2008 Political debate thread

[ABQShredHead]

I think we're all pretty aware that SS is not a favored retirement account.

I see much of those programs listed best handled at the state level rather than the federal.

 

[ABQShredHead]

At least if that's the case, assuming the programs are actually functional, I wouldn't be as perturbed.

Defining "functional" is the big sticker.

 

[Kenneth R.]

certainly is. I wouldn't put 'functional' in the same sentence with 'John McCain' unless I also included the word 'viagra'.

 

[ABQShredHead]

I wouldn't look for fulfilled hopes of anything functional from either, really. After all, they're both senators.

 

[razoredge]

Christ Im just going to go shoot myself.

Ya know SS is all many hard working Americans have/or are going to have for retirement. These are people that did the work and got the jobs done most cringe at because its too hard or too dirty or doesnt pay enough. Cutting SS will only put people out in the streets that did their contribution to society, its got nothing to do with lazy. So many people have everything so screwed up. Continuence is everything, the killing of the unions and other non union company pension plans is what screwed them up as well. There is not the volumn of young employees contributing to the large funds and too many... by comparision... retired drawing from them. It would all be fine if the volumn of young workers stayed high or in reality should have increased because the population increased, but some asswipes decided to start making stuff elsewhere. Before any ignorant comments are made about the Unions please note on the chart that was posted the 50's & 60's, highly Unionized years... the country was in great shape. Union employees paid alot in taxes and lived good. Spent their money because they had it to spend. This was hurting the Exec's because they could only make $500,000 a year instead of 8 million. So a line of bullshit was passed down the pike, through the media and word of mouth that the Unions were killing the country... but there it is... right before your eyes that that was bullshit. The same thing went on with non union company retirement plans as well, they lost contributors and gained retirees. Now you want to do that to SS as well ? Big funds gave big investment power, money that was invested into this country and made more jobs, and we also had a more stable stock market, so those funds produced the volumn of money needed for the nice retirements... but looky who figured out ways to offshore money and fuck that all up too..... Ah the poor rich, worked so "hard" and got "lucky".......... my fucking ass. They sold us down the river and that made them lots of money, END OF STORY... at one time we hung traitors in this country.

I'm glad JD spoke up about the truth with SS. You are a true brother my friend ! And will save me the "bigot" abuse should I happen to say things for what they are. You younger fellas just havent seen enough yet and still swallow the coolaid you were spoon fed by liberal teachers and other media propaganda/word of mouth. Not only have fortunes of it been spent on illegals, its also used to give "legals" a foot up when they get off the airplane... you know before they fuck up our job market because they will work for less... cause they are "Americans" now. "I am an American"... "I am an American"... that fucking commercial made me sick ! America came from sweat, dirt and blood... not a plane ticket.

A good friend of mine, mother in law lost her husband and her husbands SS was gone, she was screwed... you know at one time we had single income familys... oh yeah, that was during those 50's & 60's years too when the country was stable, Unionized and if not still decent paying LONG TERM company jobs & benefits, self suficient and extremely productive... IMAGINE THAT! Moms that stayed home and raised the children, not that that is a problem thats talked about... parenting ?... yarite! So anyhow this woman goes to SS to get help... DENIED... however the office was full of immigrants getting assistance.

WAKE THE FUCK UP !

 

[Kenneth R.]

Yeah that's just it though Steve.

Situation A) We kill SS. Nobody gets any more out of it. Which sucks. But now you don't have to shell out every paycheck for it. Of course they'll think of something else to tax you for instead. It could either be beneficial or another retarded idea.

Situation B) We keep SS. Some people get something out of it. A lot of people get screwed. You still lose a part of your paycheck on a bet that you will get something back. You might win, you will probably lose.

B doesn't sound viable to me.

I propose C) We kill it, and then immediately make a new program to make it optional. Nobody gets anything. Who knows what those government jerks are doing with the money anyway. In the new program, if those lazy immigrants are looking for handouts, they'll have to contribute to the economy and to taxes. Because otherwise they won't get shit. Why? Cause you and me will look at that optional form, and check "no thanks." We can manage our own retirements, thank you. Leave it for the others to sort out, the ones who want it. They can contribute and expect something in the future - you reap what you sow, not you reap what I sow.

 

[razoredge]

So if its killed what are the millions of REAL Americans that need it, contributed to it, and rely on it supposed to do ? Just a human sacrifice for the benefit of who ? The government needs reform, actually those involved need their asses handed to them and then the reform. Why are they just handing it out ? Immigrants need to stay home and fix their country not come here and cost us. Im not and never said they were lazy, they just didnt build this country, they didnt earn this country, they dpnt know the sweat and sacrifice it took to make this what it was and is still supposed to be. Guys like me towed the line our whole lifes and somebody gave it away. We did what we were supposed to do to "live the American dream", we were born into it, spoon fed it, believed in it and then watched the corporations and government make it evaporate. Sure not all of it but so, so much of it. Has anyone stopped to think what things would be like today if it wasnt for the internet/computer/microchip industry of the past 15 years.... there would have been little work for anyone. Well that took off so they got rid of more potential employment. Sorry but nobody was thinking in terms of the entire population and what was coming down the road... well it has arrived and hold on to your ass, we aint seen nothing yet.

I think you said you have a electronics degree or similiar ? 30 years ago you would have had a great job with RCA, GE... so many others. Well they are all either gone or a fraction of what they were. We stopped being players and became sellers of our assets. Now our back is against the wall, all these mistakes are begining to compound and those that made them walked away rich and clean. All we have to do is STOP

 

[J-Dubya 777]

The problem is even if they continue to take from our paychecks, there's not enough to go around cause the government wastes the money. So best of luck to you and no hope at all for me. If anything, SS should be OPTIONAL. Abolished would be better yet.

So long as I don't get screwed out of my share (whatever horrible percentage that is), kill it, but I'm not about to give up 30 years of paying into the system.

HELL YES, JDub! You go!

And I don't see it as your "handout" - it's money you put into the system to begin with, and myriad others who put nothing into the system are stealing that money.

You have no idea how many murder scenarios played through my head during that couple of months where there was NO income, NO money, & no assistance. I was NOT a nice person during the period...It still stings, even today.

How can you fault someone trying to survive? Well, I don't. Instead, I fault the U.S. government who turns 2 blind eyes to the problem of border control. Illegal immigrants are borderline encouraged to come here by our government. How else do you explain the blatant lack of attention to the issue? U.S. border control is joke.

I agree here, but when you're going into hock more to get a bag of ricecakes and a bag of generic tater tots, and you see the people in line walking out with a cart of food that MY hard work paid for, it literally burns a hole right through your soul.

Once again, see my post about getting many on one bus and trying to drive that bus in one direction.

And I'm quite close to the problem myself. I like the idea of our militia patroling the borders, myself. Won't cost the government a dime.

And really, though your argument is deflective, it pretty much supports exactly what JDub is saying. And if our own Social Security system cannot support the "needs" of our society, what program do you propose to do so? More taxes into social programs that continue paying to those who add nothing to the program?

Or, can we get a program better suited to getting people out of laziness and adding value to our society (again, I'm fully aware there are people who really need help and cannot help themselves)? "We'll give you x foodstamps for y amount of work" with work defined as furthering one's education, labor, etc. Sitting in front of the TV and smoking pack after pack of cigarettes does not warrant a payment in foodstamps.

God Bless the men & woman who officially, or unofficially patrol our borders.
Time will come where things will get more militant...I swear, I'd poison the oasis' set up by liberals in the desert for our uninvited guests. Ask me about land mine bingo sometime

Exactly the problem with it. I'm basically being forced to give away money with every paycheck.

Yep, and like you mentioned earlier, I'll be lucky to see much out of SS, and every generation behind mine will see less & less. I'm all for self investing of the funds, but if you opt out, you need to be credited fairly for what you've already put in, whether it be 5 years or 35 years.

Precisely! Programs that target disadvantaged youth, the disabled, the mentally ill, etc. Or, is that a waste of money since they add nothing to the program.

We can debate SS forever, but the reality is that it's just one program. And frankly, those who plan on relying on SS to retire on are in for a rude awakening.

I don't think anyone with half a brain is planning on being able to live off it, but even well intentioned people (like me) had to cash in 401ks in bits & pieces to live, & stay alive. I literally exhausted EVERY avenue, short of selling my house for a loss, to keep up, before having to declare bankruptcy.
While it helped, it also hindered as I have another 3 years of that still on financial record. Something I NEVER wanted to do, but had no choice to save what little I had left (basically, my house, and my truck)

I think we're all pretty aware that SS is not a favored retirement account.

I see much of those programs listed best handled at the state level rather than the federal.

Obviously, It's not a government money tree.... I think it's best handled at a personal level. Then NOBODY has anything to bitch about....

.

I'm glad JD spoke up about the truth with SS. You are a true brother my friend ! And will save me the "bigot" abuse should I happen to say things for what they are. You younger fellas just havent seen enough yet and still swallow the coolaid you were spoon fed by liberal teachers and other media propaganda/word of mouth. Not only have fortunes of it been spent on illegals, its also used to give "legals" a foot up when they get off the airplane... you know before they fuck up our job market because they will work for less... cause they are "Americans" now. "I am an American"... "I am an American"... that fucking commercial made me sick ! America came from sweat, dirt and blood... not a plane ticket.

A good friend of mine, mother in law lost her husband and her husbands SS was gone, she was screwed... you know at one time we had single income familys... oh yeah, that was during those 50's & 60's years too when the country was stable, Unionized and if not still decent paying LONG TERM company jobs & benefits, self suficient and extremely productive... IMAGINE THAT! Moms that stayed home and raised the children, not that that is a problem thats talked about... parenting ?... yarite! So anyhow this woman goes to SS to get help... DENIED... however the office was full of immigrants getting assistance.

WAKE THE FUCK UP !

Thanks One thing I can be counted on for, is telling it like it is.
I'm not a bigot, I'm an American who's grandparents & great grandparents came here from other countries and LEGALLY became citizens of the US. My mom's mother came here from Poland and washed the steps at Union Station in Chicago while she was taking "classes" to learn English. She was MOTIVATED to work, keep a job, learn the language, and was PROUD to become a citizen the way she did. She earned it, and she earned every right to live the American dream. My dad's side of the family has been in this country since the 1680s. I think our generation will be the LAST who's folks were able to get by on one full time income. Today, unless someone is REALLY well off, it's not going to happen anymore. I also think that is because of not only economic issues, but social issues as well. How many young people today would be content being "housewives" (or "househusband") for a husband (or wife) who's making middle to lower middle class wages? How many family units have broken up, or are nearly nonexistant because everybody wants to wear the pants, and have their careers? The family unit is "fukt".

I think you said you have a electronics degree or similiar ? 30 years ago you would have had a great job with RCA, GE... so many others. Well they are all either gone or a fraction of what they were. We stopped being players and became sellers of our assets. Now our back is against the wall, all these mistakes are begining to compound and those that made them walked away rich and clean. All we have to do is STOP

Unions: My dad has been an IBEW union electrician since returning home from WWII. I have to say, he's living quite a nice life in retirement. You'll never hear be blindly bashing unions. I saw what happened to the company I worked for as it de-unionized.
Straight into the crapper!

 

[Meedleyx10]

I propose C) We kill it, and then immediately make a new program to make it optional. Nobody gets anything. Who knows what those government jerks are doing with the money anyway. In the new program, if those lazy immigrants are looking for handouts, they'll have to contribute to the economy and to taxes. Because otherwise they won't get shit. Why? Cause you and me will look at that optional form, and check "no thanks." We can manage our own retirements, thank you. Leave it for the others to sort out, the ones who want it. They can contribute and expect something in the future - you reap what you sow, not you reap what I sow.

I'm a little late, but +1.

 

[Meedleyx10]

So long as I don't get screwed out of my share (whatever horrible percentage that is), kill it, but I'm not about to give up 30 years of paying into the system.



You have no idea how many murder scenarios played through my head during that couple of months where there was NO income, NO money, & no assistance. I was NOT a nice person during the period...It still stings, even today.



I agree here, but when you're going into hock more to get a bag of ricecakes and a bag of generic tater tots, and you see the people in line walking out with a cart of food that MY hard work paid for, it literally burns a hole right through your soul.



God Bless the men & woman who officially, or unofficially patrol our borders.
Time will come where things will get more militant...I swear, I'd poison the oasis' set up by liberals in the desert for our uninvited guests. Ask me about land mine bingo sometime



Yep, and like you mentioned earlier, I'll be lucky to see much out of SS, and every generation behind mine will see less & less. I'm all for self investing of the funds, but if you opt out, you need to be credited fairly for what you've already put in, whether it be 5 years or 35 years.




I don't think anyone with half a brain is planning on being able to live off it, but even well intentioned people (like me) had to cash in 401ks in bits & pieces to live, & stay alive. I literally exhausted EVERY avenue, short of selling my house for a loss, to keep up, before having to declare bankruptcy.
While it helped, it also hindered as I have another 3 years of that still on financial record. Something I NEVER wanted to do, but had no choice to save what little I had left (basically, my house, and my truck)



Obviously, It's not a government money tree.... I think it's best handled at a personal level. Then NOBODY has anything to bitch about....



Thanks One thing I can be counted on for, is telling it like it is.
I'm not a bigot, I'm an American who's grandparents & great grandparents came here from other countries and LEGALLY became citizens of the US. My mom's mother came here from Poland and washed the steps at Union Station in Chicago while she was taking "classes" to learn English. She was MOTIVATED to work, keep a job, learn the language, and was PROUD to become a citizen the way she did. She earned it, and she earned every right to live the American dream. My dad's side of the family has been in this country since the 1680s. I think our generation will be the LAST who's folks were able to get by on one full time income. Today, unless someone is REALLY well off, it's not going to happen anymore. I also think that is because of not only economic issues, but social issues as well. How many young people today would be content being "housewives" (or "househusband") for a husband (or wife) who's making middle to lower middle class wages? How many family units have broken up, or are nearly nonexistant because everybody wants to wear the pants, and have their careers? The family unit is "fukt".



Unions: My dad has been an IBEW union electrician since returning home from WWII. I have to say, he's living quite a nice life in retirement. You'll never hear be blindly bashing unions. I saw what happened to the company I worked for as it de-unionized.
Straight into the crapper!

+ a whole shit ton. Win, win, and win....and more win.......

 

[Kenneth R.]

good luck getting anything but a laughing official when you ask for your social security money.

 

[fullnelson]

Social security is a problem that cannot be dealt with rationally. The Social Security Administration is one of the most efficient and well-rated agencies in our government. Its central task is easy to define, it has a strong organizational culture, and its target constituency is happy getting checks every month. The nature of Congressmen (reelection) won't permit dropping the program because it would alienate elderly voters. The program will run into the ground before it's changed.

 

[razoredge]

Thing is all they have to do is stop handing it out to those that dont contribute... HOW FUCKING HARD IS THAT ! Do we need a college degree to figure that out ?

http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com:80/?p=6587

 

[razoredge]

Unions: My dad has been an IBEW union electrician since returning home from WWII. I have to say, he's living quite a nice life in retirement. You'll never hear be blindly bashing unions. I saw what happened to the company I worked for as it de-unionized.
Straight into the crapper!

And so could millions of other American had we kept the country and our occupations to ourselves. Then this younger generation would not be bitching about us baby boomers and the SS deductions because it all would be a non issue.

My mom's mother came here from Poland and washed the steps at Union Station in Chicago while she was taking "classes" to learn English. She was MOTIVATED to work, keep a job, learn the language, and was PROUD to become a citizen the way she did. She earned it, and she earned every right to live the American dream.

Exacty, those immigrants helped build this country, they didnt come here on a airliner after all the concrete and brick was laid for a sweet walk in the park by stealing American jobs. They fought and died in the great wars, worked factories during the great wars, fought for our labor rights not against them, labored on the dams, highways, bridges, skyscrapers, cleared and turned the soil. Both sides of my family has been here since the early 1800's, getting the work done as the country flourished... we're really flourishing today... ey ? These are different times and the tub has runneth over.

 

[J-Dubya 777]

And so could millions of other American had we kept the country and our occupations to ourselves. Then this younger generation would not be bitching about us baby boomers and the SS deductions because it all would be a non issue.

Yep, from my own experience, I agree 110%!

Exacty, those immigrants helped build this country, they didnt come here on a airliner after all the concrete and brick was laid for a sweet walk in the park by stealing American jobs. They fought and died in the great wars, worked factories during the great wars, fought for our labor rights not against them, labored on the dams, highways, bridges, skyscrapers, cleared and turned the soil. Both sides of my family has been here since the early 1800's, getting the work done as the country flourished... we're really flourishing today... ey ? These are different times and the tub has runneth over.

...and has left one hell of a stubborn ring...

 

[ABQShredHead]

Thing is all they have to do is stop handing it out to those that dont contribute... HOW FUCKING HARD IS THAT ! Do we need a college degree to figure that out ?

http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com:80/?p=6587

Thanks, Jimmy Carter!

 

[razoredge]

Thanks, Jimmy Carter!

not sure why you said that though, as in I dont get it, bad ? good? stupid ? or did I do an exact quote or something ?

 

[Kenneth R.]

The thing with ongoing programs like Social Security, is they're like a highway that needs repaving. If you close the road, people will be pissed. But if you leave it as it is cause people demand to use it, eventually no one will be able to use it. The compromise? Take part (or all) of it down temporarily to fix it, endure the bitching, and open it again to satisfied consumers.

Social Security, if not fixed or done away with, will continue to rot like an infected wound. Nobody wants to take a hit for the team but if nobody budges, we are all going to take the hit, and that is one bong I do not want to smoke.

 

[razoredge]

The gov will only get the money someplace else to squander on non contributers. The only people that loose will be the working poor such as myself that have 33 years of contributions and will have nothing else should I go beyond 65. Would be far better and easier to just stop handing it out. I cant belief they started in the first place.

Bastille Day

Until we try and execute some senators, congressmen, presidents, judges and other government officials for treason nothing will ever change

 

[Phanto]

Until we try and execute some senators, congressmen, presidents, judges and other government officials for treason nothing will ever change

Careful, the FBI might be reading this.