Why do people take metal so seriously?

[speed]

So Guardian, you basically dont believe in Free Will? I mean, your argument scares the hell out of me, if we dont have free will, and we are in essence pre- programmed to live our entire lives based on our genetic patterns and surroundings, then we are ants- and pissed off ants. Where does the will come into play? Why should i even get up in the morning, if my life has been decided for me? Sure genetics predispose one to things- but genetics do not determine how one will live ones life ( unless born with retardation etc.). My parents may be circus acrobats, i may have a genetic predisposition towards flexibility or something, but i still must choose to be a circus acrobat.

Your argument seems to be taking social science, and science to their extremes; a bit communistic etc.

And you know ants do fight each other, bees as well, arent there whole classes of warrior bees etc?

Damn you people are scaring the hell out of me, i know there are people that think this way, but damn, you guys seem kinda of smart, and are willing to sacrifice indivuality and free will, and for what I would like to know?

Fuck man, people with these ideas are scarier than any pentecostal preacher, at least they believe in free will.

 

[no country for old wainds]

So Guardian, you basically dont believe in Free Will? I mean, your argument scares the hell out of me, if we dont have free will, and we are in essence pre- programmed to live our entire lives based on our genetic patterns and surroundings, then we are ants- and pissed off ants. Where does the will come into play? Why should i even get up in the morning, if my life has been decided for me? Sure genetics predispose one to things- but genetics do not determine how one will live ones life ( unless born with retardation etc.). My parents may be circus acrobats, i may have a genetic predisposition towards flexibility or something, but i still must choose to be a circus acrobat.

Your argument seems to be taking social science, and science to their extremes; a bit communistic etc.

And you know ants do fight each other, bees as well, arent there whole classes of warrior bees etc?

Damn you people are scaring the hell out of me, i know there are people that think this way, but damn, you guys seem kinda of smart, and are willing to sacrifice indivuality and free will, and for what I would like to know?

Fuck man, people with these ideas are scarier than any pentecostal preacher, at least they believe in free will.

Hehe, well there's so much I'm sure I don't understand, I can't say I'm right, or if there even is a 'right'. I don't have a definite purpose yet, either.

In response to your points: You're suggesting that only physical attributes are genetic, not mental. I'm saying that the reason you want to do something is also made from genetics and your environment. A simple example of this is accents. Take two random new-born babies and put them in exactly the same area with exactly the same environment, they'll have the same accent. However, their voice may sound a little different due to their genetic structure. Also, get two genetically identical babies and put one in Canada, the other in Australia, they'll have completely different accents, although their voice may have the same tones. This is the same with all mental attributes as well, such as wanting certain things more than others.

What I'm saying is that choice is really an illusion. That you're only choosing something because of your ancestors and your environment. I'm not sure how much that should scare me though.

 

[andrew_plamondon]

The pop structure isn't what makes the music unsophisticated.

But you did it yourself. You separated classical and jazz from the multitudes of other currently existing forms of music. As much as I love metal, I can see that there is nothing refined or respectable about going up on a stage and blasting "noise" for an hour. Even bands like Opeth, with their entire aesthetic devoted to creating transcendental music that overshoots boundaries and expectations, is limited in its sophistication. In fact, any sophistication in their music is due to the incorporation of the acoustic guitars, classical composition, and jazz textures.

Sadude, you've hit the nail on the head. It's a delicate concept to adequately explain, but I think a lot of the cultural refinement and classy-ness that comes with the delicate tinking of a jazz pianist or the evocative serenade of a symphony playing Vivaldi is lost in metal due to the Neanderthal approach towards the music and the stereotype associated as a result. And no matter what, that is how it will remain. Metal will always be minor in the grand scope and scheme of music history, because its culture is not rooted in the sophistication required to gain a foothold in the annals of history.

Even if all metalheads began wearing formal dress and headbanging/crowdsurfing/moshing was eliminated, the stereotype of extreme behavior being ubiquitously found hand in hand with extreme music would remain steadfast. As sad as it may be.

As long as I'm young, I'll don the metal tees, I'll speak the metal speak, and I'll go home and turn the In Flames and Godsmack CDs high. But when it's time to raise a family, or become a member of sophisticated human society, the noise must go to the place all guilty pleasures go.

The proverbial attic.

Well, you seem to think to some of the sophistication of the music comes from the looks of those who listen to it. I guess I disagree, but well...
But still, I come back with the definition of sophistication. You can tell HOW to be sophisticated but still, you can't tell what it is !
Sophistication isn't stuck to music, so the definition must not contain elements about jazz and classical music. When we will agree on what is sophistication, we will be able to discuss about it. Otherwise, what's the point of discussing if we're not even talking about the same thing ?

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

The pop structure isn't what makes the music unsophisticated.

This comment is irrelevant, as my comment wasn't directed to prove that pop structure makes the music unsophisticated.

But you did it yourself. You separated classical and jazz from the multitudes of other currently existing forms of music.

You completely misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that the only genres that for the most part don't incorporate pop structures on their music are jazz and classical music. There are metal bands that don't incorporate pop structures in their music. In fact, i'll go as far as saying that any band, of any genre, can make music that does not conform to pop structure. The whole pop structure thing is not that big of a deal, IMO.

.As much as I love metal, I can see that there is nothing refined or respectable about going up on a stage and blasting "noise" for an hour. Even bands like Opeth, with their entire aesthetic devoted to creating transcendental music that overshoots boundaries and expectations, is limited in its sophistication. In fact, any sophistication in their music is due to the incorporation of the acoustic guitars, classical composition, and jazz textures.

It seems that you associate sophistication with bands that intelligent people listen while they are reading. Many metal bands ARE sophisticated (and I gave plenty of examples), and if you read the definition of sophisticated you'll realize this. They may not be sophisticated to you because you have a completely different definition of the term.

It seems to me that you guys think too much about what other people think; therefore, you think that if the music is too noisy for other people to understand, it's not sophisticated.

In fact, any sophistication in their music is due to the incorporation of the acoustic guitars, classical composition, and jazz textures.

Not true at all. Your definition of sophistication is clearly messed up. So if a band uses accoustic guitars then they are sophisticated? give me a break. Even if the accoustic part is simple, it makes the band sophisticated? Accoustic parts are generaly just an extension of metal music, they are only used to add a different dimension to the music. They won't make the music any more (or less) sophisticated (the same goes for classical composition and jazz).

 

[R.I.P.2]

As much as I love metal, I can see that there is nothing refined or respectable about going up on a stage and blasting "noise" for an hour. Even bands like Opeth, with their entire aesthetic devoted to creating transcendental music that overshoots boundaries and expectations, is limited in its sophistication.

Are you saying that music has to be sophisticated to be respectable? Are you also saying that metal is essentially noise?

As long as I'm young, I'll don the metal tees, I'll speak the metal speak, and I'll go home and turn the In Flames and Godsmack CDs high. But when it's time to raise a family, or become a member of sophisticated human society, the noise must go to the place all guilty pleasures go.

The proverbial attic.

Why?

 

[Hell Mike]

The person who wrote that crap: If you lsiten to In Flames and Godsmack, I can understand why you don't consider Metal to be sophisticated.

There are loads of sub-genres in metal, and I appreciate few, but there is a lot of complex and (Therefore?) 'sophisticated' metal bands. I don't care though, as I don't claim to be sophisticated myself, at least not using the definition from the dictionary we saw here.

 

[R.I.P.2]

The person who wrote that crap: If you lsiten to In Flames and Godsmack, I can understand why you don't consider Metal to be sophisticated.

I was thinking of pointing that out too but I didn't want to cause a whole new argument.

 

[Prowler121]

I agree witht the original post. iron maiden are my favorite band but I can see that they aren't to be taken as seriously as say a Jon Lennon song...that's part of the appeal.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Anyone who can take Iron Maiden seriously has my (dis)respect.

 

[Black Winter Day]

for the entire argument: who cares???

fuck, it's music, meant to be enjoyed... sadude, your bickering only proves your point

 

[Reign in Acai]

coming to this board is the only thing metal related that embarrasses me

 

[SculptedCold]

coming to this board is the only thing metal related that embarrasses me

Try reading it, there's really not much to be ashamed about. =)


speed and GoD, i'll reply to you guys lata, but i've got to pack and go back to edinburgh soon. Very interesting views though, i'll be happy to continue discussing them at another time.

 

[lord667]

So Guardian, you basically dont believe in Free Will? I mean, your argument scares the hell out of me, if we dont have free will, and we are in essence pre- programmed to live our entire lives based on our genetic patterns and surroundings, then we are ants- and pissed off ants. Where does the will come into play? Why should i even get up in the morning, if my life has been decided for me? Sure genetics predispose one to things- but genetics do not determine how one will live ones life ( unless born with retardation etc.). My parents may be circus acrobats, i may have a genetic predisposition towards flexibility or something, but i still must choose to be a circus acrobat.

Your argument seems to be taking social science, and science to their extremes; a bit communistic etc.

And you know ants do fight each other, bees as well, arent there whole classes of warrior bees etc?

Damn you people are scaring the hell out of me, i know there are people that think this way, but damn, you guys seem kinda of smart, and are willing to sacrifice indivuality and free will, and for what I would like to know?

Fuck man, people with these ideas are scarier than any pentecostal preacher, at least they believe in free will.

There is no such thing as "free" will. Every decision you make is driven by your tastes, preferences and emotions, which are not your product but the product of your background and environment. Let's go to your circus acrobat example. Your parents will give you the genetic make-up to be an acrobat, but your experiences on the road to adulthood will shape your desires, and maybe you'll hear a couple of really ass-kickin' CDs, and they'll make you want to be a guitarist. It was the effect of the CDs shaping your desires that made you want to be a guitarist - it was in no way your "free" decision. The will comes into effect, and ONLY comes into effect, in determining whether and how hard you strive to actually BECOME a guitarist. The question, as Nietzsche asserted, is not one of 'free' or 'unfree' wills, but of 'strong' or 'weak' wills.

So, I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not "willing to sacrifice free will for" anything; I simply don't believe it is, in the way you seem to mean, there to be sacrificed. You may as well ask an atheist why he is willing to sacrifice the love of Almighty Allah.

The reason you should get up in the morning is simple; those pre-programmed desires would not be satisfied if you stayed in bed all day every day.

As for individuality, it's neither here nor there. There's no inherent value in being different. I don't try to fit in unless it's necessary, but I'm not given to wild displays of nonconformity either. I am quite individual, or so I'm told, and it's a byproduct of my not particularly caring whether I am or not.

 

[speed]

Fuck, this is a very very interesting argument. I have read that some psychologists, scientists etc, have postulated there is no free will, and we operate in much the same way as Scuplted Cold, and Lord 667 have stated. Yet, i have yet to see any evidence that they are right.

Yet, if you guys are right, this is worse than the lack of a afterlife, than no god etc. IF i do not have free will, my life is totally pointless. I become much worse than the conscious nihilist i am, i become an programmed ant.

I detect a strong socialistic attitude in both your posts. Are you both socialists, marxists, or just scientifically inclined? WHo else would wish to sacrifice the uniqueness of ones life, than a scientist- or communist to the good of science- or th people?

I am so concerned because I dont think you know how important such a conclusion is. If there is no free will, then man becomes just another animal, with strong social skills. Not having free will sanctifies murder, it sanctifies any state to do what it wants, as morality is no longer a consideration- nor is conscience. Hell it sanctifies any kind of behavior- think about it, one can justify any action with an excuse of their genetics and the environment they were brought up in. A killer, or state( the state is the biggest murderer) can thus justify the death of any citizen, as there life would be meaningless because of their poor genetic makeup and social environment. Hell, the whole questions of genetic engineering becomes pivotal, as we could create a human being to lead a preconcevied programmed life. ANd we all know, the powers that be, already try to program our lives.

Fuck if you guys are right, i would go so far to say, that this truth must be kept from everyone for the good of mankind.

This is one topic, that I will argue forever with you guys on, as i dont know of anything that is more important.

Your just wrong. And if your not, god help us all if these ideas become widespread.

 

[skeptik]

You're blowing it out of proportion. You sound like you're about to commit suicide. There is still free will. What you're missing is that we're guided and influenced by our genes and our environment, however, we're not pawns, per se. If we wanted, we have the free will to go against any instinct we have and do just the opposite, just to spite the entire theory that there is no free will. It really depends on your definition, but I would definitely say that there is free will, in one form or another. And by the way, we ARE just another form of animal.

 

[SADUDE]

Sculpted: I'm not trying to correct others behavior that I find wrong. I reject elightenment, and the concept of absolute truth. At this point im guessing you have realised how much value i assign right/wrong. So I thought I would point out the flaw in your attempt in enlightening me.


"You do realise of course that there's a great many others that share the exact same view as yours,"

OK, I disagree. But if you say so


"Even though semantics may differ, and that although you may not all share some stylistic stereotypes"

Which would in fact contradict the previous quote. Not the exact same views. Please feel free to use your "just semantics" cop out.

"You still are in fact most easily identifiable as a multitude sharing a characteristic."

The above is all that you've said so far, that I've quoted, that retains any sort of value. Of course there are some shared similarities to be found, but identical is a stretch. Great, now I have contradicted myself by enlightening you. I think I may have just found something we have in common. I don't think of it that way. That is just my response to you. I could care realy care less about actually trying to correct yours or anyone's behavior.

I like to encourage thinking a little. I am a little annoyed by the type of people that say grow their hair long just because it is the metal thing to do. That is not thinking. It is a waste of time trying to use appearance as your expression of individuallity anyways.

As I continue posting in this thread I begin to worry if I even know what my point is. I think I know now. I am realising why I do not go out of my way to include or consider myself part of the scene. Metal in it's entirety like everything else is 99% retarded. The fans show it well. Like I said before there are exceptions.

 

[SADUDE]

Care to elaborate this a little bit more?

sure...joke?

 

[SADUDE]

Sadude, complexity doesn't mean to be able to play songs at a great speed, at least not for me. I'd call that technical abilities. When I'm talking about technicallity, I'm thinking of Gorguts' Obscura, which isn't fast most of the time ( just listen to Clouded, it's one of the slowest song ever, there aren't many riffs but the structure is damn great ), or Gorguts' From Wisdom To Hate. The two guitarists on FWtH studied classical music and music composition, they must have some skills I guess.
These are just some examples that technicallity isn't always related to be able to play fast. Anyone can play fast, you just need to practice, but being able to write complex songs is another thing.

And about the social acceptance and the shame of being a metalhead, well, there are always assholes anywere you go, whatever you do. Some metalheads are just trying to look evil, but what I get from metal is much more than grimness, I guess it's more about being different, and somewhat getting some of the everyday pain out. Some metal bands have really great lyrics, they really mean something,they don't all talk about fucking a girl with a knife. And you're talking about sexual frustration... I guess it's better to listen to metal than to rape some girls because you're frustrated !!

I know technicallity isn't the whole spectrum of complexity. That was actually my point. SO I agree with you. Tell me of these metal beans with lyrics that mean something.

 

[SADUDE]

Lord: Solid work. I agree for the msot part.


AnonymousL As for your whole sophisticated side-convo... I think I agree that aesthetically metal will always been unappealing to people. But who cares unless you are one of the preaching types. For the most part I agree with you. I won't touch the part where people are criticizing your choice of words though.

 

[andrew_plamondon]

I know technicallity isn't the whole spectrum of complexity. That was actually my point. SO I agree with you. Tell me of these metal beans with lyrics that mean something.

Strangely, it seems like I enjoy bands which tend to have great lyrics even though it's not one of my criteria to choose to listen to a band.
Atheist's lyrics are somewhat enjoyable, Alchemist has some great lyrics too, the two last Gorguts are great even though some some words are way too used ( bliss and carnal among others ), Kralizec has awesome lyrics too, both in french and english, Blinded By Faith has an album about the Illuminatis, Coprofago's lyrics are about their point of view of mankind.
I could name other bands, I might miss some because my main language isn't english, but these bands should be far enough for now !