What the hell was Arch Enemy thinking???

[NAD]

THat's the thing. Opeth were never about "simple". At least not on their earlier, better material.

True, but I have no problem with their evolution towards simpler material, as I think their first two albums suck ass. An amalgamation of riffs stapled together in no apparent order is not what I look for generally.

(concerning Domination)
I thought it was widely known. Magazines and zines say it. Terrorizer says it all the time.

Never read it and never thought it, I've owned the album since its release and will probably throw it a 10 year anniversary party in 2 years. One of the greatest albums ever done, metal or otherwise. Oh wait, I know, David Vincent actually sings a chorus-like part in Eyes to See, Ears to Hear amidst a hurricane flurry of guitar wizardry, must be that commercial aspect I missed *rolls eyes, hangs head, or vomits, or something*

I don't read metal journalism because any I have is shite, outside of the webzine world that is. Which one is Terrorizer? Is it anything like Revolver? That's the only one I ever see on a regular basis.

 

[Erik]

After shitting out two turds like Souls of Black and The Ritual, certainly not me.

Yeah, well, while the quality of "Souls of Black" can be discussed (I like "Face in the Sky"), at least it wasn't a sell-out or soft-down. "The Ritual" is another matter of course

 

[JayKeeley]

By the way, I agree with Dreamlord in the sense that being bubble-gum metal for the masses is a bad thing.

That's fine - I totally respect that opinion, but just to clarify, are you suggesting that Arch Enemy CHANGED their style to become "bubble-gum" metal? This is what I wholeheartedly disagree with in all the anti-AoR arguyments.

In my opinion, people have to stop exaggerating the response to AoR by making it sound like Morbid Angel turned into Def Leppard.

If you equate everything next to bands like Watchmaker and Goatsblood, then ofcourse Arch Enemy sound like Britney fucking Spears. But lets keep the perspective and be a little objective about this. Compare AoR to other AE releases and the difference is absolutely MINIMAL. Megadeth went from Peace Sells to Youthanasia, but it was STILL Megadeth.

If people don't like the album for what it is, then fine, no problemo amigo....but let's not turn this into a "Reroute to Remain" agenda because that's a little far fetched.

 

[JayKeeley]

*how single threads turn into multiple debates*

 

[J.]

True, but I have no problem with their evolution towards simpler material, as I think their first two albums suck ass. An amalgamation of riffs stapled together in no apparent order is not what I look for generally.

See, that's what I loved about the first two, was the randomness and total unpredictability of where the music took you. Their newer material just bores me. The same riff over and over with the occasional acoustics thrown in.

Never read it and never thought it, I've owned the album since its release and will probably throw it a 10 year anniversary party in 2 years. One of the greatest albums ever done, metal or otherwise. Oh wait, I know, David Vincent actually sings a chorus-like part in Eyes to See, Ears to Hear amidst a hurricane flurry of guitar wizardry, must be that commercial aspect I missed *rolls eyes, hangs head, or vomits, or something*

I don't read metal journalism because any I have is shite, outside of the webzine world that is. Which one is Terrorizer? Is it anything like Revolver? That's the only one I ever see on a regular basis.

I don't know why it's considered more commercial. When I get home, I'll look up the quote for you.

 

[NAD]

That brings up a good point, I mean 90% of "extreme" music is based in pop structure. Even stuff like Opeth and Vital Remains have verses, choruses, etc. Only the real experimental stuff is nearly removed from the pop universe.

 

[NAD]

I don't know why it's considered more commercial. When I get home, I'll look up the quote for you.

I would like to see that. I know you aren't too familiar with Morbid Angel, but have you heard Domination, and would you consider it commercial?

We'll just have to agree to disagree about Opeth, but I think it is obvious that Orchid and Morningrise are extremely different from the others. I do like Orchid okay actually, Morningrise has always bothered me though, and it was my introduction to the band.

 

[J.]

Yeah, I don't know why Morningrise is considered the band's best. I find Orchid way more enjoyable. That being said, I never listen to Opeth anymore. Way better stuff out there these days. And my animosity towards anything "melody" grows by the day.

Re: Morbid Angel, I used to own the first 4, and no, I didn't think Domination sounded the least bit commercial.

 

[Erik]

Yeah, I don't know why Morningrise is considered the band's best.

I think that's quite logical, considering that it actually IS their best.

 

[Erik]

That brings up a good point, I mean 90% of "extreme" music is based in pop structure. Even stuff like Opeth and Vital Remains have verses, choruses, etc. Only the real experimental stuff is nearly removed from the pop universe.

Nearly no black metal at all has verse/chorus structures.

 

[NAD]

Does it have distinct sections though? I'm not talking about overt pop influences like a sing-a-long chorus, I'm talking about a planned song structure, which most bands have embraced for years.

 

[Erik]

Most doesn't. Black metal is generally narrative in structure. Listen to "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas," "In The Nightside Eclipse," "A Blaze In The Northern Sky," Graveland, Nokturnal Mortum or pretty much any modern BM/NSBM for examples.

Then of course we have Marduk, Dark Funeral and friends who fully embrace verse/chorus/verse/solo/chorus/chorus popisms, but those bands are not what I'm talking about. Also prototypal black metal such as early Bathory often has the same kind of structures, inherited from thrash metal of course. Bathory around "Blood Fire Death" kinda began to diverge from that though.

 

[NAD]

Fair enough, and you know I'm not terribly familiar with the cult black metal stuff anyhow.

 

[J.]

NAD, here is what Terrorizer says about Domination in their Most Important Albums of the 90's Issue:

Morbid Angel have always been a different proposition, and Domination was no exception. Spurred on by David Vincent's increasing drive to update and mainstream the band, Domination is the commercial death metal album. Along with Carcass' Heartwork, Domination was the end of logical progression for the genre. Still immensely heavy, nonetheless this was Morbid Angel at the peak of their creativity and popularity. Vincent's throat, Azagthoth's twisted, lurching rigffing and the experimental approach of Erik Rutan, most prevalent on Hatework, DOmination utilised three writers at their respective peaks. As close as death metal gets to the mainstream, but still brimming with integrity, Sandoval-ian break-neck drumming, crystal clear production and scintillating guitar grinding.

 

[Demonspell]

Getting back to Arch Enemy, I agree with the comment about the only "extreme" thing about it is the vocals, and there are some unabashed hooks on the album, i.e. We Will Rise and Leader Of The Rats. But that isn't my main objection to the album, that would be the calculated stance that Angela and Chris have been projecting, and I find the majority of the album boring and uninspiring.

 

[JayKeeley]

Getting back to Arch Enemy, I agree with the comment about the only "extreme" thing about it is the vocals, and there are some unabashed hooks on the album

Again, a description that can be applied to 99.999999999999999% of all melodic death metal, and in particular, Arch Enemy albums. You either like the style of music to begin with, or you don't - which is why my first question to npearce was why he even bothered with AoR to begin with if his preference these days is Willowtip material.

Here's the thing: I'm completely baffled as to why people went into listening to AoR expecting anything from Houses of the Holy to Destroy Erase Improve. Likewise, if I buy a Blind Guardian album, I wouldn't want to hear Suffocation.

 

[Nate The Great]

I really like all that whacked out extreme stuff, but I also like other stuff as well. For example, the new Nevermore is one of the better albums of the year for me. I like both black metal like Agalloch and black metal like Xasthur. There's nothing wrong with liking a bunch of stuff.



What I don't like is commercial sounding fluff like AoR.

 

[JayKeeley]

What I don't like is commercial sounding fluff like AoR.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that that sentence should read: "What I don't like is commercial sounding fluff like AoR or anything by Arch Enemy for that matter".

 

[J.]

If Burning Bridges, Black Earth and Stigmata were commercial sounding fluff, why weren't they on MTV? Because they were less commercial sounding? Probably. Because the band wasn't fronted by a semi-attreactive woman? Definitely.

 

[JayKeeley]

If Burning Bridges, Black Earth and Stigmata were commercial sounding fluff, why weren't they on MTV? Because they were less commercial sounding? Probably.

Nah - the ressurgence of metal on MTV is recent - I would say less than 12 months at that. I woke up this morning and flicked through the channels at 7am and found Headbangers Ball on MTV2. No way would that have happened back in 98. If Burning Bridges was released today, it would be on MTV just as much as Shadows Fall, Cradle of Filth, Hatebreed, etc.

Because the band wasn't fronted by a semi-attreactive woman? Definitely.

Jeez man, some seriously deep rooted psycho-melodrama here me thinks...!