I thought the Peste Noire album was good but a disappointment in regards to Peste Noire's earlier material, or even their previous album I thought was much better. But overall, it's not a bad album I just wouldn't recommend it to Peste Noire fans.
Black Metal.
- Thread starter ROBL2500
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Koude Haat
Member
it's a lot fucking better than most black metal releases in 2007. I agree it isn't as good as their previous album, but it is quite good.
wagontrain
Member
You see, that is why I called it a ridiculous argument. Mostly because, there is nothing to support, it is a very simple idea. The music is the music, everything else is everything else. Yes, it is that simple.
You can talk about the "entire piece of art" all day, but it doesn't change the music or the fact that some people, like myself, don't care about anything except for the music. If the "total package" is so important to you, why stop at the album artwork and titles? Shouldn't you be looking at what the band members look like? Their biographies and history? What clothes they were wearing when the album was recorded and produced, and what the plant that printed the CDs looks like and who works there? To me, those things are about as important as the song titles. That is - they aren't.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy good song titles. But it is a simple extra amusement, completely separate from the enjoyment of the music, and in the scheme of things totally unnecessary and insignificant.
You talk about pieces of art. Music is the art. If you want visual art, go to an art museum. You want titles and lyrics, read some poetry. I don't judge my favorite musicians on their poetic and artistic talent, just like you wouldn't look at a Picasso painting and wonder whether he understood the concept of the harmonic progressions in the symphony he was listening to while he washed off his paintbrushes before starting the painting.
Again, there is nothing wrong with admiring lyrics and artwork etc. But thinking that we are "missing" something by not doing that, is just... fucking stupid. Glad you enjoyed the name-calling. I've spent too many years on the internet to really deeply care about arguing with people who I believe to be completely and clearly wrong and who obviously have no desire to listen to reason.
No, I don't have that one. Actually, I do so very much downloading already, I have to be very selective in what I get, and I almost always avoid "pagan" or "folk" downloads. I know I will miss stuff, but it is inevitable and a necessary evil of my downloading habits.
Define most. Have you heard everything on my list? Judging by your last.fm and by that alone, I am going to guess you haven't even heard a fraction of what's on my list, and you would probably dislike most of it anyway, so you probably shouldn't even bother.
I had Lorraine Rehearsal on the list (I don't remember if I took it off???) only because of "Phalenes et Pestilence". I can't bring myself to enjoy the rest of it, and in fact, after spending too much time with that album I decided I didn't really care to hear Folkfuck Folie. So no, I have not listened to it, and don't really plan to, since I have not heard good things (in both senses of the heard).
This is what the "corpse paint" is for; to create a detachment from the human factor, which also relates to a lot of the other crap you listed. Get the difference? Black metal purposefully removes itself from earthly, mundane qualities by focusing on (1) sound, (2) inhuman aesthetics and (3) philosophy. (1) and (2) often intertwine, obviously, while (3) is reflected through lyrics as well as point (1). But the important thing to remember is that none of these points are dispensable.
If you remove (1), you'll end up with something like latter-day Deathspell Omega; all flash with no substance.
If you remove (2), you end up with something, you'll end up with some radio friendly "intellectual" crap, such as Vintersorg (if I could allow myself to make the false assumption that Vintersorg has any (1) to speak of
).If you remove (3), you'll end up with black metal with no soul or artistic integrity. USBM, anyone?
Only because you are making that simple. Again, selective perception, because you aren't interested in the music as art, but as entertainment - so you discard the parts of it that don't immediately stimulate you.
Which is fine, but you act as though interpretation and analysis of music is a foolish waste of time simply because *you* aren't interested in them. You can talk about "music is the music, everything else is everything else" all day but that doesn't change the fact that some people care about the music as the art it was intended as and not just fun and meaningless sounds.
The total package is generally the CD. Didn't you ever wonder why bands don't just sell unlabeled CDRs with nothing but untitled tracks on them? It's almost as if the band intended the lyrics, art, themes, et al. to accompany the music... Looking at the band's history, image, personal feelings/ideals/philosophies can greatly enhance your understanding of the music they create.
"Enjoy", "amusement" - I understand where you are coming from, what I don't understand is why you seem to deny that music can be experienced as anything other than entertainment.
Did Picasso purposefully include music along with his paintings? Really, your analogies are painfully inept.
They are missing something - the meaning behind the music. How can you deny this?
Koude Haat
Member
i actually own most of those albums. you see, people actually buy albums you know? I don't listen to all my music on my computer, so how the fuck is lastfm supposed to be a good judge of my music taste?
I'm guessing you only download music.
here is my top ten for this year.
Funeral winds - nexion xul
Inquisition - Nefarious
krohm - The Haunting Presence
peste noire - Folkfuck Folie
Graveland - Will Stronger Than Death
Walknut - Graveforests
Lunar Aurora - Andacht
Profanatica - Profanatitas De Domonatia
Nae'blis - Sketches of Reality
Shining - V - Halmstad
MasterOLightning
Optimator
I always thought this album sucked hard, as in, the worst album by any of the big six bands pre-1997. It just sounded terrible to me the first four or so times through. What exactly is good about it?
DarkBliss
...And okra for all
Not that there is anything wrong with musical analysis,if that's what stimulates you,(although, in a nutshell, it's all just word wizardry),however, what you said above had to be arrived at only after you listened to the albums at hand and found the music to be worthy of appreciation. Then you are free to interpret the rest of the package in a way that will befit the music and make the album on the whole more deeply meaningful for you. Had you found the music to be insipid and uninspired, you wouldn't have bothered with the rest of the package.
Regardless, I sort of see what you're saying. If Puissance for instance talked about equal human rights or how everyone should worship Jesus, their music would probably confuse the listener. I just don't find this approach to be equally valid for extreme metal, since the music can speak volumes on its own, even when the lyrics are indecipeherable and you don't always have the booklet handy for reference.
Cythraul
Active Member
- Dec 10, 2003
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Dude, are you fucking kidding me? Even when I didn't like this album I didn't think it sucked hard. I'd be glad to list its strong points but not right now because I am a bit inebriated.
I would love to buy this album.But in my country I can't even find any Behemoth CD(I live in bangladesh).And I can't afford buying through internet cuz I can't afford a paypal.So,almost alwas my only option is downloading if I wanna listen to metal(specially BM).As for lyrics, they are in the booklet. Buy it
Moreover,most of the CD's I bought(before net came to my home,now I only buy original stuff when I can find) from stores are CD's wrote by them,some of them even use their own store seals on printed CD covers & most of the music have bad quality.I bought motorhead-1916 which was even not original(thats how unmetal most people here is).So,thats just plain pirecy.I would love to help the bands I love by buying their stuff.But almost all of the time I just can't.
Please upload the lyrics to M-A.Thanks in advance.
I bought Satyricon-Nemesis Divina a couple weeks ago. Upon my first listen I was a little disappointed as this was supposed to be a "great" CD, I thought "Mother North is a classic song, why cna't the rest of the album be like that" In other words the things that hook you into this CD doesn't quite take you in until further listens, it's not as accesibile as Now, Diabolical for sure. But now I'm really liking this CD, I got used to the vocals not being an aggresive rasp all the time and like them, and overall it's very good, I wouldn't say it's a classic or great, but it has moments of greatness. Like the first 2 minutes of the song Nemesis Divina, one of the best riffs in black metal I've ever heard, Immortality Passion is a really good epic and has such a strong climax, I initially thought it was one of the weaker songs on this record but after further listens I really enjoy this song a lot, it's very good. Du Som Hater Gud is a very good song, not as good as Mother North but overall it's on par with Dawn of a New Age. Whic brings me to this, Dawn of a New Age is a great song, it may not have a Mother North like riff that you instantly love, but it all is so cohesive, so melodic at times, so chaotic. Forkhest, a song that has its moments and depedning on thins it's either good but not quite as interesting as the rest of the CD. Transcendental Requiem of Slaves is a great instrumental, I love it, if it had vocals it'd be even better. Mother North is a classic song, one of my favorites in black metal. So what we have here are 1 classic song, a couple great or very good songs, and a couple good songs, this CD has really grown on me, I'm really enjoying it, doesn't quite achieve greatness, but it's up there, a very good listen, it's also a great way to concentrate on tasks while you listen to this CD.
cookiecutter
Proceed to Ultraslamming
wagontrain
Member
You make some decent, if highly obvious, points. The problem is that you are entwining the black metal culture with black metal the music. Further, the fact that you summarily dismiss USBM and Deathspell Omega in the process of trying to explain why I can't ignore corpse-paint makes the idea of trying to argue with you almost laughable. You're one of "those" guys, aren't you? I can only refer you to an article I wrote and posted in "The Philosopher" forum, http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...ack-metal-phenomenon-reasonable-approach.html.This is what the "corpse paint" is for; to create a detachment from the human factor, which also relates to a lot of the other crap you listed. Get the difference? Black metal purposefully removes itself from earthly, mundane qualities by focusing on (1) sound, (2) inhuman aesthetics and (3) philosophy. (1) and (2) often intertwine, obviously, while (3) is reflected through lyrics as well as point (1). But the important thing to remember is that none of these points are dispensable.
If you remove (1), you'll end up with something like latter-day Deathspell Omega; all flash with no substance.
If you remove (2), you end up with something, you'll end up with some radio friendly "intellectual" crap, such as Vintersorg (if I could allow myself to make the false assumption that Vintersorg has any (1) to speak of
If you remove (3), you'll end up with black metal with no soul or artistic integrity. USBM, anyone?
Wow. Fucking wow. Selective reading comprehension? Not being interested in the packaging of the music does NOT equal not being interested in music as art. Please tell me you are not that dense. Or perhaps you are someone who doesn't think music itself is art, and only receives its status as art because of the physical artwork and packaging etc surrounding the actual music?
Yeah. Not even close. The art, emotion, and everything else you are talking about I find within the music itself. Based on what you have been saying, to you the music is just music and the "art" part of it comes from the artists habits, lyrics, and album artwork. And yeah, actually, the whole "artist intention" thing is a different debate, but personally while I may find the intention interesting, it usually doesn't effect my impression of the music.
Perhaps most importantly, I have said nothing is a waste of time. In fact, it was your argument that is trying to tell me and others that we are "missing something". Like we are not getting the most important part of the music because we *choose* not to care about the song titles. I have no problems at all with people being interested, even fascinated with things like that, but don't tell me you have a deeper listening experience because of it, because that is pretentious horseshit.
But keep saying music is nothing more than entertainment and meaningless sound because I don't read the lyrics.
Yeah, clearly unlabeled CDs and untitled tracks would go over really well.
What I am coming to realize about your position on this is that, unfortunately, you probably don't actually know enough about music itself, or are not able to listen analytically enough, to get all these abstract things you are talking about directly from the music, so you look to other sources and think you can extrapolate the meaning of the music by reading lyrics and titles. Hate to break it to you, but a lot of us find the philosophical and emotional meaning in the music itself.
"You listen to the music and ignore the artwork. I get all my deeper meaning from the artwork and packaging. That means I experience music as a work of art and not entertainment. Why can't you experience music as a work of art like me by reading song titles?"
Unbelievable.
I'm relatively certain that musicians have little choice as to whether a physical CD, jewel case, artwork, and song titles accompanies their music.
And really, it does help to be able to identify bands and cds by sight, and makes a large music collection look less dull. I ponder the meaning of life while I stare at my multi-colored CD collection.
I can and do deny this. I will refer you also to this thread, so that you may try to understand why I deny it, though at this point I don't see much hope. http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...ack-metal-phenomenon-reasonable-approach.html
First of all, it's funny that you would attack me about buying albums. I have a pretty large CD collection, around 800 albums, but no I have not purchased anything from 2007 yet. I apologize for that, will you forgive me? Seriously though, I plan on buying at the very least everything on my top 35 list and whatever else in addition to that that I can afford.
Like I said, I was going off only your last.fm, and obviously I was wrong. That's a great top 10 list, and pretty incredible that you have 4 of the same albums in it as I do. Krohm has a very good chance of ending up near or on my top 10, but I haven't heard it yet. Funeral Winds I got and listened to after the list was made, but it is very good as well.
Clearly you have very similar taste to me. Maybe you would consider doing a more in-depth list so I could learn what else you are listening to and maybe get some recommendations? That would be better than arguing about Peste Noire.
And now I am curious. Have you heard Sacrificia Mortuorum?
I would say that in this case the "problem" is that you are creating a separation between the black metal culture and the black metal music where a natural one doesn't exist.
If you are interested in the music as art, why experience it completely out of the context in which it was presented?
All I care about is the complete picture as the artist presents it, whatever that may contain.
No, the music is just sounds, the lyrics are just words, the visual art is just a picture. When you look at them as a whole you get an accurate picture of the entire art.
You are missing out on part of the music, the meaning. Of course this seems to you that you aren't missing out on anything because you don't care what the music is about. But music has meaning, you are ignoring it, therefore you *are* missing out on something.
So how does one interpret the meaning of a piece of music taken out of context, I wonder?But keep saying music is nothing more than entertainment and meaningless sound because I don't read the lyrics.
Why not, if none of the "packaging" matters?
Are you saying you can get the meaning of the music just by listening to it? Like, the first time you heard Hellig Usvart you figured out what it was about by the sounds alone?
You ignore context, I don't. That's how I would put it."You listen to the music and ignore the artwork. I get all my deeper meaning from the artwork and packaging. That means I experience music as a work of art and not entertainment. Why can't you experience music as a work of art like me by reading song titles?"
Unbelievable.
They have a choice as to what those lyrics are, how the physical package is presented, what visual artwork accompanies it, what the song titles are. They are generally intended to appear as they do, while ignoring things that Picasso never intended to be part of the art hardly diminishes your understanding of one of his paintings.
So either you're saying you aren't missing out on anything because you can somehow get the meaning of the music just by listening to it, or because the meaning of the music isn't important. Or am I missing something?
I'm not going to read much into the current debate, but sometimes an album's artwork is made simplistic and less artistic so that the listener focuses on the music only. This would enable the listener to interpret the music in their own manner, and quite often bands do not want to give the listener a complete view, rather let them use their own perspective. Also remember that some bands just hire an artist to make the album artwork look nice, I'd say the majority of time the album artwork has little to do with representing the music for this reason.
However, I definitely buy cds because I like having the artwork, lyrics etc, and not to mention the experience is more memorable than just downloading the album. However, I download cds by means to explore what is out there, and if I enjoy the album enough I will buy it assuming it isn't nearly impossible to obtain.
However, I definitely buy cds because I like having the artwork, lyrics etc, and not to mention the experience is more memorable than just downloading the album. However, I download cds by means to explore what is out there, and if I enjoy the album enough I will buy it assuming it isn't nearly impossible to obtain.
Life Sucks
and then you die
I agree with this, of course even if the album art isn't meant to represent the music it is still important. A simplistic cover aimed at getting you to focus on the aural qualities of the album is as important contextually as an intricate one detailing the album's thematic content.
thisisaforicatable covered the rest of your post, so I'll leave it at this.
When a person makes sweeping comments like that, it is normally quite tongue-in-cheek. This was no exception. Hell, I even listen to some USBM. And I've read your article, and I remember sensing that you have a strong distaste towards black metal purism. That, of course, is your problem, and I won't bother with that now. But everything I've read from you, ever, has really only made it more and more clear that you have no deeper udnerstanding of the genre. I hope you'll learn.
When a person makes sweeping comments like that, it is normally quite tongue-in-cheek. This was no exception. Hell, I even listen to some USBM. And I've read your article, and I remember sensing that you have a strong distaste towards black metal purism. That, of course, is your problem, and I won't bother with that now. But everything I've read from you, ever, has really only made it more and more clear that you have no deeper udnerstanding of the genre. I hope you'll learn.
MasterOLightning
Optimator
Agreed. I liked the Kenose artwork, but it was so abstract, and there was really no help to interpret it. The Fas - Ite artwork has a more fitting narrative arc.
I've noticed that the pictures in the booklet attempt to accompany the music in the same way that the lyrics do. This seems to have made things a bit easier to decipher. A set of lyrics go with a musical phrase, then the artwork goes with the next phrase in a somewhat loose way. They tie in to some of the ambient parts that are rather unpopular with many of this album's listeners, giving them more meaning. The booklet really improves the album experience. Everyone who bashed it upon listening to the leak obviously missed this.
I'm not really familiar with any bands using artwork to accompany phrases other than in a very broad sense where one picture represents one song in the booklet.
That being said, I still think Fas - Ite, is the weakest DsO since Infernal Battles.
Sabin Frost
Doom makes me happy
Good post on ND Derek, I would quote it but it is rather large. I would say it is a great album however, but it is one that really grows on you are you are best listening to before other Satyricon or around the same time you pick up DMT, its harder to appreciate if Black n Roll Satyricon has grown on you too much.
I have been listening to a lot of Ulver lately, but in addition to that I have gone back to a couple of favourites, Estatic Fear and Meza Virs. If you like Melodic Black Metal, kick yourself if you have not heard either band, Especially Estatic Fear, they do Black Doom very well.
I have been listening to a lot of Ulver lately, but in addition to that I have gone back to a couple of favourites, Estatic Fear and Meza Virs. If you like Melodic Black Metal, kick yourself if you have not heard either band, Especially Estatic Fear, they do Black Doom very well.
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