Arguing about music

[R.I.P.2]

There is no proper way to analyse art. And people who have had a musical education could analyse it better than you, since they're analysing the music rather than studying the black line in the bottom left hand corner of the cover art, which represents Satan's frustration at the the Christians, who are the white line in the top right hand corner.

 

[R.I.P.2]

BM is the closest we have in modern day to ancient classical music, in terms of spirit and composition.

Hehe, I missed this. Could you please explain how black metal and ancient classical music (Gregorian chants? Renaissance?) are compositionally similar? The nearest thing I would compare black metal to in terms of classical music would be minimalist music, which is very much a modern style.

 

[R.I.P.2]

Or you could ignore my last post and read sadude's .

 

[Transilvanian Scotsman]

... And this is why i hated the Art based subjects at school. English, Social Sciences, Art ... whatever, they over analyzed everything to the point of no fun.
One made up example would be:
"The white flag rippled in the wind."
The English department might have then asked : What is the symbological use of the white flag here? Commenting on word choice and sentence structure, what does the author wish to convey to the audience?

So many times i feel like saying, "The flag is white. Who cares."

Too much subjective crap for my liking. Maybe the reason I preferred the science courses at school... and now at university too. Studying English is just stupid (dont take that too seriously i just didnt enjoy it). *looks to ScultedCold* Only a fool would choose to study that. *smirk*

As for music, if it sounds crap; no point listening to it. But, if the music is good even if the artwork on the cover is crap, then i would listen to it. Cheap thrills are more pleasing than over analyzing my music in hopes to get a hard on.

Arguably.... those who put more thought into the music's ideology/artwork are more likely to produce better music? It's pretty much based on the idea of not rushing production on an album to just get sales. So i respect those that put a lot of work into their music, but I dont wish to consider everything that they have done in order for me to enjoy their album. I would be pondering all day.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Sorry, my use of the word 'ancient' might've thrown you, I withdraw it. I'm talking about eras such as the Romantic era. Obviously, BM uses modern, minimalist harmony, but it is written based on classical theory. This is why it is called 'neo-classical' music.

 

[R.I.P.2]

It isn't based on classical theory, though. Honestly, I don't think I could find two more different types of music than Darkthrone and, say, Rachmaninov.

 

[speed]

Ha, the reason you dislike the humanities and the arts Scotsman; subjectivity, is exactly the reason I love the arts and humanities- there is no one "right" answer.

 

[Transilvanian Scotsman]

Ha, the reason you dislike the humanities and the arts Scotsman; subjectivity, is exactly the reason I love the arts and humanities- there is no one "right" answer.

Yea... I wouldnt bother me as much, If the teachers thought 'my' answer was right. More often than not the 'right' answer was not what i had written.

Not that science is without some subjectiveness, like i could say photons are not 'true' particles and other physicists would/might dig what i'm saying. Tho I dont think photons are minimalistic, corpse paint wearing, anti-christians....

I argue with my apartment mate about music, but often we have to agree to disagree

 

[speed]

That is a damn good point, how can teachers give one a bad grade on a subjective subject?

 

[R.I.P.2]

On how good the justification of it is, I assume.

 

[speed]

A good teacher would follow that pattern INT, but most teachers seem to base grades on how much one agrees with the teachers own thoughts and justifications.

 

[SADUDE]

Again Guardian, you may have corrected yourself but still you left the door open with another big claim with no support. How am I supposed to overlook your age with these fallacious ad hominem responses? Many "stupid" people obtain wisdom over time. They learn what and when they shouldn't run their mouths. Your only hope left is planetary eulogy coming to save your ass. He might be able to offer a very abstract comparison that will at least make him look like he knows what he is talking about.
Some metal artists may make more sense than ones from other genres to compare classical music to, but it is stiill kind of rediculous. But since you have failed at my appeasing my request on few occations, I will try to make the most sense of it.
I guess sociologically would show the majority of this argument. Outside of that... I guess you can say that a few metal artists follow a wider variety of song structures than other music. They are not near the density of classical(ie motivic development and variation). I am done... this is not my claim to defend.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Argh. I didn't mean every great metal band has to be very much alike to a classical composer, I just meant that (great) metal and classical are seperate from the rest, in that the central melody determines the structure, the structure makes the song and this becomes the language for expression of emotions and ideas. Tone and phrasing are manipulated and combined to make modal music in the same way as classical pieces (Baroque and Romantic are the most similar).

 

[no country for old wainds]

They are not near the density of classical(ie motivic development and variation).

Surely you aren't claiming that minimalist music (i.e. BM) doesn't involve motivic development and variation?

 

[R.I.P.2]

Surely you aren't claiming that minimalist music (i.e. BM) doesn't involve motivic development and variation?

It doesn't take a melody or theme and develop it throughout the piece, at least not on nearly the same scale. BM uses repetition to create an atmosphere.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Yeah, but I was under the impression he was saying that BM had no variation or motific development what-so-ever, which is untrue. Sorry if that wasn't the case.

 

[SADUDE]

Classical music is the most dense and saturated music available. Black metal in its widely excepted form (among the "experts") is considered minimalistic. Other end of the field buddy. Yes it is true bands like burzum do gradually develop ideas through a piece in a way very different than the other music we are discussing.

 

[polarity]

GoD: I agree with you for the mot part, but I have one problem with your argument.

You seem to think that those who are capable of appreciating good art will necessarily enjoy that art. However, I believe enjoyment of music comes from the aesthetic level (although I do like my music to have artistic relevance), even if one is capable of appreciating the artistic content also. Why do you assume that appreciation of artistic content leads to enjoyment of the aesthetic?

(Of course, you could argue that those who are more intelligent will be more likely to appreciate the artistic content and enjoy a more innovative aesthetic, but that wouldn't be a direct correlation )

 

[no country for old wainds]

I probably did go a little overboard in that respect, I generally agree with you.