no country for old wainds
Active Member
- Nov 23, 2002
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What percentage of your music has been downloaded?
- Thread starter JayKeeley
- Start date
I just wasn't sure what you meant, because you were making generalised statements about people who download MP3s, when a lot of people (me included) DON'T do that, and are happy to spend their money on the genuine article if they like what they hear. I don't see what's wrong with that. For the record, I don't own any whole albums on MP3, just a maximum of 4 or 5 tracks per artist.J. said:
I still don't understand why you're so anti-MP3 and make a disctinction between the two, because I use MP3s for exactly that, exploring new music.J. said:
J.
Old Fart
Just from my point of view (and probably full of holes, but I tried to get the community thing across):
At a high level perspective, getting a CD-R, or tape trading is NOT the same as MP3 downloading, and I'll tell you why....
As lurch pointed out, tape trading has been going on forever and a day. Tapes have now simply been replaced by CD-Rs as a better medium. Back in the day, tapes represented entire albums, or better still, compilations made personally for one another. It was a way of getting your friends into the same music as you, and often you would trade when you saw people at shows. Even at ProgPower this year, people came down with tapes and CD-Rs to hand to friends as a way of showing them what they liked lately. This is very cool in my book.
For the most part, the difference with these trades is that TWO (or more) parties need to personally know each other in order for the trade to occur. This is actually quite healthy for the underground because it promotes community (yes, community is vital), and some thought/discussion has gone into the trade beforehand. Also, people BUY blank CD-Rs, they BUY padded envelopes, and they BUY stamps in order to send the CD-Rs to each other -- sometimes overseas. There is cost associated with doing this.
If I like a CD-R, I will buy the album. Very simple. I will then probably share the CD-R with someone else, hoping they might also like it (why keep original + CD-R?). Any CD-Rs I don't like, I'll pass onto someone else, or let them collect dust. All this also applies to promos.
As you've seen, the guys here exchanging CD-Rs are using them like promos. We're all doing write up reviews for them in seperate threads, albeit brief, but sometimes it might spur someone else to look into an album. Again, this is what we do with promos also, remembering that this is a webzine forum trying to support the scene with writers who buy music, get free promos, share CD-Rs, and pay $$ for the existence of a site and forum. This is all supportive of the scene.
Now onto MP3s....
MP3s are downloaded for free -- no medium (other than your pre-existing hard disk), no mailing cost, no envelope, etc. They are downloaded anonymously and listening thoughts are kept private. You don't care where the MP3s reside, or who originally ripped them. It's just a massive core dump on to your hard drive, and there they sit until you decide to delete them. It doesn't promote community trading which is beneficial to the underground. It does not support the scene as far as I can tell....
....unless you're buying albums based on MP3s that you like (as one would do with the CD-R). Of course that changes everything. The debate in this thread has discussed the harm in people only downloading MP3s because they're too cheap to buy the real thing (not saying anyone here does that, but these people do exist nevertheless). This means that the scene is supported by ONLY those who BUY albums, and the freedownloaders are riding their coattails.
You don't need to know anyone in order to get a free MP3. You don't need to have a webzine. You don't need to write reviews. You don't need an alliance with a record label, etc. It's all anonymous and underhanded if you only download free music and never buy anything. That is fucked up!
Of course there are permutations to all this, but I tried to squeeze it into a nutshell.
At a high level perspective, getting a CD-R, or tape trading is NOT the same as MP3 downloading, and I'll tell you why....
As lurch pointed out, tape trading has been going on forever and a day. Tapes have now simply been replaced by CD-Rs as a better medium. Back in the day, tapes represented entire albums, or better still, compilations made personally for one another. It was a way of getting your friends into the same music as you, and often you would trade when you saw people at shows. Even at ProgPower this year, people came down with tapes and CD-Rs to hand to friends as a way of showing them what they liked lately. This is very cool in my book.
For the most part, the difference with these trades is that TWO (or more) parties need to personally know each other in order for the trade to occur. This is actually quite healthy for the underground because it promotes community (yes, community is vital), and some thought/discussion has gone into the trade beforehand. Also, people BUY blank CD-Rs, they BUY padded envelopes, and they BUY stamps in order to send the CD-Rs to each other -- sometimes overseas. There is cost associated with doing this.
If I like a CD-R, I will buy the album. Very simple. I will then probably share the CD-R with someone else, hoping they might also like it (why keep original + CD-R?). Any CD-Rs I don't like, I'll pass onto someone else, or let them collect dust. All this also applies to promos.
As you've seen, the guys here exchanging CD-Rs are using them like promos. We're all doing write up reviews for them in seperate threads, albeit brief, but sometimes it might spur someone else to look into an album. Again, this is what we do with promos also, remembering that this is a webzine forum trying to support the scene with writers who buy music, get free promos, share CD-Rs, and pay $$ for the existence of a site and forum. This is all supportive of the scene.
Now onto MP3s....
MP3s are downloaded for free -- no medium (other than your pre-existing hard disk), no mailing cost, no envelope, etc. They are downloaded anonymously and listening thoughts are kept private. You don't care where the MP3s reside, or who originally ripped them. It's just a massive core dump on to your hard drive, and there they sit until you decide to delete them. It doesn't promote community trading which is beneficial to the underground. It does not support the scene as far as I can tell....
....unless you're buying albums based on MP3s that you like (as one would do with the CD-R). Of course that changes everything. The debate in this thread has discussed the harm in people only downloading MP3s because they're too cheap to buy the real thing (not saying anyone here does that, but these people do exist nevertheless). This means that the scene is supported by ONLY those who BUY albums, and the freedownloaders are riding their coattails.
You don't need to know anyone in order to get a free MP3. You don't need to have a webzine. You don't need to write reviews. You don't need an alliance with a record label, etc. It's all anonymous and underhanded if you only download free music and never buy anything. That is fucked up!
Of course there are permutations to all this, but I tried to squeeze it into a nutshell.
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
Never even thought of it this way, excellent point.JayKeeley said:
Man trading tapes back in the day was the SHIT. The best was finding some random Christmas Carol tape buried in a closet somewhere then dubbing Black Sabbath and Slayer over it for a friend.
I remember one time I wanted to make a Guns n' Roses Metallica tape for somebody, so in english class I wrote down all the track titles I could think of and had him pick the coolest sounding names. Them were the days...
Caelum Adustum
Call me Ishmael
J.
Old Fart
I don't know .. I agree with most of JK's points, but there are other ways to support bands.
For example, I have yet to actually purchase an HOM disc, but already I spent money on one of their concerts, took shots, that their label is publishing on their website for more publicity for the band. I actually wanted to buy their cd at the show, but they did not sell it (then I just forgot about it)
For example, I have yet to actually purchase an HOM disc, but already I spent money on one of their concerts, took shots, that their label is publishing on their website for more publicity for the band. I actually wanted to buy their cd at the show, but they did not sell it (then I just forgot about it)
Demonspell
cheating the polygraph
I agree, the anonymity and lack of accountability of mp3-based transactions prevents it from being a legitimate form of exchange, at least in legal terms. I can honestly say I have never discovered music through file sharing alone, some form of prior recommendation is usually required, which makes downloading more of a means than an end. It won't make the established industry obsolete, but it will force it to adapt.
unhinged
R.i.P. Lizard
I agree with jay
mp3 thievery is sucking the life out of smaller labels
it also cheapens the actual music
no effort has gone into getting it ...its just floating infornation so your not so likely to give it the time it deserves
unless its something you really want to hear
I have fuck all mp3s on my computer
i have a disk I was given with 8-9 albums on mp3
I'm actively seeking a couple of those
I did get a freind to download a captain beefheart album I couldn't get anywhere
i reckon its ok for rare / deleted stuff too
i have tons of albums traded on cdr
gradually I pick up the real cd of my favorites not least because i want the artwork
I totally agree that they're just like promos or tape trading
but I just can't afford to buy much music
so I try and do my bit to help the scene more
does that make sense?
mp3 thievery is sucking the life out of smaller labels
it also cheapens the actual music
no effort has gone into getting it ...its just floating infornation so your not so likely to give it the time it deserves
unless its something you really want to hear
I have fuck all mp3s on my computer
i have a disk I was given with 8-9 albums on mp3
I'm actively seeking a couple of those
I did get a freind to download a captain beefheart album I couldn't get anywhere
i reckon its ok for rare / deleted stuff too
i have tons of albums traded on cdr
gradually I pick up the real cd of my favorites not least because i want the artwork
I totally agree that they're just like promos or tape trading
but I just can't afford to buy much music
so I try and do my bit to help the scene more
does that make sense?
Reign in Acai
Of Elephant and Man
There is no excuse for having an artist's work on your hard drive for any moment longer than it takes for you to make the decision on whether you will or will not buy the album. I myself only need 1-2 tracks to come to this decision, as I don't wish to spoil anything.
It is in the listener's best interest to refrain from devirginizing an album in the format of mp3. It seems so cold and impersonal to me. Perhaps I'm a socio-path, who the fuck knows? Having your first impression be delivered by sub standard speakers while horn dogging on myspace isn't my idea of appreciating an artists months perspiration that has been poured in to a project. It pretty much is a slap in the face. Sure you need to know exactly what it is that you're buying in to. Logic would tell me that an album would be consistent with the one or two tracks you sample. This is heavy metal people, not 1 track wonder pop shit.
It is in the listener's best interest to refrain from devirginizing an album in the format of mp3. It seems so cold and impersonal to me. Perhaps I'm a socio-path, who the fuck knows? Having your first impression be delivered by sub standard speakers while horn dogging on myspace isn't my idea of appreciating an artists months perspiration that has been poured in to a project. It pretty much is a slap in the face. Sure you need to know exactly what it is that you're buying in to. Logic would tell me that an album would be consistent with the one or two tracks you sample. This is heavy metal people, not 1 track wonder pop shit.
Krilons Resa
Jerry's married?!
I said that back in 2004?
update: mailing CD-R's to each other are a thing of the past, trading on-line is the way to go (perhaps via FTP or even yousendits)
Although it's still cool to go hang out at a show with a CD-R comp for trade, or just to hand someone so they can listen to it in the car on the way home, or if bands bring their demos
none of this negates buying the actual album, however, back then or today
just to stir some more shit up ... especially for those of you that say that purchasing cd's helps the artist so much ...
http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-01/ff_byrne
http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-01/ff_byrne
spaffe
Geisterglut
Yeah... but that refers to big business music companies. The small labels that most people here are concerned with represent something else entirely, both economically and when it comes to ideology. As I've understood things, artists on small labels very seldom get any money so this whole argument is pretty uninteresting from the horizon of most RC posters. Most of the time it seems to be a simple question of getting back the money that you spent on releasing something
Still, it is pretty odd and it will be interesting to see what the music industry will do to survive
Still, it is pretty odd and it will be interesting to see what the music industry will do to survive
Hell Mike
fuck melodic black metal
just to stir some more shit up ... especially for those of you that say that purchasing cd's helps the artist so much ...
http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-01/ff_byrne
What Spaffe said. This does not apply to 85% of the music mentioned on this board ever, and much of it is like 50%+ packaging/manufacturing, and of what's left very little if any finds its way to the artits' pockets.
Hell Mike
fuck melodic black metal
Started reading it and it all came down to how to make money of music, which is why I dismissed it. Fuck corporate bullshit in all forms, fuck money and music in unison. It's nice to break even, would be nice to get something sometime, but that's not what it's about.
Edit: FUCK MUSIC AS AN "INDUSTRY" in short.
J.
Old Fart
I actually cleaned out my download folder over the last few months (it had been growing for several years as I either couldn't decide or didn't get around to listening to a lot of discs). I have about 130 albums in mp3 that are in my 'to-buy' list, although probably 40 of those I won't ever find outside of some ebay auction that gets over $50. Another 20 or so I have to order overseas from the band directly, which I'm reluctant to do when I have to mail cash. And I have about 5 or 6 albums that I downloaded recently that haven't either been put on the list or deleted. I deleted a few hundred, FYI. I own close to 1000 CDs now, so that makes it about 12% downloaded.
