Black Metal.

[skeptik]

You're all lucky Vic doesn't post here if you think I'm bad. According to him, there is no such thing as a Christian Metal band.

 

[Mort Divine]

Anyone who thinks that is pretty much a tool - as the genre was built by Christians.

 

[Alter]

You believe people are going to hell and you don't try to help them? How do you sleep at night?


More on observation on the entertainment created by individuals such as yourself.

Dont put words in my mouth. I believe hell is something that we dont understand.

 

[Life Sucks]

CHRIST LOVING BLACK METAL WOOT!!!!!

 

[Thoth-Amon]

You're all lucky Vic doesn't post here if you think I'm bad. According to him, there is no such thing as a Christian Metal band.

I know!! He wouldn't stop arguing about that.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I'm afraid you're still wrong about it being a coincidence. The artists chose that style of music because they felt that it properly evoked the same emotions given off by their lyrics and the atmosphere that they meant to convey. The fact that the music can possibly correspond to other things doesn't make it a coincidence. What it does do, however, is heighten the importance of lyrics in order to classify a piece of music, since the music itself can reflect so many different things.

It's certainly not a coincidence based on the motives of the black metal originators. I'm not denying the fact that they used their ideologies to help establish the basic sound of black metal. However, it doesn't make sense to say that other forms of "dark" lyrics couldn't just as easily have influenced other bands to make this kind of music. It is purely a coincidence that the "commonly accepted black metal ideologies" were applied to this kind of music first. The fact that it's a coincidence has nothing to do with whether or not the bands intended to sound the way they do.

From a surface, aesthetics standpoint, Black Metal is "first and foremost" a music genre, but in reality, it is absolutely impossible to unentangle it from the ideology. The ideology is at least as important as the music itself in determining what is Black Metal from a conceptual standpoint. To take such a surface understanding of the genre is insulting to the intellectual integrity found in certain regions of the genre, though there will always be the tryhards and also ran cult kiddies worshiping Satan. Finally, it is illogical to say that a band can't not be Black Metal despite having the same musical characteristics. Black Metal is NOT merely a style of playing certain instruments.

Since black metal IS a music genre, wouldn't the importance of the musical standpoint vastly outweigh the importance of the conceptual standpoint? The intellectual integrity used in black metal is there to enhance the music, not dictate what it is. The feelings evoked from the music itself is what sets off listeners, first and foremost. You have to remember that what we're dealing with is music, not literature.

I already addressed this. Did you not read my prior post? Just because you think a Christian band is Black Metal before you have the full picture of what the band is doing does not mean that it is Black Metal. That's like looking at a painting like the one used by Acid Bath on their second album and saying it's a pair of rabbits playing with a puppet, while completely disregarding the meaning and symbolism behind the actual work. Once again, you're reaching only toward the lowest common denominator, and art works on the highest. It's fantastic that you think most people would classify the given band as Black Metal, but, just as before you posted, it STILL doesn't make the band Black Metal.

A painting is a whole different ordeal altogether. The point of a painting is to show symbolism through a visual aspect. Black metal, being a music genre, expresses it's artistic merits mainly through the music.

Why do you think that Black Metal is defined by "the first thing that comes to mind?" Just because something SEEMS a certain way to you does not mean that it is a certain way, and I'm not sure why you seem to be denying this. Music is not just music when evaluated on an academic or artistic level. Music is so much more than "just music." You're not getting the full experience if that is how you approach your listening habits. Black Metal is not merely the feeling given off by the music. Black Metal is not the only form of music that conveys the feelings of loss, bitterness, anger, desperation, longing, desolation, hatred, sorrow, etc.

Once again, what we're dealing with here is music. What it sounds like is the basis for what it is. It would be different if what we were dealing with was paintings or literature because these things are viewed from a visual aspect and the symbolism cannot necessarily be determined through first impression. I'm not denying the fact that I get the feeling of vikings, pagans, anger, desperation, etc. from black metal. I just don't believe that the music is restricted to these topics. As I addressed before, your obviously not going to find a serious band with "happy go-lucky" lyrics in black metal, Christian or not. I think some of the common topics of black metal can easily be applied to Christianity anyway (not counting pagans and vikings of course).

 

[Alter]

Black Metal has come a very long way since Venom though, even I can admit that and I'll worship and defend Venom to the grave. I think all you have to do is look as Falco's review for Hvis Lyset Tar Oss for where the academic perspective can come into play in Black Metal. Whether you like the guy or not.

Varg recorded his vocals in a headset...how academic is that?

 

[thisisaformicatable]

In other words, the influence of newer black metal doesn't come from the ideologies that influenced the second wave of black metal but rather the music itself that the second wave created.

And yet, virtually all current black metal shares similar ideological themes to the original bands. If anything, I'd say that the musical diversity found in black metal is far greater than the thematic diversity.

It's certainly not a coincidence based on the motives of the black metal originators. I'm not denying the fact that they used their ideologies to help establish the basic sound of black metal. However, it doesn't make sense to say that other forms of "dark" lyrics couldn't just as easily have influenced other bands to make this kind of music. It is purely a coincidence that the "commonly accepted black metal ideologies" were applied to this kind of music first. The fact that it's a coincidence has nothing to do with whether or not the bands intended to sound the way they do.

You keep saying 'coincidence'; each time it becomes more ridiculous. Your point seems to be that black metal could theoretically have come into existence without being tightly integrated with the ideas that spawned it - a wonderfully unprovable assertion. So what? Black metal *was* created solely to express these ideas. Why does what could have been matter? Doesn't your reasoning lead to everything being a coincidence and render concepts like black metal, NSBM, gangster rap, anarcho-punk, outlaw country, etc. nearly useless? Why argue for a broader, less descriptive definition of black metal that fails to accurately address the reality of the genre?

You have to remember that what we're dealing with is music, not literature.

We are dealing with music, but most often in the case of metal words are a part of the music. Placing importance on one aspect of the art over the importance of the whole is an arbitrary action that leads to discussions like this. Don't assume that your favourite or the most popular part of the music is the most important, look at the whole.

I just don't believe that the music is restricted to these topics.

Is someone arguing that it is?
...

Dont put words in my mouth. I believe hell is something that we dont understand.

I didn't.

...i belive that you go to hell if you dont belive in god.

+

...i dont try to convert people.

=

You believe people are going to hell and you don't try to help them? How do you sleep at night?

 

[Zephyrus]

Dont put words in my mouth. I believe hell is something that we dont understand.

Go read Dante's Inferno and that is basically the most likely possible explanation of hell. If hell exists, the nature of sinners' punishments is relative to the nature of their sins. If the Inferno is fact, the majority of you will be burning alive in open tombs, because you, as heretics, believe that the soul dies with the body at death.

Sorry if that went a little off-topic, but that book really impressed me.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

And yet, virtually all current black metal shares similar ideological themes to the original bands. If anything, I'd say that the musical diversity found in black metal is far greater than the thematic diversity.

Once again, can you tell me with complete certainty that every single black metal band shares the same ideologies?

You keep saying 'coincidence'; each time it becomes more ridiculous. Your point seems to be that black metal could theoretically have come into existence without being tightly integrated with the ideas that spawned it - a wonderfully unprovable assertion. So what? Black metal *was* created solely to express these ideas. Why does what could have been matter? Doesn't your reasoning lead to everything being a coincidence and render concepts like black metal, NSBM, gangster rap, anarcho-punk, outlaw country, etc. nearly useless? Why argue for a broader, less descriptive definition of black metal that fails to accurately address the reality of the genre?

These are sub-sub genres that pertain to lyrical themes so obviously they are going to apply to the lyrics, not music. The term black metal used generally, however, shouldn't have a consistent lyrical theme because it is a less specific genre label.

We are dealing with music, but most often in the case of metal words are a part of the music. Placing importance on one aspect of the art over the importance of the whole is an arbitrary action that leads to discussions like this. Don't assume that your favourite or the most popular part of the music is the most important, look at the whole.

Lyrics are important but not when classifying a genre. The characteristics that make a genre most known for are represented through the music.

Is someone arguing that it is?
...

You guys are arguing that black metal can't possibly have a "dark" Christian theme and still be black metal despite having all of the musical characteristics.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Once again, can you tell me with complete certainty that every single black metal shares the same ideologies?

Well, since the definition I use requires the presence of, or at least the absence of contradictions to, certain thematic content, yes I can.

These are sub-sub genres that pertain to lyrical themes so obviously they are going to apply to the lyrics, not music. The term black metal used generally, however, shouldn't have a consistent lyrical theme because it is a less specific genre label.

Anarcho-punk, at least, has certain sounds that are identified with it, but I digress. How about addressing the remainder of my point?

Lyrics are important but not when classifying a genre. The characteristics that make a genre most known for are represented through the music.

Different genres are characterized by different things, you can't use one genre as a basis for how another "should" be defined. Look at each case separately based on its unique history.

You guys are arguing that black metal can't possibly have a "dark" Christian theme and still be black metal despite having all of the musical characteristics.

Which is by no means saying that "the music is restricted to these topics" - nothing is preventing Christians taking black metal aesthetics and creating fantastic art with it. The argument is whether "black" is an appropriate adjective for this occurrence.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Different genres are characterized by different things, you can't use one genre as a basis for how another "should" be defined. Look at each case separately based on its unique history.

Then that just classifies it from a historical standpoint rather than a musical one.

Which is by no means saying that "the music is restricted to these topics" - nothing is preventing Christians taking black metal aesthetics and creating fantastic art with it. The argument is whether "black" is an appropriate adjective for this occurrence.

Based on the music and dark themes (despite being Christian), yes the music should be considered black metal. The arguement is in your favor, however, from a historical standpoint.

 

[skeptik]

It's certainly not a coincidence based on the motives of the black metal originators. I'm not denying the fact that they used their ideologies to help establish the basic sound of black metal. However, it doesn't make sense to say that other forms of "dark" lyrics couldn't just as easily have influenced other bands to make this kind of music. It is purely a coincidence that the "commonly accepted black metal ideologies" were applied to this kind of music first. The fact that it's a coincidence has nothing to do with whether or not the bands intended to sound the way they do.

Coincidence really isn't the best term to be using here, but regardless, this segment of the conversation is entirely insignificant. I really don't know why we're even discussing it. The reality is that this is the music coinciding with the ideology that produced it, not some other music or ideology.

Since black metal IS a music genre, wouldn't the importance of the musical standpoint vastly outweigh the importance of the conceptual standpoint? The intellectual integrity used in black metal is there to enhance the music, not dictate what it is. The feelings evoked from the music itself is what sets off listeners, first and foremost. You have to remember that what we're dealing with is music, not literature.

Black Metal is a musical genre at the lowest common denominator. I've already addressed this. Black Metal is not merely a style of playing. The music that came to be understood as Black Metal is a direct product of the ideology. If the ideology was not in place, the likelihood is that the music would have been vastly different. So no, "the musical standpoint" does NOT "vastly outweigh the importance of the conceptual standpoint," because the music is an effect of the ideology. The ideology DOES dictate the music, it is not a subtext to the music. What the listeners experience has nothing to do with what the artists intended. And I don't see the point in making a distinction between music and literature, as they both have a similar circumstance, namely deciphering the artist's message and intent through critical examination of his or her work.

A painting is a whole different ordeal altogether. The point of a painting is to show symbolism through a visual aspect. Black metal, being a music genre, expresses it's artistic merits mainly through the music.

You don't think that there is symbolism in music? The medium through which a message is conveyed is irrelevant. Black Metal, being an ideological concept, expresses its ideological merits mainly through lyrics and coinciding music.

Once again, what we're dealing with here is music. What it sounds like is the basis for what it is.

Not necessarily, no.

It would be different if what we were dealing with was paintings or literature because these things are viewed from a visual aspect and the symbolism cannot necessarily be determined through first impression.

I think you're doing a disservice to music as a whole by holding it do a different standard than art and literature. And don't forget that music very often does have a visual component as well. And, of course, the lyrics are literature. Music often combines all of these mediums in order to convey a cohesive message or theme.

I'm not denying the fact that I get the feeling of vikings, pagans, anger, desperation, etc. from black metal. I just don't believe that the music is restricted to these topics. As I addressed before, your obviously not going to find a serious band with "happy go-lucky" lyrics in black metal, Christian or not. I think some of the common topics of black metal can easily be applied to Christianity anyway (not counting pagans and vikings of course).

From the very beginning, one of the key components of Black Metal has been anti-Christianity. The assumption that such a thing as Christian Black Metal could exist is nothing less than a paradox because it is in direct opposition to the virtues of the genre.

For clarity's sake, by Christian Metal generally I do not mean merely Metal played and created by Christians. I mean more specifically Metal that is created with a Christian message, namely preaching and professing that things are as they are because "God wills it." Killing is wrong because "God wills it." Stealing is wrong because "God wills it." This principle of the world being as it is and us following certain constructs and practices because it is dictated to us by a superior being is entirely incompatible with the framework upon which the ideological element of Black Metal is built. Obeisance and subservience is exactly the thing that Black Metal is fighting against. Black Metal is not about things. It is for and against things. It is for the old ways, for individualism, for a hearkening back to nature, for the destruction of Christianity and other religions. It is against modernity and conformity, against religion and mindless obeisance. And this is why there cannot be Christian Black Metal. It is, in fact, a contradiction of terms.

 

[skeptik]

Then that just classifies it from a historical standpoint rather than a musical one.

Genres are an historical occurence.

 

[KevenZ]

What's the best Marduk album to begin with?

Nightwing is their best imo..... followed by opus nocturne and those of the unlight.... the rest is pretty much garbage.

newcombers seems to like a lot the newest, Rom 512.

 

[KevenZ]

The new black metal band Malfeitor, created by Aborym's guitarist, has just released a new track, and it's so fucking awesome I am speechless.

http://www.myspace.com/malfeitor666

descent, sounds very Gorgoroth-ish.

 

[Alter]

And yet, virtually all current black metal shares similar ideological themes to the original bands. If anything, I'd say that the musical diversity found in black metal is far greater than the thematic diversity.


You keep saying 'coincidence'; each time it becomes more ridiculous. Your point seems to be that black metal could theoretically have come into existence without being tightly integrated with the ideas that spawned it - a wonderfully unprovable assertion. So what? Black metal *was* created solely to express these ideas. Why does what could have been matter? Doesn't your reasoning lead to everything being a coincidence and render concepts like black metal, NSBM, gangster rap, anarcho-punk, outlaw country, etc. nearly useless? Why argue for a broader, less descriptive definition of black metal that fails to accurately address the reality of the genre?


We are dealing with music, but most often in the case of metal words are a part of the music. Placing importance on one aspect of the art over the importance of the whole is an arbitrary action that leads to discussions like this. Don't assume that your favourite or the most popular part of the music is the most important, look at the whole.


Is someone arguing that it is?
...

I didn't.


+

=

You won

Go read Dante's Inferno and that is basically the most likely possible explanation of hell. If hell exists, the nature of sinners' punishments is relative to the nature of their sins. If the Inferno is fact, the majority of you will be burning alive in open tombs, because you, as heretics, believe that the soul dies with the body at death.

Sorry if that went a little off-topic, but that book really impressed me.

I might just read that after i finsh all my books i am reading.

The point is this. You can create a thousand sub-genres but in reality music is about music. Black metal does happen to have a satanic ideology sometimes but what about bands like immortal who sing about the winter what are they then? Or Ildjarn? Are they not black metal now?

 

[skeptik]

Black Metal =/= Satanism

Get out of this thread, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[Alter]

Black Metal =/= Satanism

Get out of this thread, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Ok. Answer this. Does immortal = satanism?

 

[skeptik]

Why the fuck would they even be associated with Satanism? As far as I know they never wrote anything of that nature. They write about nature and the north, their origins, and imaginary lands as a form of escapism from modernity. This is in line with the ideological basis of Black Metal. Satanism is only a small component of the ideology, and is not even remotely essential. It's merely a tool used most often to display a direct contrast and opposition to Christianity.