What percentage of your music has been downloaded?

[J.]

Then why even bother going through duplication and marketing? Just let people download them.

You're missing the point. Real fans actually want something tangible from the band.

Let me put it this way. If Nasheim's music was ONLY available through download, I wouldn't give them the time of day. Sorry, but it's the truth, and this would hold true for any band, no matter how groundbreaking, revolutionary, or genre defining they were.

mp3s suck ass and are for saps.

 

[Nate The Great]

I agree with J. and Erik. I just like having an actual album in my hands.

 

[MajestikMøøse]

I've got quite a few mp3s, but I don't download them that often anymore.

Most of the mp3s I have are bootlegs and rare stuff that I can't find anywhere else easily (like the Agalloch demo) or an album which I already own on a different format (like a 7" or a tape) which I rip to my computer so I can listen to it with a greater convenience.

 

[lurch70]

OK. This is the deal. I don't care if artists don't get money, because they shouldn't. What I DO care about is underground record labels, who sell with SMALL profit margins and need to sell a number of copies in a series limited to perhaps 1000 to even break even -- and then people download shit like that. I couldn't care LESS if you download an EMI or Virgin release. I couldn't care LESS if you download fucking Nasheim demos. What irks me is ripping off small labels who need the income frin record sales to survive.

That is some weird double standards there ...
I don't mean this to offend you, but you are still very young and naive

You're missing the point. Real fans actually want something tangible from the band.

I am not arguing with that, as I do buy everything from "bands that are worth my dime"

BUT ...

you guys seem to be totally against downloading.

Downloading is like a blessing for the consumer really. We can weed out the crap easier without spending as much money ... while it also forces musicians to try harder and put out quality product.

SHit ... 15 years ago, before the internet and eBay, I had to buy every single fucking LP that ever came out to know what it sounded like. 80% of them were shit ... and I got stuck with them.

Give me quality product and I will invest in your band! ... otherwise you end up in my Recycle Bin.

 

[Tranquillian]

If I were Erik I'd be pissed about that last statement because it's just ridiculous.

 

[lurch70]

If I were Erik I'd be pissed about that last statement because it's just ridiculous.

Like I said, I didn't say it to offend him ... I know, because i used to think just like him at that age ( i believe late teens)

I am a music fan first and foremost, I don;t care if you are on a major label or some guy in a one cubicle office ... music is music. All bands work as hard and suffer for their art.

So it irks me when there are double standards ... supporting the underground blindly.

 

[lurch70]

Please fill in the blanks below:

I don't mean this to offend you, but you are still very young and naive, because __________________________________________________ ____________________________________.

Thanks. Please tell me how you think I have "double standards" so I can explain myself better, because I do not hold any double standards in this matter, at all.

Please see above ^

 

[lurch70]

And then you "grew up," "matured," etc... Personally, I like to call it "lose all your ideals." I don't mean this to offend you.

I really had no "ideals" so to speak, in regard to music. I always liked anyhting and everything. I always mixed up all kinds of styles even when I was young. Shit ... I listened to Run DMC when they came out alongside To Mega Therion.

I cannot speak from a musicians point of view, as I never was one ... but as a fan I can tell you that I appreciate all types of music.

My double standard issue with you was the: "i don't care if you download all from major labels ... but please spend and support indies"
That just doesn't sit well in my book ...

 

[Demonspell]

My take on this issue: Technology has made copyright laws difficult to enforce, and while I think downloading the majority of your music and making your entire collection available over the web is immoral, especially since it disproportionately affects artists who have less money and/or label support behind them, and hurts artists financially, I also firmly believe that it often leads to better purchasing decisions as Lurch described. I'm also of the opinion that mp3s are a poor substitute for the genuine article.

 

[lurch70]

1. You first said that you held similar ideals to mine in your late teens... and then you say you didn't?

It wasn't really about ideals, more about supporting bands and scenes blindly ...

2. It's not so much a double standard as choosing what I want to support. Major labels see music as a product as opposed to art, and signs what will sell -- as opposed to the owner of a small underground venture, who signs what he truly likes and feels deserves to get spread further... and let's not even get into how horribly overpriced major label releases are -- to the point where it really doesn't matter if I download an album or not, because profit margins are HUGE. With underground labels, one purchase can literally make the difference between breaking even and losing money. So with that, I choose to give my money to those I feel are worthy of it, not to those who will only use it to further ideas I find disgusting (music as product, made to sell) and if I ever should want something from a major label I will likely download it instead (or buy it used, because, well, I do like physical media, as I said...)

I think you are overly generalizing this.
There are shit and good bands in both camps. People who run undeground labels are no brain surgeons as there far more really crappy bands signed by them than good ones.

Majors, for the most part have this fine tuned so to speak (a long time ago I Interned for Polygram Records here in NY for 4 months so I saw some stuff). It is like a machine and it could be a little more cold toward the artist this is true. But also there is a lot of money invested in new bands. There was a band that they were molding when I was there, Mind Bomb, new band, kick ass band ... nothing ever happened to them even though they pumped close to 1 million dollars into their debut ( i was doing all the xeroxing for the A&R and Marketing department) ... so sometimes majors pick up good bands .. but you never hear about them as even all of God's money cannot push something that was not meant to be. ... just a little story.

Anyway ... sounds like though you are more for supporitng the business end of the industry rather than the artist itself ...

 

[lurch70]

Ok, I see your point Erik ...

But one last thing also.
As long as the Artist is "good" the labels (major OR indie) all they need to focus is on getting the word out and making sure they market the artist to the right type of audience. Good bands never need the interference of labels as far as compromising their integrity, etc.

Like I said in the past, music is only half the sale ... the other part is the personality of the band. Keeping your name in the spotlight ...

 

[Papa Josh]

I think Erik sometimes is living in a tunnel...

1. Metallica did not sell shitloads of Kill em All before Elektra intervened and picked up Ride the Lightning.

2. Manowar weren't selling loads when Atlantic picked them up.

Hell, even the indies sign bands that they think will sell. Megaforce, Metal Blade, Century Media, all have done it. I think it's criminal to state that all people at majors are assholes and that every A&R rep signs what they think will sell. Case in point: Flotsam & Jetsam. Signed to Elektra, dropped, only to be picked up by MCA, another major, but not for their sales, but because someone at the label truly enjoyed their music and wanted to take a chance on them. Granted, the bigwigs at the top are usually fuckwads, but they're not the one signing the bands, they're the ones controlling the money, allocating what they want to who ever the choose.

Regardless, the whole indy vs. major is retarded as most indies are started with the hopes of one day kicking the majors in the ass. They form a symbiotic relationship, one cannot survive without the other. The majors look to the indies for the cutting edge artists. Hell, I'm sure EMI and Virgin were indies at one point in time, but they obviously made wise decisions as far as their survival is concerned.

 

[lurch70]

Good points PJ ...

ALL labels, indie or major pick up artist with the hope of a: making money AND b: spreading their music.
All the indies do is take chances on bands that are not as mainstream in their sound AT THAT TIME. But they have as much to do with the shaping and molding of what eventually becomes a popular music scene as much as majors do.

But going back to my days at Polygram ... you would not believe the amount of bands that majors sign out of thin air almost and give them a chance. I think all of you have seen the cut-out bin at your local record store.

There are hundreds of bands on every label that never make it past their debut for every Iron Maiden

 

[SonOfNun]

To interrupt briefly...

My collection is made up entirely of CDs, Tapes and Vinyl that was bought and paid for by me and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I don't think it's real viable to say "I'm gonna download every album I own because I'd rather spend my money on booze and shit" as well. If you can't buy albums because you need the money for basic living expenses, then fine, but I'd protest people downloading all of their music because they'd rather spend their money on "other interests." Doesn't show much dedication to music.

I also don't think that downloading has to be a big tool to keep people from buying shit albums. I do a fuck ton of research before I make a haul, because I wanna know that I'm gonna like the album. Comparing the band to others that are similar, reading reviews, talking to people. Out of my entire collection I've traded one cd and have one more I'd consider trading out of maybe 250 or more, not bad. Of course, it's not a bad thing to download an album to try it out and then buy it if you like, I'm just saying it's far from necessary.

I've downloaded maybe 5 or 6 song samplers off label sites and the Lethal songs so I could hear them before they're released on any tangible format and that's about as far as it goes for me. I get no satisfaction from downloading songs and I wouldn't trade anything for the feeling of getting in a new haul of albums and having those to keep forever. I don't even like cd-rs of albums I already own or that a friend gave me, the original album being there and looking through the booklet and everything at the same time fills a void nothing else can.

 

[Hell Mike]

Personally I consider labels like Megaforce, Metal Blade, Century Media and so on to be big, while THR, Ledo Takas, Northern Silence, Witches Brew, Norma Evangelium Diaboli, Drakkar, End All Life, Orderless Evil, Northern Heritage and so on are the small ones I would like to support because they really need it. I still buy good Metal Blade releases, of course, but my support matters a lot less there. I buy what I like, period. Of course I can't buy everything today and some stuff is very hard to come by, at least for a reasonable sum, but eventually I'll get most of it somehow. If it's impossible I'll settle for downloading, but I am very well aware of the fact that sloppy listening while doing stuff like this (writing at messageboards and shit like that) does not compare to listening to an LP in solitude while taking in the artwork, lyrics and everything that comes with owning a real release.

 

[lurch70]

another point about "real music lovers" ...
if you want to see real music lovers and artists come no further than the NYC Subway (Metro for the Euro folk).

Here you will see some phenomenal musicians playing almost 8-10 hours a day non stop ... loving every minute of it.
But even those people have their hat on the floor expecting payment for their art.

 

[Ayeka]

An interesting debate. Never gets tired.

I used to download all sorts of odds and sods, never a whole album, but back in the day I was very much into using mp3s to check out new bands or fill out holes from bands I knew. This was back in the day when Audiogalaxy ruled supreme. I can't remember everything I downloaded but I do remember getting a bunch of Kristallnacht songs and hating them. Sometime late last year the memories were evoked, I got Of Elitism And War, and I tell you what, hearing those Warspirit songs I'd once laughed at was now such a joy. That hasn't really got anything to do with the debate, but it's a nice bit of reminiscing.
Heh, Audiogalaxy was so cool. I got the best remix of the DragonBall Z theme ever...hell, even Washu's "Photon, Proton, Synchroton" song from Tenchi Universe...

These days, mp3s are a no-go for me. I have no CD-burner, a 56k modem, and now Audiogalaxy is dead I'm stuck with shitty Kazaa, which I have used to download the grand total of TWO songs in the last six months probably. Centrefold by J Geils Band and The Rocker by Thin Lizzy fyi . If I had better downloading capabilities I would probably use it to burn albums I'm curious in but wouldn't have gone and bought. The band wouldn't have got my money in the first place, so at least the music's getting heard and there's a chance for them to get my money in future. Happened with Twisted Sister!

 

[Demonspell]

I do agree with Josh on some points, but the instances of major labels signing artists for reasons other than sales potential will likely occur less with the widespread consolidation of the past few years, and while many of the larger indies actively engage in competition with the majors, just as many are established in opposition to their methods of business and are content to remain niche operations.

 

[speed]

Well this has been a fun argument. I am sorry I wasnt around for the second half.

I of the Storm , again you make good points to counter some of my points. Perhaps I was a bit overzealous with some of my argument to maybe go all thw way in defending my downloading of countless cds ( which apparently subconsciously I have to defend). Yet, you still have yet to address the core problem here, and thats technology, and the existng system of music copyright law. One can only hope that the industry and lawmakers will develop a far better system, that will not only give adequate compensation to artists, but also solve the problem of downloading.

One thing we must all recognize is that this new technology offers an unbeleivable new way of not only owning music, but also of marketing music. so far the music companies have fucked it up, but they will figure it out eventually or will keep losing money.

So once again, this is a complex issue that involves technology, law, and the market. Morality is meaningless here, money is the central issue that will decide everything- and bands are caught in the middle, even big bands like Metallica can only go to congress and complain, or hire individual lawyaers to stop 30 or 40 of a few million.

 

[Erik]

You're absolutely incredible. You want them to "solve the problem of downloading" and "give adequate compensation to artists" yet all you're doing is being a part of the problem and doing something that absolutely, positively never gives ANY compensation to artists. So once again, this is a not so complex issue that involves you being a fucking asshole.