Black Metal.

[wagontrain]

I would say that in this case the "problem" is that you are creating a separation between the black metal culture and the black metal music where a natural one doesn't exist.
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I'm going to say this once more, as clearly as I possibly can, and that will be the end of the argument on my part.

I draw very nearly all of the meaning I find necessary from the music, and by music I mean music alone. Whatever meaning I get from the album is, to me, its true meaning. It could be completely opposite from what they intended and it doesn't matter. To me, album artwork is simply a necessity and since it is necessary, some attempt should be made to make it look nice/appropriate - same for titles and lyrics. The idea of "ignoring context" is rather arbitrary, mainly because what defines context is essentially limitless, and the only distinct line can be drawn between the music itself, and things other than the music (things other than the music being context). Beyond that, I put no stock in the artwork, lyrics, or titles, period.

To me, the complete package is the music itself. To you, the complete package is the music and a bunch of other stuff. To someone else, the complete package is the music, a bunch of other stuff, and the temperature, scenery, and what they are doing when they listen to it. To someone else, the complete package is the music and a 1000 page written history of the genre. Anyone that claims they are getting "more" than another because their package is more "complete", is full of shit. I don't claim to be getting more out of the music than you do just because I choose to concentrate fully on only the music, even though you seem to think I am missing out on something myself.

I could really give a shit less what most artists think. Some I agree with, some I don't, some have interesting ideas, some don't. Personally, I like to choose whose ideas I want to read and interpret, and they are usually philosophers or scientists, not musicians.

I leave you with this quote from myself, which sums up my opinion on the matter: "It seems a great affront on the value of the music itself to claim that the lyrics or more especially, actions of the musicians behind the music, is such an important part of what we get out of listening to black metal. There is certainly nothing wrong with getting these things yourself because we each look for different things in music. However, a claim that ignoring the message makes the music less of an experience, or less valuable, feels dangerously like an indictment of the music itself. I simply can’t agree with such a claim under any circumstances."

I'm not going to read much into the current debate, but sometimes an album's artwork is made simplistic and less artistic so that the listener focuses on the music only...
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I'm not going to quote your whole post, since this is only to say that I agree with you and have the same habits mostly.

When a person makes sweeping comments like that, it is normally quite tongue-in-cheek. This was no exception. Hell, I even listen to some USBM. And I've read your article, and I remember sensing that you have a strong distaste towards black metal purism. That, of course, is your problem, and I won't bother with that now. But everything I've read from you, ever, has really only made it more and more clear that you have no deeper udnerstanding of the genre. I hope you'll learn.

You lose the ability to make "tongue-in-cheek" comments when you are from Norway and the comment you are making is made all-to-often in a completely serious manner. You can't expect people to think you are joking, personally I don't buy it, and I think you meant what you said, you probably do dismiss USBM and worship Darkthrone and Mayhem. It's a pretty common attitude, and as stupid as it is common.

The term black metal purism is quite the joke. These supposed "black metal purists" are the idiots who listen to only the same 10, 20, 30 or whatever bands and claim everything else is trash (not to mention ignoring all other musical genres in the process). Even sillier to discredit all or most music from X region (USBM). I have seen no evidence from you that you are not one of these people.

If the type of deeper understanding of the genre you are talking about is the kind I think you yourself believe you have, I want no part of it. I am not compelled in any way whatsoever to explain to you if or why I have a deeper understanding of black metal, as it clearly will not result in any insights on either of our parts.

And you are definitely right. I will never learn, be taught, or acquire, the deeper understanding of black metal that the "true" idiots claim, because I have nothing but utter disdain for the mockery of a truly black spirit those attitudes contain. I always have, and always will, however, keep an open mind and revise my opinions based on new knowledge and perspectives I obtain, so feel free to try to enlighten me. At the very least, you will give me more ammunition for my fight against people that (from what I have seen so far) think like you.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I'm going to say this once more, as clearly as I possibly can, and that will be the end of the argument on my part.

I draw very nearly all of the meaning I find necessary from the music, and by music I mean music alone. Whatever meaning I get from the album is, to me, its true meaning. It could be completely opposite from what they intended and it doesn't matter. To me, album artwork is simply a necessity and since it is necessary, some attempt should be made to make it look nice/appropriate - same for titles and lyrics. The idea of "ignoring context" is rather arbitrary, mainly because what defines context is essentially limitless, and the only distinct line can be drawn between the music itself, and things other than the music (things other than the music being context). Beyond that, I put no stock in the artwork, lyrics, or titles, period.

To me, the complete package is the music itself. To you, the complete package is the music and a bunch of other stuff. To someone else, the complete package is the music, a bunch of other stuff, and the temperature, scenery, and what they are doing when they listen to it. To someone else, the complete package is the music and a 1000 page written history of the genre. Anyone that claims they are getting "more" than another because their package is more "complete", is full of shit. I don't claim to be getting more out of the music than you do just because I choose to concentrate fully on only the music, even though you seem to think I am missing out on something myself.

I could really give a shit less what most artists think. Some I agree with, some I don't, some have interesting ideas, some don't. Personally, I like to choose whose ideas I want to read and interpret, and they are usually philosophers or scientists, not musicians.

I leave you with this quote from myself, which sums up my opinion on the matter: "It seems a great affront on the value of the music itself to claim that the lyrics or more especially, actions of the musicians behind the music, is such an important part of what we get out of listening to black metal. There is certainly nothing wrong with getting these things yourself because we each look for different things in music. However, a claim that ignoring the message makes the music less of an experience, or less valuable, feels dangerously like an indictment of the music itself. I simply can’t agree with such a claim under any circumstances."

It seems that, as we knew all along, you listen to music for entertainment - you don't care what the music is about, what it means, what ideas it is trying to communicate. I do that myself quite often; what I find objectionable is your need to belittle those who seek a greater understanding of the music, and consequentially the artist who puts so much effort into creating a meaningful work. I find your stance close-minded and limiting - it is no use denying that you are missing out on something, because no matter how much personal fulfillment you get out of listening to music you are still missing out on understanding what the music is about. Sure, it isn't important to *you*, that's fine, but it's important to the artist who took the trouble to place it there, and it's important to those of us who try to interpret music as the art it was intended as.

There is no "indictment of the music" happening here, if the music was meant to stand alone, then it would have been presented that way by the artist. But it rarely is.

 

[wagontrain]

I am just posting to let you know that I read that response, and that I'm not sure whether to pity your lack of understanding or dismiss you for a totally misguided elitist. Unfortunately, I meant it when I said I was done arguing with you.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I am just posting to let you know that I read that response, and that I'm not sure whether to pity your lack of understanding or dismiss you for a totally misguided elitist. Unfortunately, I meant it when I said I was done arguing with you.

There is no lack of understanding - as I said, I listen to music in the way you describe all the time. I just don't pretend that I'm getting everything that the music has to offer, and I certainly don't insult those who take the music more seriously. Your inability to defend your position is disappointing but not altogether surprising.

 

[Cythraul]

I am just posting to let you know that I read that response, and that I'm not sure whether to pity your lack of understanding or dismiss you for a totally misguided elitist. Unfortunately, I meant it when I said I was done arguing with you.

Very good point, lots of words, nice ad hominem. Kudos to that one.

 

[wagontrain]

Very good point, lots of words, nice ad hominem. Kudos to that one.

Thanks. I strive to match your level of contribution.

 

[Death Aflame]

But the lyrics are a part of the art, not the packaging as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps they are less important in the extreme metal realm where words are barely decipherable half of the time (and I won't lie, lyrics are often secondary to me due in part to this). But I still value good diction. Like you said, lyrics and packaging aesthetics DO enhance music. So why not enhance as much as possible? Why just create great music and stop there? Maybe some people would call me superficial for having that attitude, and ultimately the strength of the music itself will dictate what I listen to most of the time. But I just think if musicians have all these other tools at their disposal (cover art, lyrics, live show, hell even band photos) they might as well make the most of them. I'm not saying everyone needs to have a Shakespeare-like grasp on language and wording, as there's a lot of great music with fairly dumb lyrics. It would just be nice if it added to the overall impact of the music, whatever it takes to do so.

I agree that titles, lyrics and appropriate artwork can enhance the overall package of a piece of music. However, I am more than willing to overlook bad song titles/lyrics (usually due to language barriers) if the music is worthwhile. I guess it all comes down to personal taste but to me overlooking great music (talking the music itself here) because of a shoddy presentation/translation aspects seems quite wasteful. This was the point I was attempting to get across earlier.

My previous example was Molested and I think it still stands. The song titles, band name and cover art for Blod Draum are pretty crappy however this does not stop the album from being master class, not in the slightest.

Edit: thisisaformicatable, I understand your perspective and to some extent I agree. One should, wherever possible, attempt to understand the artist's original intentions with their art (including titles, artwork, band name etc.). However, this isn't necessarily the 'right' way to appreciate the music. This comes from the emotions, themes and overall fulfillment that one can glean from the music itself in its abstract form and is largely based on personal interpretation.

For another example, I'll use Burzum. I do not agree with Varg's overall political message but I absolutely adore HLTO for its musical qualities (riffs, motifs, structure, production, atmosphere etc.) I understand and respect the position that Varg was attempting to get across with his music but it is not this that makes me appreciate the work. Rather, it's the ability of the work to appeal to me on a higher and for lack of a better term 'deeper' emotional plane that I feel, connects with my soul. And thus I fail to see how appreciating the music alone simply denotes 'being entertained' whereas if I agreed with Varg's original message I would get the 'art' of it?

 

[KevenZ]

Shadowthrone > nemesis divina

 

[Matt]

Shadowthrone > nemesis divina

I think it's funny how you tend to think the opposite of what everyone else does. (Not really in this post, but in general)

 

[skeptik]

thisisaformicatable is a better person because he reads all of the lyrics and makes sure all of the bands he listens to speaks their respective languages properly.

Not all music needs to be analyzed to get 'full' enjoyment out of it.

As far as the original band in question is concerned, you should be intelligent enough to be able to weed through the poor English to decipher the band's meaning, since the intention is vastly more important than the execution. But whatever.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Fucking amen!

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Fucking amen!

 

[Ender Rises]

Fucking amen!

 

[KevenZ]

I think it's funny how you tend to think the opposite of what everyone else does. (Not really in this post, but in general)

Sorry for having taste among the sheeps.

here's a good exemple of most black metallers on this board:

can also be replaced by Emperor, Burzum or Darkthrone t-shirt.

 

[Ender Rises]

Point being? I seriously doubt any of us wear corpse paint except to a concert, and even then only something like Wacken.

 

[skeptik]

Sorry for having taste among the sheeps.

here's a good exemple of most black metallers on this board:

can also be replaced by Emperor, Burzum or Darkthrone t-shirt.

Shut the fuck up and get over yourself you obnoxious twat.

 

[Mort Divine]

Sorry for having taste among the sheeps.

here's a good exemple of most black metallers on this board:

can also be replaced by Emperor, Burzum or Darkthrone t-shirt.

Self-righteous fool.

 

[unknown]

I thought I got rid of that pic of myself

 

[Evil?]

The Teddy Bear in the background is the best part.

 

[unknown]

"MOM! Take a picture of me before you drop me off at the Dimmu Borgir show! DIM-MU BOR-GEER. And make sure you drop me off a block away from the venue. Yeah. Hang on let me get my grim face on."