you, but in terms of a meeting of two souls, two friend for a meal, or a gift exchange - there is historical presedence for both, and it has to do with time and geographical place which one was more suited - this is just how I personally connect, and I think you connect differently with different gods just like you connect differently with different people. Some people like to be submitted to, some respect you moe if you don't. I don't think Odin would know what to do with me if I lay down on the ground and prostrated myself before his likeness. Loki, on the other hand, wouldmaybe think it was the bees knees... If I need to borrow money, I can go to my friend Mary Ann and say "Hey, Mary Ann, can I please borrow $20?" or I can go to my mom and say "Oh, hi mom. I'm having a grwat day. How are you? Yes, it's nice out - I wish I had $20, cuz there's this cool book I saw while I was out with the kids today" (and next thing she'd say would be "Can I send you that money or buy it on the net for you?") or I could go to mu father-in-law and crawl to him on my bare, bended knees, prostrate myself before him, lower my gaze and wail "Please, most kind and mighty Sir, please, I beg you, could you lend me $20 at 14% interest until my next measly paycheque a week from now? In return I will go to Christian church and tell my children that they are dirty little females conceived in sin, and henceforth refer to them as bastards." All three would lead to the $20 dollars in my hand, but one of those options is one that I could not live with, one I think is not my style, and so, the first option is the one I would go with. The point is that the outcome is the same, but the manner of getting there and the way I would feel once I got there is different. Can you understand it in those terms?
Having said all that, I am torn between two sorts of religious experiences. I think we brought it up here before, about how you can look at the Old Faith as a philosophy just as much as a religion. And you can look at it as ancestor worshipry. I do. I think of Odin in terms of someone who was a great chief for my people, someone who once lived and added his DNA and his philosophy to the genepool and the culture, which is what has made it possible for me to be me. But then there is also a side of this religion, which is what - to me - makes it a religion rather than a philosophy, and that's the part where I have religious experiences of a nature that I cannot explain.
I think the Bible is full of good stories that explain many things, but I also think that they are not all 100% true, even though some of them probably depict real events. I think the Eddas are great stories that explain many things, some of which are not 100% "true" in terms of real events, and some of which depict real events. They still give you the essence of what it is we are supposed to be when we are at our best, and they explain how to get there faster and with our honour and dignity intact. There are stages we must all go through to reach the end goal. We don't all get it right off the bat. We're not supposed to. Think of all the things, like penicillin, that we'd not know about, if all knowledge came neatly wrapped in a box. Life is what happens while you look.
Apparently, however I connect is fine with these gods. It's not perfect - I seem to have pissed Ran off at one point (we're OK now), but even if it were not, nobody can tell me I am doing anything wrong, because there is no such thing as an AsaPope. Historical presedence is one thing, your current practise another. Historical presedense can only give you a good way to start, because some of us are more comfortable with things that feel familiar (it's kind of like how some feel weird sitting down for a meal without saying a blessing, even though they're not catholic - we've just been taught that when you sit down for supper, you're supposed to say something). But they are not rigid rules that cannot be adapted to suit you - they never were. Don't let someone tell you how to feel, especially not in religious matters. It's none of their bussiness.
A. I do not have the PM function turned off. It's about as next door as it will get. That problem is inherent when a small number of people are spread over a large area, so we have to find alternative ways of connecting. I do honour to my ancestors by telling you about them. It is never once a waste of my time. It is my priveliege, not your debt.
B. There are a few newsgroups out there which have formed to prevent your problem of not feeling connected to others at your "stage of development". Some of them are full of morons. I'd recommend trying one of the European groups for starters, if you're interested. They can be a good tool if you can find a group with a moderator who's not out to create his very own church where he gets to set the rules (common in North America among faiths like mine, where there is no dogma).
C. And this is the important bit: NOBODY SAID IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE EASY TO GAIN THE KNOWLEDGE. That's why it is a sacred thing and a sacred act to search for it. It is not easy. If it were easy, you would not have to think long and hard and search inside yourself to find what you are looking for, and if you don't do those things, you've only learned an empty shell with no substance to it. There are plenty of people out there who think they are asatru but who do not understand what it all really means. That's because they've read all the right words and lerned to burp them up at the right time. Connecting the words with the soul is a whole another thing. Saying you are something and living it are also two different things. You have to walk the walk AND talk the talk, or it doesn't add up.
If you want to be Norse in any way, religious or not, it will not be important that someone told you how to do it. YOU do it how it feels comfortable to YOU - that is the only "right" way to worship them according to this religion. Yes, there are historical presedents, but ther are more than one. In fact, there are many very different accounts. If you do not connect by leaving an offering, then that is not how you connect. Then maybe you are the kind of person that connects better with an utseita or a drumming session or by singing or guided meditation or whatever. Some indians connect with peyote. Some of us just get "connected with", whether we like it or not...some have to use peyote to "connect" with their gods.
And btw, I think of offerings exactly in the way Bates does, not in terms of submitting or what have you, but in terms of a meeting of two souls, two friend for a meal, or a gift exchange - there is historical presedence for both, and it has to do with time and geographical place which one was more suited - this is just how I personally connect, and I think you connect differently with different gods just like you connect differently with different people. Some people like to be submitted to, some respect you moe if you don't. I don't think Odin would know what to do with me if I lay down on the ground and prostrated myself before his likeness. Loki, on the other hand, wouldmaybe think it was the bees knees... If I need to borrow money, I can go to my friend Mary Ann and say "Hey, Mary Ann, can I please borrow $20?" or I can go to my mom and say "Oh, hi mom. I'm having a grwat day. How are you? Yes, it's nice out - I wish I had $20, cuz there's this cool book I saw while I was out with the kids today" (and next thing she'd say would be "Can I send you that money or buy it on the net for you?") or I could go to mu father-in-law and crawl to him on my bare, bended knees, prostrate myself before him, lower my gaze and wail "Please, most kind and mighty Sir, please, I beg you, could you lend me $20 at 14% interest until my next measly paycheque a week from now? In return I will go to Christian church and tell my children that they are dirty little females conceived in sin, and henceforth refer to them as bastards." All three would lead to the $20 dollars in my hand, but one of those options is one that I could not live with, one I think is not my style, and so, the first option is the one I would go with. The point is that the outcome is the same, but the manner of getting there and the way I would feel once I got there is different. Can you understand it in those terms?
Having said all that, I am torn between two sorts of religious experiences. I think we brought it up here before, about how you can look at the Old Faith as a philosophy just as much as a religion. And you can look at it as ancestor worshipry. I do. I think of Odin in terms of someone who was a great chief for my people, someone who once lived and added his DNA and his philosophy to the genepool and the culture, which is what has made it possible for me to be me. But then there is also a side of this religion, which is what - to me - makes it a religion rather than a philosophy, and that's the part where I have religious experiences of a nature that I cannot explain.
I think the Bible is full of good stories that explain many things, but I also think that they are not all 100% true, even though some of them probably depict real events. I think the Eddas are great stories that explain many things, some of which are not 100% "true" in terms of real events, and some of which depict real events. They still give you the essence of what it is we are supposed to be when we are at our best, and they explain how to get there faster and with our honour and dignity intact. There are stages we must all go through to reach the end goal. We don't all get it right off the bat. We're not supposed to. Think of all the things, like penicillin, that we'd not know about, if all knowledge came neatly wrapped in a box. Life is what happens while you look.
Apparently, however I connect is fine with these gods. It's not perfect - I seem to have pissed Ran off at one point (we're OK now), but even if it were not, nobody can tell me I am doing anything wrong, because there is no such thing as an AsaPope. Historical presedence is one thing, your current practise another. Historical presedense can only give you a good way to start, because some of us are more comfortable with things that feel familiar (it's kind of like how some feel weird sitting down for a meal without saying a blessing, even though they're not catholic - we've just been taught that when you sit down for supper, you're supposed to say something). But they are not rigid rules that cannot be adapted to suit you - they never were. Don't let someone tell you how to feel, especially not in religious matters. It's none of their bussiness.
