About Progressive music...

PoS is too pretentious, Daniels attitude sucks, their music isn't nearly good enough for the praise they get and the compositions are decent at their best. My hatred for them is more a reaction towards everyone who loves them, but that doesn't mean that i would ever enjoy them. They are a terrible band. To me, they are exactly what is wrong with prog.
 
_Gentleman of_the Snow_ said:
]The thing about metal is that it is a sub-genre on its own.
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:lol: It's true, that always cracks me up...how "heavy" or "heavy metal" is actually used as a subgenre of metal to describe more traditional, basic metal (ala Maiden, Priest, etc).

As for the prog argument, I agree with Ken and Jeff's "prog" vs "progressive" semantic argument, it makes sense. However, practically speaking, prog is simply used to define a band that differs from "traditional" rock/metal by using certain elements (time changes, instrumental breaks, keyboards, and any other unconventional instruments & sounds). Whether or not a prog band is truly progressive is debatable, but they fall within the genre anyway.

Another thing is that some people have a low threshold for what they consider prog. For example, just because a band uses keys, they might call it progressive, and maybe it is compared to what they usually listen to.

I also agree with Zach's mentality (I think it's his anway :p), that originality is overrated...I don't expect bands to reinvent the wheel every time they release an album...as long as they do what they do well, that's all I ask.
 
Iced Dog said:
I also agree with Zach's mentality (I think it's his anway :p), that originality is overrated...I don't expect bands to reinvent the wheel every time they release an album...as long as they do what they do well, that's all I ask.
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True that! And i must admit, the more i listen to the new Gamma Ray the less i despise it. Not as good or catchy as Powerplant or No world order, but still good in its own right.
 
prog is just short for progressive, nothing more, nothing less, what are we going to spin that off into two seperate genres now too ? Then when some damn fool that doesnt know about it abbreviates progressive by saying or typing prog is speaking in some foreign tongue their unaware of ?

I have a better idea, lets go 180* the other way, lets just lump it all together and call it all classic rock............

WTF !

key word, progressive, not to hard to figure out
 
You miss the point. The point is that there's the adjective "progressive" which means to progress, try new things, etc. and there is the GENRE which is "prog" and it's stale and all the same, which is the whole point of this discussion. Progressive and the genre of "prog" are basically polar opposites now.

So to answer your question, yes. For all intents and purposes, they're two completely different things and ideas.
 
well there is no genre which is simply called "prog", I wont restate the obvious. There are genres such as progressive rock, progressive metal. If some people are upset about the possible misuse of the term progressive by appling it to music when the exact defination of the term can not be fulfilled to their expectations, they are at least 30 years too late for the cryin. How fast does everyone want music to "progress" anyhow. I mean what is expected, do we want a bunch of sci fi sound effects... music of the future? Go watch some cheezy sci fi movie and dance freely in truely "progressive" ecstasy.

In the mean time stay off the back of the musicians that put more intellegent & worthy effort into one phrase of music than the pages contained in this topic. If people dont like progressive metal or rock they can give some punk rock a try, maybe after a few weeks of that they can come to terms with the viability of the terms chosen along time ago.

theres only 12 friggin notes and so many rhythmn textures before music becomes an incoherent mess.
 
Zach... do you really think there is a genre out there that isn't stale and all the same? you just have to weed out the ones that differ from that norm. you have to find which ones appeal to you.

you can't criticize the genre "prog-metal" if you aren't gong to put it on an even plating field with the rest of the genres. at least prog takes mountains of musical knowledge to write and perform. it's one of the few genres that demands immense talent.

if you want nothing to sound similar, you should pic one artist from each genre and JUST listen to them!

most people enjoy a specific kind of music. for something to coordinate with that kind of music it would have to have similarties to other music in that genre.

i like prog metal, i like power metal, i like classical music, i like folk music, i like indian ragas, i like iranian dastgah, i like jazz sometimes. those are what i am into. they are all different but all the bands that fall into each category are similar.
 
razoredge said:
well there is no genre which is simply called "prog", I wont restate the obvious. There are genres such as progressive rock, progressive metal. If some people are upset about the possible misuse of the term progressive by appling it to music when the exact defination of the term can not be fulfilled to their expectations, they are at least 30 years too late for the cryin. How fast does everyone want music to "progress" anyhow. I mean what is expected, do we want a bunch of sci fi sound effects... music of the future? Go watch some cheezy sci fi movie and dance freely in truely "progressive" ecstasy.

In the mean time stay off the back of the musicians that put more intellegent & worthy effort into one phrase of music than the pages contained in this topic. If people dont like progressive metal or rock they can give some punk rock a try, maybe after a few weeks of that they can come to terms with the viability of the terms chosen along time ago.

theres only 12 friggin notes and so many rhythmn textures before music becomes an incoherent mess.
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You're still missing the point. The form of the word (prog or progressive) isn't the issue. There is music that is progressive (adjective), in that it is breaking new ground, using innovative ideas, etc. This can happen in any style/genre. Then, there is the genre(s) that have the term progressive in the name (prog rock, prog metal, progressive jazz, etc.). At least in Rock and Metal, the term "progressive", when used as a label, doesn't always mean the music is fitting of the definition "progressive", but rather it has qualities (virtuostic playing, odd times, etc. etc.) that aren't exactly new and innovating. For example, when Images & Words came out it was progressive (Ken, stay out of this:heh:). There were new sounds and they were stretching the bounds of what was "normal" in hard rock/metal at the time. When new prog bands like Circus Maximus come out, they aren't doing anything that's progressive, but they do have qualities such as odd times, intricate songs, etc. and are given the label of "progressive" because of it. When bands such as King Crimson, Yes, and the rest of the early prog bands hit the scene, the term progressive (in it's literal use) was fitting and that's when it caught on, so there wouldn't have been any reason to bitch about it way back then. Today, the term is used for bands that don't fit the textbook definition of the word "progressive" and that's where the confusion/bitching comes from.
 
razoredge, you are right according to common linguistics, but in this case, it doesn't necessarily work. And I already said why also. Because of the fact that there is no genre called "Progressive", and because there is no real genre for technicality and instrumentalism, the two were conjoined by really stupid people when Dream Theater were called Progressive Metal. Every single one of Dream Theater's albums sound completely different, but every single one is technical. So therefore, the stupid people thought that they were called Progressive because of the fact that their albums all had the common factor of technicality, rather than for the changing styles and sounds. Think about it.

Dream And Day is like Rush on crack.
Images and Words is like Dream And Day on Ecstasy and Pot.
Everything from Awake to Six Degrees is all too varied and unalike to really group together
Train of Thought is like Nu Metal, but if Nu Metal was actually as talented as they thought they were
Octavarium and Systematic Chaos are, for the most part, heavier, but still very experimental.

Honestly, if I could go back in time and change history, I'd just call them Technical Experimental Heavy. Because those are all adjectives. Not labels. If I were to use labels, I'd be a hypocrite. I almost fell into a trap there, but I saved myself.



EDIT: Meedley, we definitely just had a moment where our brains were just on the exact same page for a second.
 
darkblade said:
Zach... do you really think there is a genre out there that isn't stale and all the same? you just have to weed out the ones that differ from that norm. you have to find which ones appeal to you.

you can't criticize the genre "prog-metal" if you aren't gong to put it on an even plating field with the rest of the genres.
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Right:kickass: (to your first paragraph). Take away the term "progressive" (which isn't being used in literal sense anyway) and it's a genre in the same way anything else is a genre.

darkblade said:
at least prog takes mountains of musical knowledge to write and perform. it's one of the few genres that demands immense talent.
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This is debateable and irrelevant
 
Im not missing the point, I understand all that and I didnt even read the back 2 pages. I am also aware of how easier it was for the early bands to have less influenced individuality, but I can understand and accept this, so to me it seems others are missing the point... which is the huge melting pot of multiple influences in todays progressive music. I could go on and on through the history with positive and negitive examples of this and that and the many reasons that brought us to todays issues... but without writing one of my typical, hard to follow, boring essays, I will just say once again "how fast does everyone want music to progress" ? furthermore what are we or the industry supposed to do, cull bands like Circus Maximus due to their blantenly obvious influences... or just enjoy the chance to hear another new recording with a bit of its own character ?

To me the answer sure as hell is not to rewrite the definations of the genres. We all know what the elements of progressive music are and whether a band uses some or many of them, and it will evolve in its own time.

If my memory serves me correctly at one time it was either... only or also called "art rock", with that maybe some can see why the word progressive won out.
 
razoredge said:
furthermore what are we or the industry supposed to do, cull bands like Circus Maximus due to their blantenly obvious influences... or just enjoy the chance to hear another new recording with a bit of its own character ?
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Nobody said or implied that, just because it isn't progressive doesn't mean it isn't good.
 
You know what? How about this? If you're so pissed off with the fact that other bands all sound the same, why don't you go off and write your own music then to stand out amongst the other genres in the industry? That's actually what I've been doing, and it makes me feel better not only about myself, but I also find myself not caring about shit like this.
 
I was there and there was no doubt in my mind that Dream Theater was the very defination of progressive heavy metal, it wasnt stupid, it was unavoidable heavy prog in the face.

Prog has also never had to include musical or virtousos technicality, Pink Floyd was progressive and they were a far cry from how Kansas applied their touch. The Fusion bands were very progressive in thier time but nothing like ELP, fortunantly for them they had their own genre and avoid all this BS. I also think too many people think it has to have something to do with long solo sections, it doesnt, if it did all the old live jam bands would be progressive.

Porcupine Tree is a far cry from DT in the instrumental virtuoso department (excluding the drummer) but extremely progressive non the less.

I just love progressive music and always have, even more straight forward stuff that shows elements here and there, be it a little extra transition part in the middle or whatever, its just something I will always appreaciate. The bands that dont have enough of their own personal element or an approach that doesnt strike me will most likely never get much of my ear time. Its just not worth sweating.

I'd rather change the world than progressive metal.............. lol
 
razoredge said:
Prog has also never had to include musical or virtousos technicality,
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Exactly, but a lot of bands are given the label of "progressive" based only on those (and similar) qualities, which is where one of the many issues of "progressive" the genre versus "progressive" the adjective comes up.
 
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