Elementary school shooting

[Uros]

And I always have my .40 on me at all times, but I do have my CWP.

too many unsatisfied customers maybe?

 

[Jind]

Like Phil said, just becuase he is a member, doesn't mean he supports everything they do or every position they have. I can say I am not an NRA supporter or member, I do believe that there should be a group that fights for teh right s of ownership like the NRA used to do, but as of late they don;t have the best interest of the people, more the gun cmanufactures. I can fully agree with you on that.

Sorry for getting a bit carried away though, I was upset with all the other posts, some people just have this mentality that all guns are bad, we should ban them and take them from everyone, and just let robbers and criminals and intruders do whatever they want if you want to defend yourself no matter the weapon used against you use your hands if you have to but don't fight let it happen because they might let you live. Every animal on this planet does not let others attack it without some form of defense, so the comments earlier about just letting criminals take your life into their hands really has me pissed off. If I have a say, I am going to fight for my life, I won't just let someone attack me and do nothing because some overly liberal group says let an attacker attack me and hope they may not severely attack or kill me. No not going to happen, I will defend myself anyway I see fit, I would rather die fighting, that live bowing a knee to someone else.

Then I have no argument with you as we probably see eye to eye - it's clear that the last thing we want is extreme voices on either side of any debate defining the rules and subjects debatable.

When it comes to lobbying it's always worth asking what they really are representing - is it the people or the industries surrounding the subject matter. There are certainly both good and bad with almost all lobbying efforts but they all bare scrutiny about what, and or who, they really represent.

Not sure if it tells us anything but an interesting factoid, Wayne LaPierre is the 6th most compensated executive at a "charitable organization" according to the American Institute of Philanthropy. The top three run cancer related foundations, the others are executives of the republican "think tank" The Heritage Foundation and The Boy Scouts of America. It's an interesting list in which Wayne sort of sticks out as the odd man out since the majority seem to be more what you think of as charitable organizations instead of outright corporate shills (I know I know- I'm being judgmental)

http://www.charitywatch.org/hottopics/Top25.html

 

[John_C]

Sorry for getting a bit carried away though, I was upset with all the other posts, some people just have this mentality that all guns are bad, we should ban them and take them from everyone, and just let robbers and criminals and intruders do whatever they want if you want to defend yourself no matter the weapon used against you use your hands if you have to but don't fight let it happen because they might let you live. Every animal on this planet does not let others attack it without some form of defense, so the comments earlier about just letting criminals take your life into their hands really has me pissed off. If I have a say, I am going to fight for my life, I won't just let someone attack me and do nothing because some overly liberal group says let an attacker attack me and hope they may not severely attack or kill me. No not going to happen, I will defend myself anyway I see fit, I would rather die fighting, that live bowing a knee to someone else.

I like your dedication to self determination.

I have a very different perspective, which perhaps might be interesting to some:

I don't want to be armed. I don't want to be a potential threat to the people around me. I don't want to have the power to effortlessly kill people.

What I want to be is a physically fit and able person in a country where, given some sensible precautions, I don't need to be on guard to defend myself from aggressors with deadly weapons. I want the drunk outside the bar to punch me if I insult his mother, not stab me or shoot me.

Surely that's the ideal situation that we're all aiming for right?

If we agree on that, then we have to look at how to get closer to that situation.
Is it not a reasonable suggestion that drastically reducing the availability of firearms could form part of some progress on this?

Perhaps what i'm saying really isn't relevant to the US, but if it's not then that does paint a rather violent and grim picture of the state of american society, doesn't it? A large criminal underclass who are enough of a threat that normal people going about their daily lives feel the need to possess deadly weapons to protect themselves?

 

[JHA]

Sorry for getting a bit carried away though, I was upset with all the other posts

No comments on the videos I posted? I know why you are ignoring them. It can be suprising how powerful certain guns actually are. No need to get upset though.

 

[SocialNumb]

Wow, this thread won't stop. We get it. You don't like guns, now STFU.

I say we just shoot everyone under 25, problem solved. No more school shootings.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

I like your dedication to self determination.

I have a very different perspective, which perhaps might be interesting to some:

I don't want to be armed. I don't want to be a potential threat to the people around me. I don't want to have the power to effortlessly kill people.

What I want to be is a physically fit and able person in a country where, given some sensible precautions, I don't need to be on guard to defend myself from aggressors with deadly weapons. I want the drunk outside the bar to punch me if I insult his mother, not stab me or shoot me.

Surely that's the ideal situation that we're all aiming for right?

If we agree on that, then we have to look at how to get closer to that situation.
Is it not a reasonable suggestion that drastically reducing the availability of firearms could form part of some progress on this?

Perhaps what i'm saying really isn't relevant to the US, but if it's not then that does paint a rather violent and grim picture of the state of american society, doesn't it? A large criminal underclass who are enough of a threat that normal people going about their daily lives feel the need to possess deadly weapons to protect themselves?

Yup

 

[jipchen]

First of all, sorry for being a polemic bitch. I was real upset by the stupidity of the NRA conference and it got the better of me.. I should have cooled down first. So let's try and talk like rational people.

You have your head so far up your ass its not even remotely funny. I will provide a little interesting story however. When I was in school, the school district had one armed police officer at every school, high school, middle school, elementary school, during the first hour where everyone shows up and the last hour where ever yon leaves, they would have multiple officers, sometimes upwards to five or six. Yes they were armed with loaded handguns, pepper spray, night stick/baton and tazers with loaded shotguns waiting in the car and sometimes even k-9 units. Where those cops there to arrest and harass students? No, they were there to keep intruders off the property that hadn't been given clearance by the main office. For the most part, we the students never noticed the cops, they stood out in front at the gates and in the office, they didn't even go so far to stop students who were leaving campus to ditch class. No one though ever dared to intrude on campus though, and my 6 years at that district never saw or heard an intruder code. The criminals were smart, the sex offenders would go down the street trying to kidnap girls or expose themselves, the gun violence of gangs from other schools always just outside the school, everyone around was too smart about doing something stupid anywhere near any of those schools.

So yea armed police is actually a smart thing, oh and the school did have a no guns policy, but cops were allowed in with their guns, school administration and district administration had no issues with that and for good reason, nothing bad ever happened there.

So what's that supposed to tell me now? You even said it yourself: Those were cops - you know, people trained to protect civilians, with at least some level of education, knowledge of law and jurisdiction, de-escalation and experience. The NRA wants random people, private security companies, ex-soldiers to stand there with armed guns. You remember the black kid that got shot for no reason other than being black by some militia retard? That's what comes out of handing idiots guns and giving them executive authority. You know, there's a reason why after thousands of years humanity finally realized division of powers is a good thing, and having a trained, deescalating police rather than armed rednecks patrolling their neighborhoods is a good idea. The NRA basically proposed to throw away civil rights that slowly and painfully developed over a period of decades. That's what upsets me.

I was also in a school that was in gang territory many many years back, and they had multiple school security on bikes, bright yellow shirts with security written on them and pepper spray. They were involved in all the riots that took place which I witnessed more than once. When you have students that are willing to throw punches and even knives at teachers and security, they need to make sure they have something to fight back with. Pepper spray to someone coming at you with a knife will stop them real quick. Right after I left that Jr. High, a kid was stabbed with a pencil in a fight. Around their the thugs liked using whatever sharp objects they could stab people with over guns, hell I had even been threatened to be stabbed with a scalpel. Without metal detectors at schools you have no clue which kid is going to pull out which weapon, or what intruder is going to come in to sexually assault or murder just for the fuck of it.

Okay that just proofed my point again. No cops but some private security company.. I mean come one, who works as a security guy? People that by chance happen to have the shirt saying "Security" but otherwise being pretty much exactly the same as the thugs they're "protecting" you from. And they obviously didn't even help. Do you happen to know the concept that aggression promotes aggression (no matter if active or passive)? Studies proof that more cops patrolling an area actually raise the crime rate, pushing harder (think of Mexiko and the favelas) and going in heavily armed provokes even more violence and crime than before. Treat people like criminals and they will react like criminals even if they wouldn't have thought of it before. Yes that's sad and stupid but that's how human psychology works.

I think you mistake me for someone thinking guns are the devil, the core problem. Of course they're not. But they amplify the problems, provoke violence and even very stupid people can handle them. It needs less courage/will/skill than e.g. going on a rampage with a knife, you "just" pull a trigger, shoot people from the distance, don't need to get up close, etc. Yes people would still flip out but there is a reason most (basically all) of these cases are shootings and no mass-stabbings.

Also don't try to convince people assault-rifles are less dangerous or at least similarly dangerous as some random pistol, that's just bullshit.

Sorry for getting a bit carried away though, I was upset with all the other posts, some people just have this mentality that all guns are bad, we should ban them and take them from everyone, and just let robbers and criminals and intruders do whatever they want if you want to defend yourself no matter the weapon used against you use your hands if you have to but don't fight let it happen because they might let you live.

If you're talking about me I'm not saying all guns are bad and should be banned. I think they're unnecessary, and stupid, but not that every weapon should immediately get banned. Still your argument doesn't work. Look at pretty much every other country, people don't have guns on them and they still don't get robbed and killed everyday. The fear of not being able to protect you and your loved ones is irrational, a gun in a critical situation will most probably even make things worse (see above, that's just how it is). How many people do you actually know that got threatened or robbed and then got out of the situation because they had a gun? Do you always have your gun with you? Because if not, the argument is invalid again. The gun is no use if someone really holds a gun to your head while you're in the subway and the gun is at home. Even if you had it in your pocket you still couldn't reach for it because the thug would probably shoot you the moment you made an unexpected move.
*sigh* But arguing about that is pointless because I think no matter what evidence you're presented you still wouldn't change your opinion.

Ftr, I also think all this paints a very sad picture of american society. We have no security or guards in schools at all over here, and still no stabbed or shot pupils or huge fights all the time - and same goes for most developed countries. I honestly can't even imagine schools as you described them.. A lot would need to be changed for the violence to diminish, if it is at all possible - but I think (and evidence supports it) that having less guns would be a start. See John_C's post.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

So what's that supposed to tell me now? You even said it yourself: Those were cops - you know, people trained to protect civilians, with at least some level of education, knowledge of law and jurisdiction, de-escalation and experience. The NRA wants random people, private security companies, ex-soldiers to stand there with armed guns. You remember the black kid that got shot for no reason other than being black by some militia retard? That's what comes out of handing idiots guns and giving them executive authority. You know, there's a reason why after thousands of years humanity finally realized division of powers is a good thing, and having a trained, deescalating police rather than armed rednecks patrolling their neighborhoods is a good idea. The NRA basically proposed to throw away civil rights that slowly and painfully developed over a period of decades. That's what upsets me.

From my experience all armed guards that are at certain schools are trained by police. And campus security that is trained by police and anti riot squads never carry lethal power on them. Having one armed cop and a few riot control trained security guards with less than lethal weaponry, then I am all for it.

Okay that just proofed my point again. No cops but some private security company.. I mean come one, who works as a security guy? People that by chance happen to have the shirt saying "Security" but otherwise being pretty much exactly the same as the thugs they're "protecting" you from. And they obviously didn't even help. Do you happen to know the concept that aggression promotes aggression (no matter if active or passive)? Studies proof that more cops patrolling an area actually raise the crime rate, pushing harder (think of Mexiko and the favelas) and going in heavily armed provokes even more violence and crime than before. Treat people like criminals and they will react like criminals even if they wouldn't have thought of it before. Yes that's sad and stupid but that's how human psychology works.

They were typical campus supervisors, that because of the area were trained by the city police and county swat in riot control. So no they weren't thugs, they did their best to make sure no unauthorized people are on campus and to break up fights. They were the first line of defense for the safety of other if the cops couldn't get there in time as the cop on duty wasn't always on campus.

And I get the treating people like criminals makes them such. That was the case in my high school, not by the cops, but more by the administration which always treated everyone like they were doing something they weren't supposed to, certain areas of campus you couldn't be at, couldn't use certain bathrooms, if you are just standing around and not doing anything there is something that you should have been doing. Oh not doing your work because your finished and just sitting quietly in your seat, you have some work you can find and do, oh the teach came around a corner and saw something they didn't like, make an assumption and your guilty until proven innocent, you barely get to tell your story before being accused of lying and no "trial" whatsoever. Because of that general treatment by the administration, not the security, I still get paranoid being around cops because I am afraid that I am in a place I am not allowed or that I am somehow doing something I am not aware of that will get me into trouble. I have to spend some time convincing myself that it was shitty teachers to blame and not me, or the local cops. Still for a lot of other students they did tend to rebel.

And again, it had nothing to do with the school security, they never bugged us unless they were telling us to go the office to get a tardy slip because we were late for class. They were there to spot and notify administration and law enforcement of intruders and to help spot and break up the occasional fight. I really don't see anything police state about that.

Also don't try to convince people assault-rifles are less dangerous or at least similarly dangerous as some random pistol, that's just bullshit.

This was a great video I managed to see this morning, the thing is everyone against guns thinks that because the media says assault riffle that these shootings are done by a fully automatic rifle, and as you can see from this video, the actual semi automatic rifles being used, don't shoot very fast unless being used by a skilled shooter, and IIRC, most mass shooters are new gun users, usually purchase their first gun for shooting, may take it out to practice once or twice.

Ftr, I also think all this paints a very sad picture of american society. We have no security or guards in schools at all over here, and still no stabbed or shot pupils or huge fights all the time - and same goes for most developed countries. I honestly can't even imagine schools as you described them.. A lot would need to be changed for the violence to diminish, if it is at all possible - but I think (and evidence supports it) that having less guns would be a start. See John_C's post.

Didn't I say before that all American studies have been inconclusive as to the effectiveness of gun laws and the availability of guns. As laws get more strict or more loose, crime doesn't go up or down. Violence stays the same, and this country has had guns for over 236 years and our wealth and crime rates were some of the best ever seen on the planet, this spike of violence has only been a new thing and no study or statistic has truly showed that relative to our history, that an increase in guns has really caused the new spike of crime. But again let me say this again, our violent crime rate has dropped in half the past 20 years and is still dropping.

There are bigger problems causing a pissed off, frustrated and more mentally unstable youth these days, and its not movies, video games, guns, or music, its more how children these days are raised, how lazy our school systems are to tackle the larger issues and treat them like humans and not criminals, parents that actually give their children love and affection, but be strict with them teaching them right from wrong. Bigger yet outside out society falling apart we all need to become more active politically to stop the corruption that our country as a whole has seen on capital hill. Lazy parents, teachers, pissed off youth has bread much more than shitty younger generations, but out political turmoils as well.

 

[jipchen]

From my experience all armed guards that are at certain schools are trained by police. And campus security that is trained by police and anti riot squads never carry lethal power on them. Having one armed cop and a few riot control trained security guards with less than lethal weaponry, then I am all for it.

Sounds fairly reasonable, if it's really necessary. Not what the NRA proposed, though.
As mentioned earlier I still don't like the idea of giving people powers that clearly belong to the executive authorities. There are enough examples of campus security abusing their power and overstepping their given rights.

And I get the treating people like criminals makes them such. That was the case in my high school, not by the cops, but more by the administration which always treated everyone like they were doing something they weren't supposed to, certain areas of campus you couldn't be at, couldn't use certain bathrooms, if you are just standing around and not doing anything there is something that you should have been doing. Oh not doing your work because your finished and just sitting quietly in your seat, you have some work you can find and do, oh the teach came around a corner and saw something they didn't like, make an assumption and your guilty until proven innocent, you barely get to tell your story before being accused of lying and no "trial" whatsoever. Because of that general treatment by the administration, not the security, I still get paranoid being around cops because I am afraid that I am in a place I am not allowed or that I am somehow doing something I am not aware of that will get me into trouble. I have to spend some time convincing myself that it was shitty teachers to blame and not me, or the local cops. Still for a lot of other students they did tend to rebel.

And again, it had nothing to do with the school security, they never bugged us unless they were telling us to go the office to get a tardy slip because we were late for class. They were there to spot and notify administration and law enforcement of intruders and to help spot and break up the occasional fight. I really don't see anything police state about that.

I get that perhaps a friendlier administration would at the same time change the way campus security treats pupils and how they feel on campus, but imho it's simply the presence of armed security that creates an atmosphere like you described it, not only the administration. Don't you think they would have acted different if there were no armed people carrying out what they said / scaring pupils? Or that the pupils would have reacted differently if they weren't watched as if they're suspicious? (no rhetorical question, I really don't know.. but I strongly suspect so)

This was a great video I managed to see this morning, the thing is everyone against guns thinks that because the media says assault riffle that these shootings are done by a fully automatic rifle, and as you can see from this video, the actual semi automatic rifles being used, don't shoot very fast unless being used by a skilled shooter, and IIRC, most mass shooters are new gun users, usually purchase their first gun for shooting, may take it out to practice once or twice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yATeti5GmI8

I know how assault rifles work, thank you. I also know fully automatics aren't allowed (rightly so) and what weapons the shooters carried. The thing is, I also know how a gunshot affects the human body (I worked as an EMT, and because of the former also know a lot of police officers). A 5.56x45mm cartridge fired with an AR15 and a 9x19mm bullet from a pistol like the H&K P7 have drastically different effects. There is a reason why police use a G36 and not their P7 to kill an injured deer or a raging bull etc. if necessary. The velocity and energy of a rifle bullet is just multiple times higher.. but I don't think I have to tell you.
Btw are .45 bullets allowed in he US for civilians?

There are bigger problems causing a pissed off, frustrated and more mentally unstable youth these days, and its not movies, video games, guns, or music, its more how children these days are raised, how lazy our school systems are to tackle the larger issues and treat them like humans and not criminals, parents that actually give their children love and affection, but be strict with them teaching them right from wrong. Bigger yet outside out society falling apart we all need to become more active politically to stop the corruption that our country as a whole has seen on capital hill. Lazy parents, teachers, pissed off youth has bread much more than shitty younger generations, but out political turmoils as well.

Well, at least something we agree on.

 

[PhilTheBeard]

Yes .45 and 50 caliber rounds are legal for US citizens to use.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Guys, you don't get it.

This is ok:

And this is not:

This is also ok:

But this is not:

This is also fine:

This is not:

Seriously how can you argue with such brilliant logic?

 

[JeffTD]

I'm with Loren - I don't understand what the argument is about. Situations that would benefit from having a rifle vs a handgun don't involve needing fully automatic weapons. You don't need a fully auto AR15 (or similar) to hunt, and the only time it would be more effective than a handgun at defending yourself is if you're up against 10+ armed targets or the US military; you'll never realistically be in a situation like the first and you'll die with or without an assault rifle in the second.

 

[egan.]

Honestly Loren I know you're smarter than that. The issue is that many semi-automatic incarnations of automatic weapons can easily and inexpensively be modified to be automatic.
http://www.hackcanada.com/ice3/misc/ak47mod.txt
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140191

Note I'm not taking a position but pointing out the fact that the issue with the semi-auto versions of automatic weapons is easy conversion back to full auto and not simply the size and lethality of their rounds. I haven't seen many people put tactical shotguns on the table.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Jeff and Egan...

You know those first 2 guns are the same guns right? The shotguns are the same as well.

And the last 2 are different... the remmington (wood stock) fires 30-06 where the bushmaster fires .223


Bump fire stocks are stupid, and "fully automatic" guns are already illegal. So when some moron says "what do you need an asault rifle for" all I can think is "what the fuck are you talking about?"

People hunt with AR15 firearms.

 

[egan.]

J
Bump fire stocks are stupid, and "fully automatic" guns are already illegal. So when some moron says "what do you need an asault rifle for" all I can think is "what the fuck are you talking about?"

People hunt with AR15 firearms.

I know what you're saying but claiming an AR-15 is the same as other 5.56 round weapons is a misnomer too because you can easily buy conversion kits at gun shows. I get that the media likes to show matte black weapons next to wood stocks to demonstrate what's for hunting and whats for murder but in some instances there is actually a legitimate argument to be made.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Wait, what conversion kits can you leagally buy that turns a gun from semi automatic to full auto death machine?

Someone said you can buy armor piercing rounds as well, I would like to know where that can be bought to please.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

And making an automatic firearm from a semi is super illeagal as well unless you hold a ffl for it. (Lots o money, lots of regulations)

 

[Fox Mulder]

Democracy! A citizen has the right to defend him/herself.

 

[Skinny Viking]

glad you all solved it

 

[JHA]

RK 62 assault rifle:​

AK 47 assault rifle:​

Glock semi-automatic handgun:​