what Obama has in store for service members wounded in battle

Sorry, this not only punches a hole in the chest of republicians, but all Americians, minus members of the government.

More like a dagger in the chest. It's no longer a government "for the people". The majority of Americans don't want this...and our representatives are thumbing their noses at those who elected them. Except the Republicans, they seem to have the majority's back on this. They probably have their own motives but regardless...in a war, allies usually do come at a price.
 
Gotta wonder how the people in Massachusetts feel about this.

Despite the GOP only having 16% registration in the state, they voted in a Republican over a Democrat for a Senate seat previously held by a legendary champion of "single-payer," in a direct effort to "Kill the Bill"....and the Democrat leaders in Congress have basically given them a huge "Fuck you!" by avoiding another vote in the Senate and trying to pass THAT bill instead.

If a bill is so toxic that the Democratic leadership has to consider "deem and pass" in an effort to establish plausible deniability in November ("Hey, I didn't vote for ObamaCare, I only voted to change it and it just happened to be attached to that bill!"), then it's a bad bill.

Oh, well. Elections have consequences. I have at least a dozen friends who wanted to Make History, and now regret that choice bitterly.
 
As much as I believe that every legal resident in the US should be afforded reasonably priced healthcare, this is not the way to go about it, fining people if they don't have healthcare, you got to be kidding, and the people in government are excempt from this LAW!!!! What???? I thought all laws applied to all people, no matter what your status is.

Sorry, this not only punches a hole in the chest of republicians, but all Americians, minus members of the government.

Politicians are exempt from just about everything...I'm sure this isn't news, or at least I hope it's not.

Moreover, and I'm just hypothesizing here, but politicians are paid with taxpayers' money, right? Doesn't that mean they're on a federal health care plan? What's more, do you REALLY think a politician couldn't afford to provide health care to his/her own family and that they would ever be in the position to even have to pay a fine in the first place?

Being outraged over this is akin to saying, "Well the military and state and federal agencies are exempt as well!!!"...well, yeeeeessss, technically they would be. However, they're covered by state and federal insurance benefits, so it's moot.
 
More like a dagger in the chest. It's no longer a government "for the people". The majority of Americans don't want this...and our representatives are thumbing their noses at those who elected them. Except the Republicans, they seem to have the majority's back on this. They probably have their own motives but regardless...in a war, allies usually do come at a price.

So if the majority of Americans don't want this, why is this even a bill? Seriously, I want to know. All I've heard from the opposition is complete and utter bullshit like, "We're going to have to stand in line to get treatment!" and, "It's communism!!!" and, "They're going to ration out medical care!" and, "We're all going to be paying for abortions!!!!".

In all fairness, if this is a good cross-section of the people's thoughts who are opposed to this bill, I'd gladly pay taxes for more abortions. That means that fewer children in America will be brought up to be complete retards.
 
No I don't. Yes I am.

I mean, you guys are the only ones I've heard make a decent argument against it; at least one that is coherent and well-thought out. All I've seen in the media is Republican rhetoric and Glenn Beck-ish idiots, which is why I asked for more clarification. Your arguments against it are the only ones that I've come across that don't make me want to drive a railroad spike through my ocular cavity.
 
Did you just ignore the other part of it or were you hoping I wasn't American so you could just say, "Why do you care?"

My entire family lives there...is that a good enough reason to ask questions?

Call me crazy, but I always thought it was a good idea to have a firm grasp on current events, especially ones from the country of which one is a citizen. Now, I know most young American tweens would probably disagree, but that wouldn't really bode well for us as a nation if we all watched Jersey Shore instead of keeping up with current events.

I looked at Jman's link that he posted, the PolitiFact site or whatever it is, and it's a great site. I posted it because it seemed to brush aside all the bullshit we've been hearing about it. There are, however, some questionable issues raised with it as well; mainly, how the hell you're gonna pay for it. That's my biggest concern. If it works like they say it will then I have no problem with it and everyone trying to throw it under the bus is going to have to eat some crow. However, if it doesn't work...well...it looks like there will just be more of the same then. But from what I've seen most critics of the plan are against it for two reasons: one, they just don't like Obama and nothing he does will ever be good enough and two, they are already upper middle to upper class citizens and they don't want to pay more taxes on their yacht.

And to that I say tough titty.
 
Did you just ignore the other part of it or were you hoping I wasn't American so you could just say, "Why do you care?"

My entire family lives there...is that a good enough reason to ask questions?

Call me crazy, but I always thought it was a good idea to have a firm grasp on current events, especially ones from the country of which one is a citizen. Now, I know most young American tweens would probably disagree, but that wouldn't really bode well for us as a nation if we all watched Jersey Shore instead of keeping up with current events.

I looked at Jman's link that he posted, the PolitiFact site or whatever it is, and it's a great site. I posted it because it seemed to brush aside all the bullshit we've been hearing about it. There are, however, some questionable issues raised with it as well; mainly, how the hell you're gonna pay for it. That's my biggest concern. If it works like they say it will then I have no problem with it and everyone trying to throw it under the bus is going to have to eat some crow. However, if it doesn't work...well...it looks like there will just be more of the same then. But from what I've seen most critics of the plan are against it for two reasons: one, they just don't like Obama and nothing he does will ever be good enough and two, they are already upper middle to upper class citizens and they don't want to pay more taxes on their yacht.

And to that I say tough titty.

Good points in here, First it doesn't matter that you choose to live in Italy versus here, that is your choice, and at least you are staying abreast of US current events, which can sometimes be warped by the foreign media.

That is my major concern also HOW THE HELL IS THIS GOING TO BE PAID FOR? Well i do know our medicare taxes are going up, saw this coming a long time ago even before Obama, oh well.

I still say, lets revamp the healtcare insurance and Dr. malpractice insurance first, then when the insurance preimiums come down, then al ot more people will be covered. But i know that is a pipe dream. It is my experience that alot of people are more concerning with status symbols(cars, big screen tv's, houses, clothes) than they are with insurance whether Healthcare or car insurance. Off my soapbox for the day.
 
I'm thinking along the same lines as J-Man. I may be a bit optimistic, but I'm also trying to be pragmatic as well. What the Dems have created looks good on paper; however, EVERYTHING looks good on paper.

To be quite honest, I think simply reigning in the insurance companies would be enough. Some may cry foul, but I think strong government oversight is needed for these insurers who have gone much too long without any checks and balances. It should be illegal to deny medical care to those who need it, regardless of income. This whole government fine thing sticks in my craw, though. Even though I know it's to help pay for it, still it just seems...well, unconstitutional. I personally believe that by the government reigning in these insurance companies, people won't be put in a position to even have to pay a fine. Everyone wants affordable health insurance and I don't see how threatening to fine people without it will do any good. This isn't car insurance. If they do it right then people won't be without insurance in the first place.

Another thing that needs to be changed is the "ME!" mentality. This is a societal problem and not a governmental one. If people can go about their lives without looking for some kind of compensation for every little thing that happens to them, that in itself will cut down drastically on superfluous and frivolous lawsuits. This can only be changed by the people, however. I think there should be stiff fines and penalties for frivolous lawsuits...something that will give a person pause and time to reflect on what they're doing and if it is worth it. These people who sue for millions when they don't deserve it should be thrown in jail. If you lose your case because it's complete bullshit, you go to jail for a month for wasting tax payer dollars and the courts' time.
 
Did you just ignore the other part of it or were you hoping I wasn't American so you could just say, "Why do you care?"

Drama much?:Smug:

My entire family lives there...is that a good enough reason to ask questions?

Ok, since your family hasn't given up, hasn't bailed, and is still here struggling to maintain the freedoms we currently have but are slowly losing...

Taking in consideration that the idiots who wrote the bill and voted yes for it don't know what's in it makes it hard to say how it's going to affect everyone who still lives here and pays taxes. :erk: But, if members of your family make over 250k (or was it 200k?, 150k?, who knows they keep dropping it!) their taxes go up immediately. Don't worry though because we all will have to pay higher taxes eventually to pay for this catastrophe. Those making over 250k won't be enough. It's the government after all running this thing. And everybody knows it always costs more than the government says it will. It's not their $ they're spending anyway. Why should they care?:rolleyes:

Your family members will have to have health insurance. They don't have a choice in the matter any longer, the Liberal Democraps decided what's best for them as opposed to your family thinking for themselves. If they want to buck the system, they will get fined. Last I heard it the fines would be $695 for every member of the household or 2.5% of their income, whichever is higher. The IRS will be the enforcement agency of the Obamacare. You know...the IRS...the government agency that everybody hates? They will have free reign to be even more invasive in your family's lives now. :mad:

If your family members work for small companies, they can more than likely expect their insurance to be dropped. Due to rising premiums that are sure to come because of the limitations/regulations placed on insurance companies, it will be cheaper for small companies to pay the fines. Yeah there's some tax credits that will be available to companies but most will not qualify for them. All of this forces your family to buy their own insurance at exhorbitant premium costs or pay the fines. OOOO...l bet they can't wait! :loco:

This is assuming of course that your family members aren't of the entitlement, welfare grabbing, hind tit sucking variety. That bunch hit the jackpot with Obamacare. They get free healthcare and they don't have to pay a thing. Much like everything else the government gives them for free. But, everyone else in this country gets to pay for the entitlement bunch's free stuff with higher taxes. That makes me all giddy inside. :ill:

BTW - Some people in the heathcare industry (doctors, surgeons,etc) are already saying they will more than likely get out of healthcare opting to teach or consult. They will be making less $ under Obamacare so they have no impetus to stay in it. Less doctors + more people getting free healthcare = long waits to get taken care of for everybody regardless of your healthcare status. Let the rationing begin.

I hope this helps. ;)
 
Ok, since your family hasn't given up, hasn't bailed, and is still here struggling to maintain the freedoms we currently have but are slowly losing...

Haha, nice. Are you somehow implying that I'm undeserving of being an American because I choose to live abroad? If I were to wave a flag and say, "Amurricuh is the greatest country in the world!", would that increase my standing? Could I be a real American then?


Your family members will have to have health insurance. They don't have a choice in the matter any longer, the Liberal Democraps decided what's best for them as opposed to your family thinking for themselves.

This boggles my mind. Not necessarily the whole fining thing, which I don't agree with, but the fact that you view NOT having health insurance as a viable option, and that the government is trampling on your rights by forcing you to have it. That's like saying, "The government shouldn't force us to graduate high school!" Really? Is that really a big problem? Everyone SHOULD have health insurance, and to complain that the government is forcing you to have it is a lot like complaining that it's illegal to abuse children. Granted, the fining thing doesn't seem like such a good idea, but you seem more indignant over the fact that you're now forced to get it than the fact that you will be penalized for it. It's irresponsible to not have health insurance. Period.

If your family members work for small companies, they can more than likely expect their insurance to be dropped. Due to rising premiums that are sure to come because of the limitations/regulations placed on insurance companies, it will be cheaper for small companies to pay the fines. Yeah there's some tax credits that will be available to companies but most will not qualify for them. All of this forces your family to buy their own insurance at exhorbitant premium costs or pay the fines. OOOO...l bet they can't wait! :loco:

No, this is where the government plan kicks in. If you are unable to find decent health insurance, according to the bill you will be able to purchase a low-cost plan from the government-run insurance plan if you fail to find a decent private one. There is always a choice.

This is assuming of course that your family members aren't of the entitlement, welfare grabbing, hind tit sucking variety. That bunch hit the jackpot with Obamacare. They get free healthcare and they don't have to pay a thing. Much like everything else the government gives them for free. But, everyone else in this country gets to pay for the entitlement bunch's free stuff with higher taxes. That makes me all giddy inside. :ill:

This is most definitely not an apt description of my family. They all have health insurance because they have a responsibility to their children. To completely forgo health insurance would be both stupid and irresponsible. Also, not everyone is an entitlement whore. There are poor people in the US in dire need of health care and if they are able to get it this way, that's fine with me. If someone else has to forgo buying another plasma television for their house in order to make this work, too fucking bad.

BTW - Some people in the heathcare industry (doctors, surgeons,etc) are already saying they will more than likely get out of healthcare opting to teach or consult. They will be making less $ under Obamacare so they have no impetus to stay in it. Less doctors + more people getting free healthcare = long waits to get taken care of for everybody regardless of your healthcare status. Let the rationing begin.

Yet again, more knee-jerk reactions. You're absolutely sure this is going to happen, aren't you? You've never seen another health care model but you're absolutely sure this one is going to fail. Just go ahead and get it over with and call it a commie plot.

I called you out on this because you said, "The majority of Americans don't want this new health care plan" when it's just not true. They're nervous about this plan because they're unsure about how it's going to work, but that doesn't mean they don't want to see the government step in and take hold of this situation. If you want to break it down even further, it's actually closer to Americans wanting health care reform, but they just don't want to pay for it. Just like everything else these days, it's the "I'll support it as long as it doesn't affect me" mentality. "I'll wave my little flag, display my yellow ribbons, put some bumper stickers on my car but that's the extent that I'm willing to go because I can't be assed with actually having to contribute. If you tell me I have to get involved, I'll rant and rave and call the government leaders a bunch of communists like a 3-year old because it gets in the way of ME ME ME ME ME."
 
You're right, No-Mercy. So, argue this.

Reasonably young, healthy guy making a decent, but not huge pile of money: "Hmm, $695 penalty for not having health insurance, or (say) $1500 to get an insurance plan through a private carrier......hmm....I'm young and reasonably healthy....gee, I'll just pay the penalty and save some dough."

Result: money goes to Uncle Sam, insurer does not get the benefit of covering a reasonably healthy citizen.

Same dude, two years later: "Damn, now I'm sick with a pre-existing, long-term condition. I need health-care! But wait! The insurance companies HAVE to cover me now thanks to Obama, so I'll just sign up now for health insurance and they'll have to cover all of the treatments!"

Result: private insurer gets a new customer, but they're sick and will cost the insurer much more than the premiums they're allowed to collect. Repeat this a few million times. Insurers have to raise rates to remain in business -- remember, they are only clearing 2.2% profit margins on average, far less than almost every other class of business.

Cost of health-care skyrockets yet again and some insurers inevitably fail, as the Dems planned all along. "Look at those evil heath insurance companies who we successfully demonized back in 2009-2010! They're charging even MORE now! Imagine that! Something must be done!"
The self-caused crisis allows them to launch their public insurance option, which can lose money like a drunken sailor at a whorehouse because it need not make even a minimal profit, and will probably lose its ass like virtually everything else the government attempts to run. More regulation of the health-insurance industry follows, like premium caps and lower deductibles. Most, if not all, private insurers fail, with tens of thousands of health professionals unemployed.

Result: single-payer.

I mean c'mon, does anyone NOT see where this is going to go? :lol:
 
So how many of you here have ever actually been in a gov't run health clinic?

They're awful.


Just sayin'.
 
Haha, nice. Are you somehow implying that I'm undeserving of being an American because I choose to live abroad? If I were to wave a flag and say, "Amurricuh is the greatest country in the world!", would that increase my standing? Could I be a real American then?

Again, drama much?:rolleyes:




This boggles my mind. and that the government is trampling on your rights by forcing you to have it.

What boggles your mind doesn't interest me.

I don't want government to tell me to do anything. I'll make up my own mind. Period.



No, this is where the government plan kicks in. If you are unable to find decent health insurance, according to the bill you will be able to purchase a low-cost plan from the government-run insurance plan if you fail to find a decent private one. There is always a choice.

Misinformed you obviously are. There is no government run plan. The single payer option was taken out. There will be no low cost plan. There is no choice. Some may...MAY...qualify for Medicaid if their income is low enough ($14,404 for individuals and $29,326 for a family of 4). Other than that long shot, you won't have insurance if you can't afford it and you will be fined regardless.

The fact that you haven't done the research on this means you're BSing it. Which pretty much negates anything you have to say about it.



Also, not everyone is an entitlement whore. There are poor people in the US in dire need of health care and if they are able to get it this way, that's fine with me. If someone else has to forgo buying another plasma television for their house in order to make this work, too fucking bad.

Of course it's fine with you, you no longer pay taxes here.:lol:

l like my plasma tv and my 85 mph boat. But, l want a boat that goes 100. I would rather spend my $ on that than giving free healthcare to some crackhead. I made good decisions with my life to have what I've earned. That crackhead fucked up his. I don't want invasive government to fuck up mine.



Yet again, more knee-jerk reactions. You're absolutely sure this is going to happen, aren't you?

I can only go by what my friends in the medical field have told me about their feelings on the situation. Below are some messages from these people...

"As many of you guys know, I am an practicing anesthesiologist. I work in a large level I trauma center. I've been very attentive to the healthcare debate. Needless to say, I am dissapointed with the vote congress took last night. I would like to share my concerns.
My main concern is for the care than my parents will receive under medicare as a result of this bill. The will reach 65 in two years. I'm not certain our country will be around when I'm 65 without a change in direction. You cannot decrease medicare spending by half a trillion dollars and not expect to compromise care. The principal means of Medicare expenditure reduction in the Senate bill are mediated through reductions in payments for physician services. Medicare and medicaid already pay for my services at a rate of 33% of what private insurance pays. How much lower do you believe reimbursement rates can go before caring for medicare patients becomes cost prohibitive.

Also, in regards to cost, this bill takes into account the SGR or sustainable growth rate which reduces payments from medicare yearly. This year, the reduction was planned for 21%. However, since I have been involved in medicine, I have yet to see the SGR actually take effect. It is "fixed" yearly in legislative scramble to keep payments where they are and Nancy Pelosi has said there will be a "doc fix", which would erase the savings from SGR on a permanent basis. I don't know why this hasn't received any media coverage.

Thus, with the current bill, one of two scenarios will develop. Either seniors will get limited/substandard care because the money isn't there, or this plan will bankrupt our nation. I am positively not alone in my view. I don't know a single physician who doesn't think we need some type of reform, but I also don't know a single physician who likes this plan. Below is a list of medical societies who opposed the current bill. This compromises about 200,000 physcicians. BTW, the AMA only makes up about 15% of practicing docs. Take a look at it and see if you think there is need for concern.

American Academy of Facial Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery
American Academy of Otolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery
American Association of Neurological Surgeons
American Association of Orthopaedic Surgeons
American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
American College of Osteopathic Surgeons
American College of Surgeons
American Osteopathic Academy of Orthopedics
American Society of Anesthesiologists
American Society of Breast Surgeons
American Society of Cataract and Refractive Surgery
American Society of Colon and Rectal Surgeons
American Society for Metabolic & Bariatric Surgery
American Society of Plastic Surgeons
American Urological Association
Congress of Neurological Surgeons
Society for Vascular Surgery
Society of American Gastrointestinal and Endoscopic Surgeons
Society of Gynecologic Oncologists"

"My father is a retired Hospital administrator, Sister is an RN, Bro is a heart surgeon...
I don't know all of the intricacies of the bill (I doubt anyone understands it all unless they are medical professionals).
But the consensus among the medical professionals that dad, sis and bro talk about is not good.
Bro inlaw also has a mechanical engineering degree for one of his undergrads schools and is seriously thinking about leaving medicine for something else.
Good doctors leaving the profession will make the Govt health care similar to VA hospitals and give us another AmTrak or USPS to fund for the rest of our lives."


"As a ************** rep for 12 years this is what I have seen. Most offices already limit the number of non-commercial insurance patients b/c of reimbursement rates. I would assume that if those rates go down, they will limit that number to a greater degree which means that the offices that do accept medicare and medicaid will be overwhelmed. "