what Obama has in store for service members wounded in battle

[Dead Winter]

We have the best health care system in the world. Bar none. Hands down. People from other countries are brought here or choose to come here. It's extremely rare for it to happen the other way around.

An emphatic NO would be the appropriate response to this. You just pulled that out of your ass and speak as though it were fact just because you want to believe it. Just because Fox News and George Bush said so doesn't mean it's true. In fact, they're lying through their teeth. The United States ranks 37th out of 191 countries. Friggin' COLOMBIA, a nearly third-world nation, ranks 22nd, with France at number 1 and Italy at number 2. The US does NOT have the greatest health care system in the world and this is a FACT...it's not even close. Are you kidding? Who are these people coming from all over the world to partake in the crappy American health care system? The US has the best medical SERVICES in the world, but the US health care system is piss poor and shameful. The people who come from other places to get health care in the US are either filthy rich or they're using THEIR OWN COUNTRY'S health care system to pay for it. The only reason you don't see it the other way around is because most Americans still think that they have great health care.

The only people who make this claim are people who have never lived anywhere else but the US and just hear this crap on Fox News or "somebody told me". It's not just bullshit...IT'S A LIE. If the health care system is so great in the US, then why is it broken? Why is there health care reform going on? In principle, the US health care system would be the greatest if insurance companies weren't such greedy scumbags, but due to this health care McCarthy-ism going on these days that's never going to change unless the American people will for once put quality of life ahead of profit. Fat chance of that happening though.

In any European country, if you've got cancer and you don't have a way to pay for treatment, they're not going to just let you die (Chuck Schuldiner anyone?). My father-in-law had to have his entire stomach replaced due to cancer and you know how much he paid? About 50 euros.

It can't work this way in the US because it's not cost-effective but there has to be some sort of in-between.

And to be honest, the last time I was in an American hospital I wasn't impressed AT ALL. Nationalism has blinded Americans to think that they have the best of everything when it's just not true and the only people who can't see that are the Americans themselves. I'd never, EVER go back to an American health care system by choice. EVER.

Americans have this notion that socialized medicine is the only outlet in Europe, which goes to show you how little they know about the world around them. You can either use the state-run health care program, which has some flaws but overall works fine, or you can go the private route. You can get insurance and see a private doctor JUST LIKE IN THE US. There is a choice everywhere else except for the US.

I won't even get into the military doctors. I'd rather have some medicine man rub some herbs on my chest when I've got a lung infection than ever go to military doctors again. A friend of mine almost died because the flight doc completely missed the gigantic hole in his lung that was leaking blood and fluid. So he sent him to the local civilian doctor here. The doc took one look at his x-ray and said, "Your doctor didn't see this?!?!?!?" They rushed him into surgery that day. How do I know this? Because I was with him every step of the way and saw it first-hand.

If any Americans are considering joining the military just for the benefits, you may want to reconsider. Sure it's free but that doesn't help if you die first. It happens all the time.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

An emphatic NO would be the appropriate response to this. Do you have the facts to back this up? I do. The United States ranks 37th out of 191 countries. Friggin' COLOMBIA, a nearly third-world nation, ranks 22nd, with France at number 1 and Italy at number 2.

The only people who make this claim are people who have never lived anywhere else but the US and just hear this crap on Fox News or "somebody told me".

That's a good point, Dead. I have nothing to go by other than the fact that I see people from other countries travel to the U.S. for care, and I see U.S. technology and doctors travel to other countries to treat people. As far as your list of rankings go, I'd have to question the source of your information (who compiled it and why?) and on what objective standard is it based?

And I do apologize for my American patriotism. I'm proud of my country and think it's great, just as you -- if you're from Europe -- think where you live is great. There's nothing wrong with national pride. In fact, I think it's sorely lacking in today's world.

If the health care system is so great in the US, then why is it broken? Why is there health care reform going on?

That's the point. It's not broken. As I indicated in my post, the vast majority of Americans are happy with their health care. Can it be improved? Sure. But is it broken? No.

As to why health care reform is going on, I think that's a political issue best left for others to decide -- and for the facts to insinuate.

In principle, the US health care system would be the greatest if insurance companies weren't such greedy scumbags, but due to this health care McCarthy-ism going on these days that's never going to change unless the American people will for once put quality of life ahead of profit. Fat chance of that happening though.

I disagree with and take offense to your blanket assertion that insurance companies are "greedy scumbags." There's nothing wrong with profit. In fact, without it, no country on earth would exist -- nor would any metal festival. Profit is essential for sustainability and growth. If you think profit is so evil, try working for nothing for a while. You work to get paid. You work harder to get paid more to get farther ahead. That's profit. That's capitalism.

Insurance companies are businesses. Businesses have to make a profit or they cease to exist. It's that simple. Governments must do this as well. Their "profit" is not spending more than they take in. When expenditures exceed income -- as is the case right now -- it has a negative affect on everyone. So although it may seem that governments are more benevolent and care for people more than the "greedy scumbags" in insurance companies, that's actually not the case. Government will run out of money, too. And then it will have to make the tough choices that you now condemn insurance companies for making. Hence, health care rationing, end-of-life-counseling, and denial of service. Why is it okay for a government to do that to its citizens, but not okay for an insurance company?

Are people becoming more self-centered and less apt to help others? Possibly. But that's not the fault of corporations or capitalism. That's the fault of individual people.

A good example to rebut your line of reasoning is to consider Socialistic or Communistic countries. Presumably, they're all about the individual over the evils of capitalism and corporate greed. Presumably, such government are absolutely benign and altruistic to a fault.

Everyone can plainly see that's not the case. Governments are not neutral in nature, function, or form. They're comprised of people -- people who may very well be becoming more self-centered and less apt to help others. Or, worse yet, people who want to control and use others. Or exterminate them for their own political gain.

Such is true for hospitals and insurance companies as well. Some are great because their people are great. Others are awful because their people are awful. Hospitals and insurance companies take on the personalities of the employees who work there. So it's not possible to condemn any corporate or entity as if it exists apart from the people within it.

 

[Dead Winter]

You have to understand where I'm coming from. I'm American but I live here. I was in the military for 9 years and decided to stay here when I separated.

I apologize for my somewhat brash tone, but it really gets under my skin to know that there is a better option available and that people are ignoring it. Again, this wasn't really aimed at you and was mainly aimed at the attitude in the US today.

I've seen both sides and that's what frustrates me. I see how good it is here and I'm ashamed that our leaders in the US would continue to allow American citizens to suffer for the sake of profit. It disgusts me. Maybe I'm just a little idealistic, but in my opinion, I don't believe that an insurance company should have the power to determine whether you live or die. That's the point I'm making and that's the problem I see. Insurance companies may be businesses, and I understand they have to make money, but we're not talking car insurance here. They are denying people coverage to medical care that they need and in turn people are dying. This is unacceptable. This is not car insurance...this is a person's life we're talking about here.

I'm not some tree-hugging commie hippie or anything, but this isn't the way I understood capitalism to be. This isn't the America I grew up in. There comes a time when people have to realize that there are some things that money shouldn't enter into. There comes a time when being a human being is more important than making your stock go up.

Again, I'm really sorry if I came across as a bit of a prick, it's just a hot button for me.

The only people I see who have any real heartburn about this are insurance companies and misinformed Americans. That's not a big surprise. Until the US realizes that it can't put a price on everything, nothing will change. American society these days is so vapid and fake...it's all about acquiring STUFF. I come for a visit to see my family and after a week I'm ready to leave again. There is no life in the US anymore. Everyone goes to the mall to buy crap, goes to Wal-Mart to buy crap, goes to a chain restaurant that's just like the one right across the street to eat fake crappy food, goes to the movies to watch crap, and then seals themselves up in their home afterward to play with all the crap they bought, protecting themselves from anything on the outside. I can't live that way and until people stop putting a price on everything, health care isn't going to improve. People need to start looking at their lives as something more than a vessel to buy shit.

 

[freakchylde]

Well, as far as I can tell that's exactly what they're trying to do. With this OPTIONAL health care program, you have the OPTION to get either government-run health care or private insurance. I really don't understand what the big deal is...people have been crying for years about Medicare and how it doesn't do enough. Well guess what? Medicare is a government-run health care program. And the retards in the town hall meetings who say, "Keep your government hands off my Medicare" should be shot right in the head for their complete and utter stupidity.

No, optional means you can get something, or you don't. It's not required. Healthcare is being required, there's no option. Either you take behind door #1, or door #2, there is no choice of not choosing.

As for Medicare, ever think they might be complaining, because they know this bill will make it worse?

obstruction is something entirely different, and thats what the republicans are doing. just trying to stop everything by doing anything.

it gets us nowhere.
sorry, but obama and the overwhelming democratic majority were elected by the majority of the voting country to do this, and they have tried long enough to hold the republicans hand along the way.

I hope the Reps succeed. I'd rather they get nothing done, then screw us even more. The Dems were not elected on Health Insurance reform, if they were, Hilary would have succeeded years ago when this was her pet project. They were elected on other promises (like transparency, ending the war, closing Gitmo) and the whole concept of "they aren't Bush&co." If Health Insurance reform was the clincher, then why are so many people against it?

The US does NOT have the greatest health care system in the world and this is a FACT...it's not even close. Are you kidding? Who are these people coming from all over the world to partake in the crappy American health care system? The US has the best medical SERVICES in the world, but the US health care system is piss poor and shameful. The people who come from other places to get health care in the US are either filthy rich or they're using THEIR OWN COUNTRY'S health care system to pay for it. The only reason you don't see it the other way around is because most Americans still think that they have great health care.

So you, like other talking heads, are using Health Care to mean Health Insurance? Say what you mean. US health insurance companies are taking part in the tourism trade as well, because it's cheaper to pay for services overseas than it is here. It's not one-sided at all.

In any European country, if you've got cancer and you don't have a way to pay for treatment, they're not going to just let you die (Chuck Schuldiner anyone?). My father-in-law had to have his entire stomach replaced due to cancer and you know how much he paid? About 50 euros.

It can't work this way in the US because it's not cost-effective but there has to be some sort of in-between.

Depends on the country, and depends on the issue. As everyone likes to talk up the VA, I'll be happy to relay my friend's issue that she's been having with them for years. She's been in need of fixing a broken back, and got nothing but complete and utter fuck-ups by starting with the worst VA hospital in the States (in GA). They released her without the surgery needed to repair the vertebra, it's persisted and gotten worse. She finally got approval to see a civilian specialist, and then had the surgery denied because it "wasn't required". Top that with the fact that she was recently diagnosed with cancer. And yes, her treatments are being rationed.

While European models work well for the smaller, short-term care (cut it out and all's good, replace it and all's good), how do you guys fare with long-term care? I know the UK ain't all that grand when it comes to that, to the point their system is almost bankrupt as well.

I'm all for doing things in a smarter manner, but yes, our hospitals and the treatments needed get completely screwed over by INSURANCE COMPANIES, as it is. Government health insurance plans are not going to improve that, nor are they going to improve the care being received. The government plan is being set up to act just like a regular insurance policy that's on the market - ALREADY. Including means to control costs, including but not limited to, denial of care, rationing and waiting lists (this is in the HB). That is the thing that Americans don't want (least, according to the pollsters).

Personally, I'd rather see people stop going to the Doc for every sniffle, and paying out-of-pocket more. One of the main problems, was allowing insurance companies to be for-profit, and the only way that a gov't plan is going to be better, is if it's not for-profit. But that's not going to happen.

Now, back to the Medicare issue...if you want to keep that cost managed when you get old enough to be REQUIRED to be on it, don't earn a lot of money. Don't have a huge retirement fund, and live piss-poor when you do retire. One of the ways they're screwing with Medicare, is upping the premiums for those who "can afford it". My parents are going to have to pay $700/mth for it, because their investments bring them too much income in their retirement years. And they don't get to opt out. Gotta love gov't theft.

 

[Dead Winter]

So you, like other talking heads, are using Health Care to mean Health Insurance? Say what you mean. US health insurance companies are taking part in the tourism trade as well, because it's cheaper to pay for services overseas than it is here. It's not one-sided at all.

I did say what I meant. It's no use having the best equipment if you'll never get to use it for yourself because your insurance company won't cover it. That's like buying a Ferrari with everything but the steering wheel.

Depends on the country, and depends on the issue. As everyone likes to talk up the VA, I'll be happy to relay my friend's issue that she's been having with them for years. She's been in need of fixing a broken back, and got nothing but complete and utter fuck-ups by starting with the worst VA hospital in the States (in GA). They released her without the surgery needed to repair the vertebra, it's persisted and gotten worse. She finally got approval to see a civilian specialist, and then had the surgery denied because it "wasn't required". Top that with the fact that she was recently diagnosed with cancer. And yes, her treatments are being rationed.

Let's not even get into military/VA benefits. You're better off going to some hippie tree-hugger who puts rocks on you to heal you.

While European models work well for the smaller, short-term care (cut it out and all's good, replace it and all's good), how do you guys fare with long-term care? I know the UK ain't all that grand when it comes to that, to the point their system is almost bankrupt as well.

Long-term is just as good as short-term. You get treatment until you don't need it anymore. My father-in-law was diagnosed with stomach cancer 30 years ago and they cut out the cancerous part, replaced it with plastic, and every time he had a problem he came in and got treatment. It reappeared this year and they had to remove the rest of his stomach and now the whole thing's plastic. He gets regular visits, takes medicine with special enzymes to help him break down his food, and went into early retirement due to his medical condition. He's just as active as he always was, just needs to be careful not to overdo it.

Taxes are a bit higher so that offsets the cost, but like you said, not everyone goes to the doctor for a sniffle. It's managed in a much better way.

I'm all for doing things in a smarter manner, but yes, our hospitals and the treatments needed get completely screwed over by INSURANCE COMPANIES, as it is. Government health insurance plans are not going to improve that, nor are they going to improve the care being received. The government plan is being set up to act just like a regular insurance policy that's on the market - ALREADY. Including means to control costs, including but not limited to, denial of care, rationing and waiting lists (this is in the HB). That is the thing that Americans don't want (least, according to the pollsters).

Personally, I'd rather see people stop going to the Doc for every sniffle, and paying out-of-pocket more. One of the main problems, was allowing insurance companies to be for-profit, and the only way that a gov't plan is going to be better, is if it's not for-profit. But that's not going to happen.

Now, back to the Medicare issue...if you want to keep that cost managed when you get old enough to be REQUIRED to be on it, don't earn a lot of money. Don't have a huge retirement fund, and live piss-poor when you do retire. One of the ways they're screwing with Medicare, is upping the premiums for those who "can afford it". My parents are going to have to pay $700/mth for it, because their investments bring them too much income in their retirement years. And they don't get to opt out. Gotta love gov't theft.

I agree with most parts. I don't think this health care reform is going to be a one-size-fits-all package. Neither do I think that it's going to solve all the problems...but it's a step in the right direction. We Americans want something perfect right out of the box. We don't want to have to wait and be patient to iron out all the wrinkles. Americans are gonna have to wait and see how it works and make the necessary changes to it. Right now the ball needs to get rolling, that's all. People aren't even giving it a chance...everyone's an expert and they all know what's best for the country. All I'm saying is to wait and see how it works and then fine tune it.

Also you have to realize that we pay more taxes than you do to have these programs. So you have a choice: either pay more taxes and get better coverage or have insurance but regulate it so everyone can get affordable health care. We pay about 10% more in taxes here in Italy than in the US, but then again they also pay about 800 euros per year to go to college...if your family is upper middle class. If your family is poor then it's free. And the universities here are way ahead of state universities in the states, with the requirements for graduation much steeper.

Hmmm...affordable health care AND affordable universities where anyone can go? We're not talking community college, either. We're talking University of Udine who's a partner with MIT, many of whose students go on to work at CERN.

If your citizens are healthy and educated, your country will be healthy and educated. If your citizens are uneducated and unhealthy, the country will be so as well. For some reason people don't understand that.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

I agree with most parts. I don't think this health care reform is going to be a one-size-fits-all package. Neither do I think that it's going to solve all the problems...but it's a step in the right direction. We Americans want something perfect right out of the box. We don't want to have to wait and be patient to iron out all the wrinkles. Americans are gonna have to wait and see how it works and make the necessary changes to it. Right now the ball needs to get rolling, that's all. People aren't even giving it a chance...everyone's an expert and they all know what's best for the country. All I'm saying is to wait and see how it works and then fine tune it.

That's like saying, "There seems to be something wrong with Engine #2. Let's get out on the wing and fix it" while you're in the plane flying across the Atlantic.

"Wait and see how it works and then fine tune it" is the wrong way to look at it. Health care represents 1/6 of America's economy. It affects every single human being who lives here. The current health care bill will cost trillions of dollars. Some say it will bankrupt America.

This is not something you just toss out there to see how it works, like when Cook's Illustrated tests different brands of cinnamon in a recipe to see which is better. This is something you take a very long time to discuss, getting input from a wide variety of sources and then -- unless politics is your goal, rather than improving health care -- then you put forth a bill.

Debate and discussion are needed. A quickly written, partisan bill -- that few have read and fewer still understand -- rammed down our throats in the dead of night is not the way to do it. What's happening now smacks of tyranny and subterfuge. It looks 100% political in nature -- and not in the best interests of Americans. Again, if it's so great, why did Congress opt out of being covered by it?

And here's my point: If it doesn't work, then what? Then you've taxed Americans to the hilt, created massive -- and I do mean massive -- layers of bureaucracy, and have potentially disrupted everyone's life in a major way. What do you say -- "Oops. We're sorry. Let's put it all back the way it was and try again"?

No. This health care bill is reckless, short-sighted, political, and so densely written that it will take teams of lawyers to figure it out. Rather than simplifying our health insurance and our lives, it's going to complicate things in an extraordinary way -- as only government can.

I hear what Dead is saying. The system should be improved. I think that's something we all can agree on. But laying waste the current system while we figure out if what we just did is going go work is one of the most foolish examples of government recklessness I've ever seen.

It's likely for this reason -- this wanton recklessness and rapid build-up of government bureaucracy and debt -- that has caused Obama's approval ratings to tank. According to the most recent Rasmussen poll (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ministration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll), Obama's Approval Index rating has steadily declined since he took office (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...a_administration/obama_approval_index_history).

Even those who strongly supported Obama are scratching their heads wondering why he has a "Fire! Ready! Aim!" approach to everything. There's never any time spent thinking, debating, talking. It's act now, ask questions later. That's a very poor way to lead a country. And it leads to incredible misuse of taxpayer money, which many are pointing out.

 

[Up&Away]

1. If this health care is so good, why did Congress exempt itself from it?

Because they are hypocrites. The elitist Libs won't allow themselves to be "lowered" to our level. Makes you want to just punch all the Dems in the face.

2. If this health care is so good, why are the Dems voting in the dead of night, reluctant to have their 2,000-page bill read aloud (or even read at all!) before it's voted on, and unwilling to listen to any opposition to it?

They haven't read it themselves...heaven forbid someone else actually read it. :Smug:

3. If this health care is so good, and will save so may lives, and improve health care in the United States dramatically (as Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is fond of saving), why doesn't it take effect for 3-4 years after it's passed, somewhere in the year 2014? Why not have it take effect immediately so that all those lives can be saved? Why wait?

They have to collect the increased taxes over those years in order to help pay for this insane program. You know...the taxes that B. Hussein & the Dems promised wouldn't be raised. Wait...wait...it's coming...

4. Why has the Congressional Budget Office been raising red flags all along about the health care bills under consideration -- only to have certain members of Congress or those in the White House ignore or pooh-pooh the CBO findings?

What? Let facts get in the way of them telling you how you can live your life?

 

[booB]

Well, as far as I can tell that's exactly what they're trying to do. With this OPTIONAL health care program, you have the OPTION to get either government-run health care or private insurance.

Seems to me that it's only "optional" if we don't all have to pay tax dollars for it.

 

[Dead Winter]

There is no easy answer and it looks like everyone is going to have to take a bite of this shit sandwich anyway, but doing nothing and blaming everything on Dems isn't helping either. Eight years of the Bush administration brought the US to her knees and although people may be tired of hearing about it, it's true. Is it the fault of the Republicans? ABSOFUCKIN'LUTELY. This isn't an opinion, this is a historical fact. 20 years ago it wasn't like this. 20 years ago everyone had decent health care. But the Republicans just couldn't handle a president who got a blow job in the oval office so they decide it's much better to invade a country and then stop halfway through and invade another one with bullshit intelligence. Yeah, they surely did a fine, stand up job during their tenure and made life better for everyone. Do you have any idea how pissed I was to be sent to Iraq and then to find out that the whole WMD thing was a sham? Dick Cheney should be hanged and Donald Rumsfeld should be put in front of a firing squad for treason.

Republicans are no longer Republicans anymore; they're neocons. The entire political system has shifted so far to the right that today's Democrats would be considered yesterday's Republicans. What was once a bastion of hope and prosperity has turned into a laughing stock of hypocrisy. No one comes to the US anymore for a better life unless they're from a third world oppressive dictatorship because the US can no longer offer a better life. The American Dream is dead and buried. Sure, I miss some things about the states but it's all superfluous and convenience-driven. I miss the relatively low bureaucracy and the 7-11 being open 24 hours but that's about it.

America could have great health care if they got rid of the tentacles of imperialism. We don't need giant bases in Europe. We don't need to continue to hand out money hand over fist to the rest of the world that takes it and then spits in our faces. America doesn't need to be protectionist but it needs to take care of its own for a change. I was completely against the bailouts for everyone, even the banks...and look what happened. The jobs aren't getting any better and yet the banks are still making money, some even posting record earnings. It makes me sick. Let them wither and die and then the next time they won't be so hasty in stealing everyone's money. If the American automobile industry doesn't want to go under, then maybe they should make a car that's actually worth a shit and gets more than 20 mpg. Seriously, their new goal is to get 35 mpg? Are you fucking kidding me? This is 2010 and that's the best they can come up with? Pardon me as I laugh uncontrollably.

Now as the Dems try to fix the gargantuan fuck up that the Republicans have caused, they're left with so little to work with that failure is all but assured. Obama needs to do more and be a little more heavy-handed, imo. But he won't because no one in the Democratic party has a spine to stand up to idiot neocons and tell the Republicans to go fuck themselves.

 

[J-Man]

thanks guys. ain't that hard being here tho , were you army j-man? 14 series at Bliss? my brother was stationed at bliss when he did his time, I forget his actual MOS now though but he deployed with 82nd after leaving Bliss

RMS - I wasn't a 14 series I was a 140 series, I was a CW4 My last 12 years spent as a Patriot Warrant, I retired in 1992 with 22 years service. I came to Ft Bliss in 1978 for Warrant Officer school, and just kinda got stuck here. Then on to work with a Civilian Defense contractor working with the US ARMY on Air Defense weapons systems Patriot Mainly.

 

[J-Man]

An emphatic NO would be the appropriate response to this. You just pulled that out of your ass and speak as though it were fact just because you want to believe it. Just because Fox News and George Bush said so doesn't mean it's true. In fact, they're lying through their teeth. The United States ranks 37th out of 191 countries. Friggin' COLOMBIA, a nearly third-world nation, ranks 22nd, with France at number 1 and Italy at number 2. The US does NOT have the greatest health care system in the world and this is a FACT...it's not even close. Are you kidding? Who are these people coming from all over the world to partake in the crappy American health care system? The US has the best medical SERVICES in the world, but the US health care system is piss poor and shameful. The people who come from other places to get health care in the US are either filthy rich or they're using THEIR OWN COUNTRY'S health care system to pay for it. The only reason you don't see it the other way around is because most Americans still think that they have great health care.

The only people who make this claim are people who have never lived anywhere else but the US and just hear this crap on Fox News or "somebody told me". It's not just bullshit...IT'S A LIE. If the health care system is so great in the US, then why is it broken? Why is there health care reform going on? In principle, the US health care system would be the greatest if insurance companies weren't such greedy scumbags, but due to this health care McCarthy-ism going on these days that's never going to change unless the American people will for once put quality of life ahead of profit. Fat chance of that happening though.

In any European country, if you've got cancer and you don't have a way to pay for treatment, they're not going to just let you die (Chuck Schuldiner anyone?). My father-in-law had to have his entire stomach replaced due to cancer and you know how much he paid? About 50 euros.

It can't work this way in the US because it's not cost-effective but there has to be some sort of in-between.

And to be honest, the last time I was in an American hospital I wasn't impressed AT ALL. Nationalism has blinded Americans to think that they have the best of everything when it's just not true and the only people who can't see that are the Americans themselves. I'd never, EVER go back to an American health care system by choice. EVER.

Americans have this notion that socialized medicine is the only outlet in Europe, which goes to show you how little they know about the world around them. You can either use the state-run health care program, which has some flaws but overall works fine, or you can go the private route. You can get insurance and see a private doctor JUST LIKE IN THE US. There is a choice everywhere else except for the US.

I won't even get into the military doctors. I'd rather have some medicine man rub some herbs on my chest when I've got a lung infection than ever go to military doctors again. A friend of mine almost died because the flight doc completely missed the gigantic hole in his lung that was leaking blood and fluid. So he sent him to the local civilian doctor here. The doc took one look at his x-ray and said, "Your doctor didn't see this?!?!?!?" They rushed him into surgery that day. How do I know this? Because I was with him every step of the way and saw it first-hand.

If any Americans are considering joining the military just for the benefits, you may want to reconsider. Sure it's free but that doesn't help if you die first. It happens all the time.

I can not agree with anything you say, it is your opinion and i respect that but i can not agree.

I have been in many different countries and I have seen how their healthcare systems are, and to be honest I was not impressed with any of them. If the US is so bad then why do alot( I don't know the actual numbers) of foriegn doctors come to the US to go to medical school, do their Intership, residentsy and so forth. While in Taiwan I developed a bad lung infection, when to a Local hospital was told i had a cold, two days later a US NAVY doctor saw me and treated me for a collasped lung and basically saved my life. You say Military Doctors are bad, well there are thousands of wounded soldiers that may differ with you, I for one.

The reason we can't do our healthcare as they do in Europe is based on Poulation. There is no European country(count out the former Soviet Union) that has over 300 million people, so it is easier to manage.

Your are entitled to your opinion, but don't expect a majority of us to agree.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

There is no easy answer and it looks like everyone is going to have to take a bite of this shit sandwich anyway, but doing nothing and blaming everything on Dems isn't helping either. Eight years of the Bush administration brought the US to her knees and although people may be tired of hearing about it, it's true. Is it the fault of the Republicans? ABSOFUCKIN'LUTELY. This isn't an opinion, this is a historical fact. 20 years ago it wasn't like this. 20 years ago everyone had decent health care. But the Republicans just couldn't handle a president who got a blow job in the oval office so they decide it's much better to invade a country and then stop halfway through and invade another one with bullshit intelligence. Yeah, they surely did a fine, stand up job during their tenure and made life better for everyone. Do you have any idea how pissed I was to be sent to Iraq and then to find out that the whole WMD thing was a sham? Dick Cheney should be hanged and Donald Rumsfeld should be put in front of a firing squad for treason.

Republicans are no longer Republicans anymore; they're neocons. The entire political system has shifted so far to the right that today's Democrats would be considered yesterday's Republicans. What was once a bastion of hope and prosperity has turned into a laughing stock of hypocrisy. No one comes to the US anymore for a better life unless they're from a third world oppressive dictatorship because the US can no longer offer a better life. The American Dream is dead and buried. Sure, I miss some things about the states but it's all superfluous and convenience-driven. I miss the relatively low bureaucracy and the 7-11 being open 24 hours but that's about it.

America could have great health care if they got rid of the tentacles of imperialism. We don't need giant bases in Europe. We don't need to continue to hand out money hand over fist to the rest of the world that takes it and then spits in our faces. America doesn't need to be protectionist but it needs to take care of its own for a change. I was completely against the bailouts for everyone, even the banks...and look what happened. The jobs aren't getting any better and yet the banks are still making money, some even posting record earnings. It makes me sick. Let them wither and die and then the next time they won't be so hasty in stealing everyone's money. If the American automobile industry doesn't want to go under, then maybe they should make a car that's actually worth a shit and gets more than 20 mpg. Seriously, their new goal is to get 35 mpg? Are you fucking kidding me? This is 2010 and that's the best they can come up with? Pardon me as I laugh uncontrollably.

Now as the Dems try to fix the gargantuan fuck up that the Republicans have caused, they're left with so little to work with that failure is all but assured. Obama needs to do more and be a little more heavy-handed, imo. But he won't because no one in the Democratic party has a spine to stand up to idiot neocons and tell the Republicans to go fuck themselves.

Bush has nothing to do with what's going on in Washington right now, particularly with the unconstitutional, liberty-quashing health care (or is that stealth care because of the way it's being rammed through) bill.

And what does the auto industry have to do with health care? (Incidentally, making a car go farther on a tank of gas is no easy task. A car can only become so light, or so small, before it's incredibly unsafe to drive. And we wouldn't have to put a death-grip squeeze on the auto industry if we'd drill for oil right here on our own shores.)

I'm not sure what's driving your profound anger. But I can understand some of what you're feeling. You're frustrated. You feel powerless and helpless. Some of what you write sounds like you're a Ron Paul-type independent. That's a good thing. But I encourage you to stick to facts and deal with what's happening right now in Washington - not what you think happened in the previous eight years.

Whatever hatred you feel for the previous administration is blinding you to what's going on with this administration -- starting with what it's doing with our health care.

Keep in mind the last Congress was not as Republican as this Congress is Democrat. Whatever bills were passed, or whatever military actions were undertaken, where done so - for the most part - in a bi-partisan way. Far more so than today. So to conclude that Republicans are at fault is to ignore or seriously misread the facts.

Your anger should not be directed to Republicans or Democrats. It should be directed at both -- and all those in Washington who prefer statism to liberty.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

People aren't even giving it a chance...everyone's an expert and they all know what's best for the country. All I'm saying is to wait and see how it works and then fine tune it.

I forgot a very important point.

The Dems have inserted language into the bill that makes it un-repealable. In other words, they're trying to pass a bill that cannot be repealed by any Congress, ever. No matter what the people think.

That's part of why one GOP member of Congress threw up a red flag of unconstitutionality.

So, you see, just passing this bill to see how it works and then fine-tune it is precisely what the Senate doesn't want you to be able to do. The Dems are out for blood. They want to pass a bill that becomes, in effect, the 11th Commandment. I believe it was this kind of tyranny that caused our Founders to break away from England.

Think about it, Dead. A law that cannot be repealed. Now, why do you suppose Harry Reid buried that deep in the bill, somewhere around the 1100-page mark?

 

[Force10]

I forgot a very important point.

The Dems have inserted language into the bill that makes it un-repealable. In other words, they're trying to pass a bill that cannot be repealed by any Congress, ever. No matter what the people think.

That's part of why one GOP member of Congress threw up a red flag of unconstitutionality.

So, you see, just passing this bill to see how it works and then fine-tune it is precisely what the Senate doesn't want you to be able to do. The Dems are out for blood. They want to pass a bill that becomes, in effect, the 11th Commandment. I believe it was this kind of tyranny that caused our Founders to break away from England.

Think about it, Dead. A law that cannot be repealed. Now, why do you suppose Harry Reid buried that deep in the bill, somewhere around the 1100-page mark?

Only parts of the bill have language about preventing repeals in the future. And consititutionality would be determined by the courts. There isn't anything that can't be undone. Calling this "tyranny" is exaggeration.

 

[J-Man]

Now as the Dems try to fix the gargantuan fuck up that the Republicans have caused, they're left with so little to work with that failure is all but assured. Obama needs to do more and be a little more heavy-handed, imo. But he won't because no one in the Democratic party has a spine to stand up to idiot neocons and tell the Republicans to go fuck themselves.

Whoa there big boy, Democrats are not the saviour of our country and neither are republicians. For you to sit there and say they will fix the republican fuck-up is wrong, the economic problems was not caused by one party and one pary alone, it was caused many years ago and continued to fester until now and will continue>as to the solution I don't have a clue, neither do the Demorats or Republicians. This is akind to your saying, and i quote,"I won't even get into the military doctors. I'd rather have some medicine man rub some herbs on my chest when I've got a lung infection than ever go to military doctors again." Here your saying all Military Doctors are bad, which is so far form the truth it is comical.

I get the impression you are disgruntled former service member and US citizen, that chose to stay in Italy, well good for you that is your choice, albeit a choice you made on your won accord. I don't know your reasons, and it is none of my business,. America may not be perfect, but it is my country, and I love it with all it's problems and faults, and would not care to live anywhere else. I have lived in Italy, also Germany, Greece, Korea, Taiwain, and Saudi Arabia, and none of them hold a candle to the US. I served my country proudly for 22 years, shed my blood sweat an tears to give you and others "THE RIGHT" to voice your opinions in open forums without fear of reprisal, and for you have the freedoms you enjoy in this country. Oh and by the way at last report doesn't Italy's government have communist in positions of power, just a question.

 

[Dead Winter]

I can not agree with anything you say, it is your opinion and i respect that but i can not agree.

I have been in many different countries and I have seen how their healthcare systems are, and to be honest I was not impressed with any of them. If the US is so bad then why do alot( I don't know the actual numbers) of foriegn doctors come to the US to go to medical school, do their Intership, residentsy and so forth. While in Taiwan I developed a bad lung infection, when to a Local hospital was told i had a cold, two days later a US NAVY doctor saw me and treated me for a collasped lung and basically saved my life. You say Military Doctors are bad, well there are thousands of wounded soldiers that may differ with you, I for one.

The reason we can't do our healthcare as they do in Europe is based on Poulation. There is no European country(count out the former Soviet Union) that has over 300 million people, so it is easier to manage.

Your are entitled to your opinion, but don't expect a majority of us to agree.

While I disagree as well, I too respect your opinion. Can you detail which countries you're speaking of? I'm talking about Western Europe and you're talking about Taiwan and probably Central America. There's a big difference. Also, you have to remember that when you're in the military you don't live in another country; you're stationed there. You're excluded from all local programs and benefits and must go through an intermediary which is the military. Sometimes this is great and sometimes it's not. I hear people talk every day about how their life was here and there while they were in the military but that's never a good example. Getting everything you need on base is NOT living in a foreign country. Sometimes it's better but sometimes it's not.

I agree 100% with you about how the US cannot have a system like Europe's; the US is just too big and too populated. In fact, I mentioned that earlier. A system unique to the US must be put in place that protects the rights of her citizens. The fact that health care and higher education in the US is considered a privilege and not a right, however, is downright shameful and ridiculous.

As far as military doctors and facilities go, are you forgetting the travesty that is Walter Reed? Let's not even get into PTSD and the downright horrid system in place for dealing with it. The "cover your ass" mentality is deplorable.

 

[Dead Winter]

Bush has nothing to do with what's going on in Washington right now, particularly with the unconstitutional, liberty-quashing health care (or is that stealth care because of the way it's being rammed through) bill.

Rammed through? Much like all the bills rammed through during the Bush Administration? Republicans are getting a taste of their own medicine and I for one am all for it. What's the other option they've brought to the table? Have they mentioned ANYTHING remotely resembling reform? No. They'd love to just keep everything the same so the machine can keep going like it has been the past 8 years.

And what does the auto industry have to do with health care? (Incidentally, making a car go farther on a tank of gas is no easy task. A car can only become so light, or so small, before it's incredibly unsafe to drive. And we wouldn't have to put a death-grip squeeze on the auto industry if we'd drill for oil right here on our own shores.)

Really? Just about every other foreign car company has done it and done it well. There's a reason why no one imports American cars, yet America imports so many foreign cars. The American auto industry is just another example of how wasteful, archaic, and inefficient industries are becoming in the US...and that ties directly in with American health care.

I'm not sure what's driving your profound anger. But I can understand some of what you're feeling. You're frustrated. You feel powerless and helpless. Some of what you write sounds like you're a Ron Paul-type independent. That's a good thing. But I encourage you to stick to facts and deal with what's happening right now in Washington - not what you think happened in the previous eight years.

Whatever hatred you feel for the previous administration is blinding you to what's going on with this administration -- starting with what it's doing with our health care.

Keep in mind the last Congress was not as Republican as this Congress is Democrat. Whatever bills were passed, or whatever military actions were undertaken, where done so - for the most part - in a bi-partisan way. Far more so than today. So to conclude that Republicans are at fault is to ignore or seriously misread the facts.

Your anger should not be directed to Republicans or Democrats. It should be directed at both -- and all those in Washington who prefer statism to liberty.

How can you say to focus on what's happening right now and not the past when what's happening right now is a direct result of the last 8 years? You can't just say, "Why you gotta bring up old shit?" and then move on.

There was a Republican Administration along with a Republican-controlled Congress that just rammed shit through just like what the Dems are doing now. Any opposition to the war in Iraq was met with disdain and one's patriotism was called into question. Well, I've got news for them. A true patriot ALWAYS questions his government because the government DOES NOT make a country. I am a patriot to my country, not my government, and it is a citizens DUTY, not right, but DUTY to question one's government. I have nothing but disgust for those who would question my patriotism simply because I dissent against hypocrisy. And as far as something being "unconstitutional", do we really have to go there? Do you REALLY want me to bring up all the bogus and unconstitutional bills and acts put in place by the Bush Administration? My biggest beef with the Obama Administration is how he hasn't done enough to tear those things down. He's just going with the flow, as usual. Standard Democrat ROE.

While I have less criticism towards the Obama Administration than the Bush Administration, that doesn't mean I'm happy with how things are going. Obama needs to grow a pair and actually start doing something instead of making nice speeches and accepting awards. However, people want him to be Jesus. You can't hand someone a pile of shit and then criticize them for not making it into potpourri less than a year into their term. Obama should be a little more like Bush was, actually. Just give them the finger and ram it through. Sadly, Dems aren't known for having a backbone and standing up for what they know is right.

And what IS going on with this administration? Health care reform? Fixing the mess that is Iraq by telling the Iraqis to stop fucking around and fix their own shit since we're tired of holding their hands? Boosting the troop levels in the forgotten war in Afghanistan to finish what was started...you know, the reason we actually went on the offensive in the first place, only to stop in the middle and create a quagmire that rivals even Vietnam?

The entire reason the Obama Administration hasn't done as much as we'd like is because it's busy wiping the ass of the past administration's mistakes.

 

[Dead Winter]

Whoa there big boy, Democrats are not the saviour of our country and neither are republicians. For you to sit there and say they will fix the republican fuck-up is wrong, the economic problems was not caused by one party and one pary alone, it was caused many years ago and continued to fester until now and will continue>as to the solution I don't have a clue, neither do the Demorats or Republicians. This is akind to your saying, and i quote,"I won't even get into the military doctors. I'd rather have some medicine man rub some herbs on my chest when I've got a lung infection than ever go to military doctors again." Here your saying all Military Doctors are bad, which is so far form the truth it is comical.

I get the impression you are disgruntled former service member and US citizen, that chose to stay in Italy, well good for you that is your choice, albeit a choice you made on your won accord. I don't know your reasons, and it is none of my business,. America may not be perfect, but it is my country, and I love it with all it's problems and faults, and would not care to live anywhere else. I have lived in Italy, also Germany, Greece, Korea, Taiwain, and Saudi Arabia, and none of them hold a candle to the US. I served my country proudly for 22 years, shed my blood sweat an tears to give you and others "THE RIGHT" to voice your opinions in open forums without fear of reprisal, and for you have the freedoms you enjoy in this country. Oh and by the way at last report doesn't Italy's government have communist in positions of power, just a question.

I didn't say they will fix it; I said they're trying to fix it with all the tools available to them. They really don't have that much to work with right now.

Yes, the Italian government does has Communists, Fascists, and Capitalists in positions of power, but it's exactly like the bleeding hearts on the left and the neocons on the right in the US. It's just a name. The Communists here are no further left than the bleeding hearts on the left in the US and vice versa. The Italian government is a democracy with a Parliament, Prime Minister, and President. Not that that changes their tendency to cater to their own agendas...much like the US. If you lived in Italy like you said you did you would know and understand this.

And leave the "I fought for your freedom" tirade at home because I'm so sick of hearing people say that. I fought for it too, dammit, yet I can still think for myself without having to throw that in people's faces every time I disagree with them, as if that somehow makes my opinion correct and yours wrong because I followed orders and went into a warzone. You CHOSE to join the military just like I did. You'll not get a pat on the back from me for doing what you signed up to do. Maybe the cute yellow ribbons and flag-wavers make you feel all warm and fuzzy and important, but they mean nothing to me because most of the people waving those flags don't understand the first thing about how the world works. I don't need to justify myself to anyone and I especially don't want a pat on the back for doing what I VOLUNTEERED to do. The only difference is that I'm not swayed by blind nationalism and I can tell if something's a duck if it walks, talks, and acts like a duck. I love my country too, but that doesn't mean I have to support it no matter what. That doesn't make you a patriot. That makes you a sheep (not you personally). I chose to stay here because life here is better for me and much more fulfilling. That's it. I'm still an American citizen. It's a personal choice. Would you rather live among thousands of years of culture and history or would you rather have the ability to go to Wal-Mart at 3 in the morning? It's personal preference. Disgruntled? Not really. Just got tired of the military turning into a mockery of itself instead of focusing on the mission at hand. All I ever wanted to do growing up was be in the military. Leaving after 9 years was hard but it was the right decision. Do I miss it? Absolutely. Would I go back? Absolutely not.

You didn't LIVE in any of those countries. You were stationed there. You did your shopping on base, went to base medical facilities, and commuted to base every day for work. Saying, "Buongiorno", "Guten Tag", or "Kamsahamnida" to a few locals doesn't mean you lived there. We lived in a bubble when we were in the military and to go around and say that you KNOW how things are done in all those countries is irresponsible and just plain false. We VISITED these countries...we didn't live there. You see, most people you debate with about that will shut up after that because all you have to say is, "I lived there because I was in the military and I know how it works". They'll think, "Ok he's been there so he must know because I'm ignorant of that place since I've never been there". But you're not debating with some college punk. You're debating with someone who not only visited most of the same places you did, he LIVES there now on the local economy. You can't sway me with your "I was there 15 years ago for a couple of years so I know how it is" or "I fought for my country so my opinion is the correct one". When you wear shit like that as a badge, you only hurt your own argument. THIS IS WHAT IS MAKING AMERICANS IGNORANT ABOUT THE REST OF THE WORLD. They talk to someone who has a friend who knows someone who had a roommate whose goldfish was stationed around the world and all of a sudden they're experts, when it's complete BULLSHIT. If anything, being in the military stationed around the world LIMITS your exposure and experience there.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

The entire reason the Obama Administration hasn't done as much as we'd like is because it's busy wiping the ass of the past administration's mistakes.

The facts don't bear you out, my friend. Not in either side of that equation.

1. The Obama administration has done more, more quickly, than any administration in recent memory. That's part of why Obama's public opinion polls are tanking. People think he's moving too quickly, and in the wrong direction.

2. Obama could immediately - and I mean immediately -- pull troops out of Iraq, Iran, and any other place they're located. But he chooses not to. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. Instead of halting the flow of deficit spending, he chose to double it. Instead of supporting legislation that would have created jobs, he supported legislation that increases the deficit, seeks to raise taxes, and doesn't create jobs. He could have immediately closed Gitmo as he promised. He chose not to. He could have immediately fostered the kind of not-Washington-politics-as-usual that he promised. He did not.

Seriously. It's not possible to look at this administration and conclude with any honesty that it's not doing something because of anything Bush did or did not do. This is Obama's economy, his Congress, his war, his health care. This is the all-Obama all-the-time news media. He has power to do whatever he wishes to do. To say that he's not doing more because of Bush is a serious oversight of facts and current events.

The only thing stopping Obama -- since he has full majority in both Houses -- is the American people who raise bloody hell when he tries to yank America so far to the left that people wouldn't recognize it. When people march on Washington, when Tea Parties spring up across the nation, and when Congressmen and Congresswomen are inundated with faxes, phone calls, and e-mails because of what he's doing, that slows Obama's agenda. Nothing else could possibly do so.

Stop making excuses for Obama. And stop blaming Bush.

And return to the topic at hand -- health care.

Thanks.

 

[Dead Winter]

The facts don't bear you out, my friend. Not in either side of that equation.

1. The Obama administration has done more, more quickly, than any administration in recent memory. That's part of why Obama's public opinion polls are tanking. People think he's moving too quickly, and in the wrong direction.

2. Obama could immediately - and I mean immediately -- pull troops out of Iraq, Iran, and any other place they're located. But he chooses not to. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. Instead of halting the flow of deficit spending, he chose to double it. Instead of supporting legislation that would have created jobs, he supported legislation that increases the deficit, seeks to raise taxes, and doesn't create jobs. He could have immediately closed Gitmo as he promised. He chose not to. He could have immediately fostered the kind of not-Washington-politics-as-usual that he promised. He did not.

Seriously. It's not possible to look at this administration and conclude with any honesty that it's not doing something because of anything Bush did or did not do. This is Obama's economy, his Congress, his war, his health care. This is the all-Obama all-the-time news media. He has power to do whatever he wishes to do. To say that he's not doing more because of Bush is a serious oversight of facts and current events.

The only thing stopping Obama -- since he has full majority in both Houses -- is the American people who raise bloody hell when he tries to yank America so far to the left that people wouldn't recognize it. When people march on Washington, when Tea Parties spring up across the nation, and when Congressmen and Congresswomen are inundated with faxes, phone calls, and e-mails because of what he's doing, that slows Obama's agenda. Nothing else could possibly do so.

Stop making excuses for Obama. And stop blaming Bush.

And return to the topic at hand -- health care.

Thanks.

First of all, we don't have troops in Iran, unless you're speaking of the few clandestine operatives there. Yanking troops all at once out of Iraq would be an irresponsible maneuver, but over time pulling them out would lessen the blow and not de-stabilize it as much, which is what he's doing. Iraq is not going to end well no matter who is in office. Get used to this fact.

Secondly, my entire criticism of the Obama administration is that he isn't doing enough to reverse the actions of the Bush administration. Like you, I don't understand it. That's precisely what upsets me. He could do it but he isn't and I don't understand why.

Thirdly, I don't think any more can be said about health care reform than has already been said. We could go in circles for days debating the same thing over and over but it would be an exercise in futility.