Death Sentences etc.

I mostly agree with Necuratul, even if the proposed overhaul would be nigh impossible to realize in the current stagnated social climate. The judicial systems in most (western) societies are still ridiculously archaic and seem to emphasize punishment and vengeance over rehabilitation when the latter clearly benefits society a lot more. Though before I continue my post I will say that I feel this applies in a much lesser extent to the extreme cases (the ones that would be eligable for death penalty) and much more to the hordes of people that are imprisoned every year for more common and less severe crimes. I think the extreme cases often involve individuals who are too dangerous and unpredictable to apply this strategy to (though that is just my layman's opinion since I am obviously neither a judicial expert nor a psychologist).

Extreme cases aside though, you have to stand in awe of just how ridiculously ineffective modern day prison systems are. For the sake of familiarity I'll supply some statistics from my home country of the Netherlands. In the period between 1997 and 2002, 73% of convicted criminals had another brush with the law within the next 6 years (source in Dutch, directly from the Dutch ministry of justice). In other words literally 3 out of 4 people that are imprisoned in the Netherlands just go on to commit more crimes afterwards. Why is that? Because they aren't being taught anything. They aren't taught discipline, they aren't given a moral compass, they aren't taught useful skills (social and practical) to help them reintegrate into society. They're mostly just locked up because they did something bad until they've done their time and then they are sent on their merry way back into society. And it is naively assumed that this alone will teach someone a lesson and deter them from doing it again when statistics have shown time and again that it simply isn't the case.

Punishment is not a sufficient deterrent for crime because most crimes are being committed by people who are either under the assumption that they are going to get away with it (which statistically for most crimes is not that unreasonable if you aren't an idiot) or they are crimes of passion where a person is so overcome with powerful emotion (i.e. anger) that a rational weighing of risk versus benefit never even enters into the equation.

Prison systems should be a service to society as a whole and not just act as a means of personal vindication for the victim. Which when all they are doing is attacking the symptoms rather than dealing with the root cause (i.e. lack of discipline/upbringing/morals/education of the person involved) is exactly what they are. Why not just go back to vigilantism if that is all we want? Sure as hell is a lot cheaper and equally (in)effective.
 
Sure, that works... except for murder. Nobody who kills another person is going to give a damn about consequences, or if they are it isn't going to stop them.

AchrisK, it simply is not true that the death penalty works as a deterrent. It is not something that can be argued.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=2374

That may be true of the current death penalty in the current system. But I believe that if our society (the USA) had always had much less tolerance for crime, and swifter, more fitting consequences for crime, that crime would be lower. There is no escaping the logic that consequences change people's behaviour, and it seems to me that a model which effectively utilizes that idea could be better than what we have now.

In most cases, murderers are not normal citizens which all of a sudden decide to kill people. People have been allowed to live lives of crime, and maybe drugs, and likely themselves been victims of all kinds of atrocities. The whole cycle needs to be dealth with if any system is to work.

I think rehabilitation is a great idea, but again, our current system makes it hard to effectively implement. I mean, the society in prison among inmates is pretty horrible and adds to the problems of those in prison. Even the guards and wardens and whatnot are typically very uncaring and regard the prisoners as unworthy of human decency. My brother-in-law was issued size 9 shoes, and he is size 11. How can a human become so cold as to treat another human that way?

Of course this system will have to involve the courts, since most actions cannot be necessarily judged solely on the outcome.

This is such a daunting issue, and I think it is because of the nature of man. Anyone who says man is basically good is blind. The selfish, proud, lazy, greedy nature of man will throw flaws into any correctional, political or social system that anyone ever tries to set up.
 
AchrisK said:
Even the guards and wardens and whatnot are typically very uncaring and regard the prisoners as unworthy of human decency. My brother-in-law was issued size 9 shoes, and he is size 11. How can a human become so cold as to treat another human that way?

lolwut
 
A, don't forget that we live in a humane and civil society that believes in 'basic human rights.' This ain't Hammurabi.
 
^Yeah, and that just adds to the problem. Don't get me wrong, I prefer freedom, but there are too many free people who make bad choices.

There is no way to have a free society without problems. There are huge problems with a society of people who are not given freedom. It's hopeless, really.
 
And don't you think that a society based on freedom will have major, contentious issues in the areas in which you mean to take away parts of their freedom?
 
I'm speaking in absolutes here (and it's 6am, I have one hour to go before I finish work here on my nighshift so can't be stuffed elaborating further), but if one commits a serious negative act, then there should be a consequence. Even more so if the act involves rape or murder, then an example for society needs to be set, and pat-on-the-back sentences aren't going to do it. On the other hand though, I almost partially empathise with Nec - we are supposed to be a democratic society, and an absolutist justice system is not in line with our moral system.

The big question really is this: is it about time we toughened the hell up?
 
There is a very clear division on both sides of the fence - so clearly many people feel it is a light pat on the back/slap on the wrist. Consider, this is taking someone's life we're talking about, or a horrendous sex crime which has killed or psychologically damaged forever a totally innocent woman, man or child. Think of the victims.
 
There is a very clear division on both sides of the fence - so clearly many people feel it is a light pat on the back/slap on the wrist. Consider, this is taking someone's life we're talking about, or a horrendous sex crime which has killed or psychologically damaged forever a totally innocent woman, man or child. Think of the victims.

Being a victim of a crime doesn't give you any rights over the rights of others.

Why are executions more expensive? They shouldn't be. If it is determined to be necessary, it should be done quickly and inexpensively.

It's expensive due to trials and things of that nature. Because, you know, putting a man to death is kind of a big deal, and it's preferred that if you are going to kill somebody that you are entirely sure that he actually did what you're killing him for.
 
Being a victim of a crime doesn't give you any rights over the rights of others.

No it doesn't. But being a victim of a crime gives you the right to see a fair punishment delivered by a justice system the victim should be able to put their faith in. Victims of crime often become victims of a very flawed justice system too don't forget.

Have you ever known someone who has been raped? Ever known someone whose family member has been murdered, a sibling of their's, a child? The effect on the victim, their family and friends, is terrible, utterly indescribable pain that you or I cannot fathom.

Yes, it's emotivist shit, but the effects of these crimes are not just physical. They destroy lives beyond those directly effected.
 
And killing the person that did it doesn't change anything. The victim should IN NO WAY have any power whatsoever over what happens to the criminal because they couldn't possibly measure an objective penalty. Being a victim doesn't give you a right to see to it that somebody is punished. In fact, it doesn't give you any rights at all. The criminal is punished because he did something wrong, not because the victim wants to see him punished.