Black Metal.

[Zephyrus]

I agree on your point about IAD. That album does show the best synth-work that the band has put out, but the great thing about Limbonic Art is that each album showcases a different strength of the band. Moon in the Scorpio shows their mastery of atmosphere, while The Ultimate Death Worship demonstrates their proficiency of creating a powerful storm of guitars. Ad Noctum is the marriage of their superior synth-work with their new-found ability to crank up the guitar force.

Having every album sound like In Abhorrence Dementia would be pure stagnation (Epitome of Illusions sort of proves this) and their stages of evolution show off different strengths.


The band's work as a whole is not underrated. I think the reality is that people overrate their later albums, or Moon in the Scorpio exclusively, when all their albums deserve equal praise.

 

[George]

Even though I am a fan of Limbonic Art of all stages, I do have my doubts for the new album to be released this year. I don't know if they still have it in them.

 

[skeptik]

The only reason you say this is because of the extreme practices of the ideologies in the early scene. Like I said, people make this whole "inner circle" bullshit to be much more epic than it actually was when in reality, it was just a bunch of teens looking for something to rebel against. Most of the lyrical themes found in black metal were used long before black metal was even invented anyway. But now that the musicians ACTUALLY burned churches and ACTUALLY defiled graves the genre suddenly becomes more than just a music genre but an "epic movement".



And, once again, I ask you, would you still consider it more than a music genre if it weren't for the extreme ideologies being applied by the early bands?



Because the musical component is what's most important. I'm not saying that the ideological influences should be ignored but it shouldn't prevent the genre from evolution.



They do if you focus on the musical aspect. I, once again, hold the feeling evoked from the music in higher regard than the message being conveyed through lyrics.

You're confusing my meaning. When I say that "Black Metal is not merely a style of playing," I'm not insinuating the "movement" that took place in the early 90s consisting of church burnings, grave desecration, murder, etc. I'm referring to the ideas behind the music, not physical actions. It has been explained to you numerous times that the ideological component is inseparable from the music and, in fact, in large part the musical component plays a subservient role to the ideological component, which is what makes Black Metal so different from most other forms of Metal, though of course this propensity is not restricted to Black Metal.

There is ample room for evolution within Black Metal, on this point you are wrong. In fact, Black Metal has continued to evolve over the years, and anyone sufficiently well-versed in the matter could tell you this. And yet the ideological basis is still intact, despite the musical evolution and the sophistication of thought. So your insinuation that ideological bull-headedness stifles evolution is thankfully unfounded.

Being that this will be my last attempt to respond to your arguments since I've regurgitated myself numerous times at this point, I will end with this: the musical aspect of Black Metal is not necessarily the most important component. This could not possibly be true when the music plays a subservient role to the ideology and stems from the line of thought followed from that basis. This is because of Black Metal's unique history of evolution. It is simply a fact of the reality of the form that the conceptual framework in large part takes the leading role over the notes that are being played. As I'm sure you've noticed, rarely is Black Metal ever about "the riffs," as is so often found in basically ever other form of Metal. The music tends to take on a more minimalistic artistic expression, weaving emotions and images in the listener's head that correspond to the message being conveyed by the artist.

With these characteristics in mind, it should be clear that altering the ideological basis of Black Metal turns it into something entirely different, which is why Christian Black Metal cannot exist. However, at the same time that does not mean that there is no room for growth lyrically. A forward thinking artist can easily come up with a new approach in that aspect as well. I hope this last post has at least clarified my points a bit further, whether or not you completely see where I'm coming from, let alone agree with me.

 

[skeptik]

There's been a lot of Black Metal bands that I've simply passed by over the last few years, and I'm beginning to compile a list of them. So anyway, thoughts on these bands? There's quite a few. Also any other more obscure bands (preferably that actually have official releases that are available for purchase) that I might like, feel free to tell me about them.

Kriegsmaschine
Mgla
Misery's Omen
Old Wainds
Nav'
Ohtar
Darkest Grove
Krohm
Abazagorath
Lugubrum
Mactatus
Nazgul (Esp)
Uruk Hai (Esp)
Moontower
Pagan Hellfire
Secrets Of The Moon
Tenebrae In Perpetuum
Malign
Ondskapt
Baptism
Urgehal

 

[Alter]

Black metal is exclusivist, elitist, and anti-christian. Adding any christian element would cause it to be no longer black metal in the traditional sense of the word. And since most black metal is also traditionalist towards its own aesthete, the traditional sense of the word 'black metal' is the only sense that matters. Christians should be shot... or better yet, burnt at the stake.

Who are you?

 

[unknown]

Kriegsmaschine
Mgla
Misery's Omen
Old Wainds
Nav'
Ohtar
Darkest Grove
Krohm
Abazagorath
Lugubrum
Mactatus
Nazgul (Esp)
Uruk Hai (Esp)
Moontower
Pagan Hellfire
Secrets Of The Moon
Tenebrae In Perpetuum
Malign
Ondskapt
Baptism
Urgehal

Mgla and Secrets of the Moon both get my approval. Haven't heard much from the other bands. I think Alina is a fan of Nav'

 

[Manic Ferocity]

You're confusing my meaning. When I say that "Black Metal is not merely a style of playing," I'm not insinuating the "movement" that took place in the early 90s consisting of church burnings, grave desecration, murder, etc. I'm referring to the ideas behind the music, not physical actions. It has been explained to you numerous times that the ideological component is inseparable from the music and, in fact, in large part the musical component plays a subservient role to the ideological component, which is what makes Black Metal so different from most other forms of Metal, though of course this propensity is not restricted to Black Metal.

There is ample room for evolution within Black Metal, on this point you are wrong. In fact, Black Metal has continued to evolve over the years, and anyone sufficiently well-versed in the matter could tell you this. And yet the ideological basis is still intact, despite the musical evolution and the sophistication of thought. So your insinuation that ideological bull-headedness stifles evolution is thankfully unfounded.

Being that this will be my last attempt to respond to your arguments since I've regurgitated myself numerous times at this point, I will end with this: the musical aspect of Black Metal is not necessarily the most important component. This could not possibly be true when the music plays a subservient role to the ideology and stems from the line of thought followed from that basis. This is because of Black Metal's unique history of evolution. It is simply a fact of the reality of the form that the conceptual framework in large part takes the leading role over the notes that are being played. As I'm sure you've noticed, rarely is Black Metal ever about "the riffs," as is so often found in basically ever other form of Metal. The music tends to take on a more minimalistic artistic expression, weaving emotions and images in the listener's head that correspond to the message being conveyed by the artist.

With these characteristics in mind, it should be clear that altering the ideological basis of Black Metal turns it into something entirely different, which is why Christian Black Metal cannot exist. However, at the same time that does not mean that there is no room for growth lyrically. A forward thinking artist can easily come up with a new approach in that aspect as well. I hope this last post has at least clarified my points a bit further, whether or not you completely see where I'm coming from, let alone agree with me.

I actually agree with you on most of these notions. I just think it comes down to the music, first and foremost.

Anyways, I just bought Lords of Chaos out of impulse despite knowing how historically innacurate I've heard it is. Any thoughts on this book?

 

[skeptik]

I think that the appendices supplied in the book, as well as a few of the later 3 or 4 chapters are actually quite interesting and not all that bad. It's a decent read as long as you take it with a grain of salt, which you seem already prepared to do.

 

[MasterOLightning]

Kriegsmaschine
Mgla
Misery's Omen
Old Wainds
Nav'
Ohtar
Darkest Grove
Krohm
Abazagorath
Lugubrum
Mactatus
Nazgul (Esp)
Uruk Hai (Esp)
Moontower
Pagan Hellfire
Secrets Of The Moon
Tenebrae In Perpetuum
Malign
Ondskapt
Baptism
Urgehal

Mgla is solid and should appeal to fans of old Deathspell Omega. Kriegsmaschine is influenced by newer DsO, but is not all that successful, also reminds me a bit of Katharsis (Ger), but not as good as that either.
Krohm is along the lines of USBM like Xasthur. What I've heard sounded pretty good.

As for Lords of Chaos, I still don't recall anyone actually breaking down what the inaccuracies are. Maybe there was a bit of inaccuracy by omission, but that's hard to quantify. I think the book is definitely worth reading regardless.

 

[AchrisK]

So what genre is Horde? What genre? I am not asking what they are not. I am asking what they are.

(please hold all sarcastic replies)

ack

 

[Alter]

So what genre is Horde? What genre? I am not asking what they are not. I am asking what they are.

(please hold all sarcastic replies)

ack

Well some may say black metal some may say unblack metal. I say black metal becuase I think music is definded by the sound not the lyrics. Make your own choice.

Just got the old wainds demo...its ok.

 

[Slayed Necros]

There's been a lot of Black Metal bands that I've simply passed by over the last few years, and I'm beginning to compile a list of them. So anyway, thoughts on these bands? There's quite a few. Also any other more obscure bands (preferably that actually have official releases that are available for purchase) that I might like, feel free to tell me about them.

Old Wainds
Nav'
Ohtar
Krohm
Lugubrum
Tenebrae In Perpetuum
Malign
Ondskapt
Baptism

Old Wainds and Nav' are fantastic. Violent, ferocious and utterly frozen Black Metal from Russia. Nav' comes with my highest of recommendations, as the sound they create is extremely unique and quite unlike anything I've heard before (with the exception of some Old Wainds, as the bands are very closely related). Seek out Halls of Death by Nav' and Where the Snows are Never Gone by Old Wainds.

Ohtar - Good Polish Black Metal that doesn't owe it's existence to Rob Darken. I find When I Cut the Throat to be their strongest. Cleanly produced, melodic and hypnotizing. Very cool stuff.

Krohm - One of those "suicidal" BM bands from the US. Sounds a bit like Xasthur, but is aeons better. Still, nothing special or even the least bit essential. Check everything else out first.

Lugubrum - I've only heard Winterstones and it's great (early) Burzum worship. I know Falco loves it.

Tenebrae In Perpetuum - The side-project of the main guy behind Beatrik. Like Transilvanian Hunger-era Darkthrone with less obscurity and more riffs (and not 1/100th as good ).

Malign - "Orthodox" Black Metal from Sweden. This will appeal to you if you like Watain, Ofermod or later period Deathspell Omega.

Ondskapt - See above, except they're leagues better and slightly more original. I really like Dödens Evangelium, and if the whole "Orthodox Satanic Black Metal" thing interests you, you'll probably like it too. My guess is it doesn't, though.

Baptism - Average Norwegian Black Metal worship from Finland. Wisdom & Hate has a few interesting moments, but overall isn't really worth the effort.

 

[AchrisK]

Genre classifications are just forms of communication. Some people hate them because they feel that they pigeon-hole bands, but they are a helpful set of words which help us humans communicate with each other. Without them we would be describing the aesthetic elements (and lytrical content) of every band, and repeating certain sentences over and over (which, by the way, would eventually devolve into genre classifications).

I have typically been one to associate genre purely with musical style, mostly in the interest of communication. I understand why people argue against that, but it makes communication a whole lot more difficult.

So to those who say genre classification is more than musical aesthetic and style, how do you label music with a black metal or death metal aesthetic which has lyrics which are positive, uplifting, or relate to someone's Judeo-Christian beliefs? Or how about DM or BM played by people who are Christians, which has fantasy, neutral or allegorical (to whatever) lyrics?

I am really not trying to start or continue an argument. I just want to know what you feel it should be called.

ack

 

[Zephyrus]

Even though I am a fan of Limbonic Art of all stages, I do have my doubts for the new album to be released this year. I don't know if they still have it in them.

The Ultimate Death Worship did show signs that they were running out of steam, but I think that after a few years they have amalgamated some fresh ideas for this new album. For once, I cannot wait for September to come.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Was going to respond to ObscureInfinity further, but it seems most of his replies boil down to "I agree, but I think black metal is only defined by music." Never quite got the "because..." straight.

Why the fuck would they even be associated with Satanism? As far as I know they never wrote anything of that nature.

Only seven winds are heard
Chaiming through the dark Northern valleys
Eternity I pass eternity I seeked
For the darkness my spirit
For satan my black soul

- Immortal, "Cold Winds Of Funeral Dust"

So what genre is Horde? What genre? I am not asking what they are not. I am asking what they are.

Horde is a band that defines themselves by what they are not - "holy unblack metal" is how they refer to themselves. I find this to be the best name for the genre they have spawned as it describes them effectively - far more effectively than simply calling them "black metal", which would totally overlook and insult the purpose of their art.

I have typically been one to associate genre purely with musical style, mostly in the interest of communication. I understand why people argue against that, but it makes communication a whole lot more difficult.

It depends on the situation in which the communication is occurring - from a consumer standpoint, or when looking for bands to listen to for entertainment, the basic sonic content of the art is the most important. But if you want to look at the music from a historical, philosophical, academic, or even artistic perspective, having anti-black metal bands grouped in with black metal bands under one broad label greatly complicates communication.

 

[Zephyrus]

Only seven winds are heard
Chaiming through the dark Northern valleys
Eternity I pass eternity I seeked
For the darkness my spirit
For satan my black soul

- Immortal, "Cold Winds Of Funeral Dust"

Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism was simply a way to get Immortal recognized and respected as a new band contributing to the second wave. Once they gained a foothold, they quickly tossed aside the satanic lyrical concept and went on to write exclusively about the Northern Grim Forests and whatnot.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism was simply a way to get Immortal recognized and respected as a new band contributing to the second wave. Once they gained a foothold, they quickly tossed aside the satanic lyrical concept and went on to write exclusively about the Northern Grim Forests and whatnot.

You essentially just called Immortal poseurs. I don't think I've read the interview where they said that, link?

 

[Zephyrus]

As oxymoronic as it sounds, they were the original poseurs.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

If you are referring to the self-deprecating humour present in their art I am well aware of that, but saying the themes on their first album were just a way to gain "a foothold" makes it sound like a calculating marketing ploy. By not supplying evidence I can only assume you are talking out of your ass.

 

[Zephyrus]

Abbath was inspired by Euronymous to play black metal. Since Immortal were trying to figure how to play black metal, I assume the best way to do it was copy the exact sound and concept, and once you've got that down you can start molding it into your own unique sound, and the same goes for lyrics.