Elementary school shooting

[John_C]

Seeing as there's all this gun control talk happening again, I thought i might share a chart I made:

The chart includes European countries with GDP per capita (PPP) over $20,000 and the US and Canada.

 

[SocialNumb]

@drew

Cool, I'll check out Top Boy. It's on Netflix! I'm watching Ultimate Force at the moment. It's OK.

Never heard of Homeland and it's not on Netflix.

Seriously, Melissa Clarke is fucking hot.

Ok back to dead kids and gun control.

 

[Mutant]

IDK if you know, but there are way more active and passive defensive gun uses every year in the USA than gun homicides.

A gun is a tool which main purpose is effective self defense, not going on a bloody rampage.

@JohnC chart:
Finland 2 times less guns owned by citizens, but six times less gun deaths than in USA.
Also i wonder how many more % of knife and blunt object and bare hands homicides are in countries in which people don't have as many guns as in USA - i only know that here in Poland people kill each other most often by beating them to death.
Of course to the murder victim it doesn't matter much what tool was used to kill him if only the death was not very slow and painful.
And it is obvious that if you want to kill someone, you will choose the best tool available.

If you want to compare areas and gun laws, you can't compare different countries because there are too many different variables - you need to compare the exact same area during the time of very strict gun ban versus the exact same area when guns were easier to get.

 

[John_C]

If you want to compare areas and gun laws, you can't compare different countries because there are too many different variables - you need to compare the exact same area during the time of very strict gun ban versus the exact same area when guns were easier to get.

That would also be flawed, seeing as a significant change in legislation would affect attitudes, as well as the inherent changes that come with the passing of time.

All I'm pointing out, is that if you have lots of guns, you're more likely to kill people with them.

 

[Mutant]

All I'm pointing out, is that if you have lots of guns, you're more likely to kill people with them.

Of course.

Just like there will be far more axe violence in the countryside where they use axes to chop firewood, than in cities where people just don't need to have an axe in their appartments...

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/60860_484853881567285_1725378644_n.jpg

Also, in the second amendment, it states for a well regulated militia, and back then they were talking about SINGLE SHOT bore rifles. Not fully/semi automatic weapons with explosive armour piercing rounds being in the hands of the citizenry.

I highly doubt they would've ruled the same way if they'd of known how much more damage modern weapons can cause.

I would argue that you are incorrect. We had better firearms than the british in the rev war.

I also want to know where the hell you buy armour piercing rouds.

 

[John_C]

Of course.

Just like there will be far more axe violence in the countryside where they use axes to chop firewood, than in cities where people just don't need to have an axe in their appartments...

No, you misunderstand me.
See this:

The US has a significant homicide problem, which appears to have a strong link to the number of guns they have lying around.

To be honest, looking at this data, i'd say the statistical argument isn't complete, but there's still this question:

Why the fuck do americans like to kill each other so much? Is it because they're more often armed, and therefore more easily able to kill? Is it because they have a segregated rich/poor racially divided society in large parts of their major cities? A culture of individualism that encourages a lack of care in those already predisposed to it? There's clearly something very wrong.

Any americans care to postulate a reason?

 

[SocialNumb]

It's the Damn Christians.

Apparently we love to kill people in other countries too. IDK what the fuck is wrong here.

 

[Mutant]

Why the fuck do americans like to kill each other so much? Is it because they're more often armed, and therefore more easily able to kill? Is it because they have a segregated rich/poor racially divided society in large parts of their major cities? A culture of individualism that encourages a lack of care in those already predisposed to it? There's clearly something very wrong.

Yes.
Killing someone requires a total lack of empathy for him and his family.
It is easier to not empathise with people we regard as "alien" to our culture, race, social and financial status.

The more a nation feels truly like "one" (it happens when something really bad happens like 9/11 for example), the less violent crime there will be for some time.

In Poland it was the times of forced on us communism - it was us majority of people united against the alien communist party and government backed by USSR and the crime rate was really low back then.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

The US has a significant homicide problem, which appears to have a strong link to the number of guns they have lying around.

To be honest, looking at this data, i'd say the statistical argument isn't complete, but there's still this question:

Why the fuck do americans like to kill each other so much? Is it because they're more often armed, and therefore more easily able to kill? Is it because they have a segregated rich/poor racially divided society in large parts of their major cities? A culture of individualism that encourages a lack of care in those already predisposed to it? There's clearly something very wrong.

Any americans care to postulate a reason?

I can postulate that if you weren't born, spent most of your life or all of your life in the US, then you have no clue about American culture. Having friends from the US, spending some time in the US, American TC shows, movies, and news doesn't truly equate to a true understanding of the culture.

See the chart that you have posted with additional notes is an anomaly, because if you looked at other charts, other statistics, the populace killing people with guns or any other weapon is a very small few. They aren't mass shootings, targeting random innocent people. Most violent crimes are related to gang activity, poor, low income minorities. But also, out violence has nothing to do with the availability of guns. Our culture, our society is so withered and broken that we are breading very contempt people and making the mentally ill even more unstable.

The biggest culprit to this is parents and the school system. Parents act like their child can do no wrong, and let them do whatever the fuck they want, they grow up with no respect for others. The schools treat children like that are prisoners, guilty until proven innocent and even if you haven't done anything wrong, you are always "suspicious". Kids are held down to very strict rules that psychologically dehumanize them, they rebel as kids that act out, sex, drugs, violence. Some grow out of it, but and increasing number over they years don't.

The "village", the system has almost purposely raised criminals, pissed off at the world and wanting vengeance. The minorities are right there as well, so self absorbed to feel entitled for not only equality, but vengeance. Adding gasoline to the fire, when you have an economy that can't cater a job market to the younger generation, when most still live with their parents or in poverty, dealing drugs and whatever shady activities to make a living, you are asking for disaster.

Gun laws is the easy cop out to hop that it will fix the issue of violence, but guns aren't the reason of violence. To truly stop the trend you have to attack to root of the problem, not try to cover up the symptoms.

 

[jangoux]

We do not know the mental disorder of this kid. It's being reported he was slightly autistic, that's hardly cause for alarm

Did I misread that? I mean, of course IT IS cause for alarm. Someone with mental or behavior disorder should be seen with special care and education. Even if it is a 'simple' depression, it should be cause for alarm.

I hope you never have kids, honestly.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

It's easy here to get guns. You can go to any inner city in America and have one in minutes. Gun laws will never stop that because it doesn't stop it now.

I would LOVE to see a scrawny 20 year old white kid go into the ghetto, just rolling up to groups of thugs asking if he can buy a piece

The point that I feel I never see emphasized enough in mass shootings such as this and Aurora, CO, is that while pro-gun people go on and on about how criminals will obtain guns no matter what, and all GC laws do is disarm innocents, I think it's safe to say that the line between criminal and innocent is a pretty goddamn fuzzy one, and I have no trouble believing that the availability of guns enables unstable, otherwise law-abiding people to easily and relatively quickly act on their psychotic impulses, with brutal and tragic consequences.

And if there's one word that defines suburban 20-somethings (takes one to know one), it's impulsive - everyone has their angry urges, but if we essentially dangle the means to swiftly and savagely act on those urges right in front of people's noses, I feel the more unstable among us, after having one too many bad days, would be more likely to snap and "just fucking do it," rather than realizing how much of an effort it would be to score guns (if they were illegal), reconsidering, and going back to alcoholism and misery (and everyone lived happily ever after).

In other words, I believe that widespread availability creates temptation, and temptation is something Americans are very very bad at resisting

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Any sort of mental health anomaly is cause for concern and should be checked out as soon as possible.

It was confirmed by a woman that knew the mother and the killer, saying that he had Asperger's. Maybe he had more going on with him if the mother didn't make much of an effort to get him help.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

Yes.
Killing someone requires a total lack of empathy for him and his family.
It is easier to not empathise with people we regard as "alien" to our culture, race, social and financial status.

The more a nation feels truly like "one" (it happens when something really bad happens like 9/11 for example), the less violent crime there will be for some time.

In Poland it was the times of forced on us communism - it was us majority of people united against the alien communist party and government backed by USSR and the crime rate was really low back then.

I see why you'd feel this way from your own experience in Poland, but I would wager that the top 4 motives for murder in this country (in no order) are a) domestic/marital/family issues, b) organized crime c) psychotic nutcases, d) robberies/home invasions/etc., so I don't think there's as much (relatively speaking) as class- or racially-motivated killings

 

[John_C]

I see why you'd feel this way from your own experience in Poland, but I would wager that the top 4 motives for murder in this country (in no order) are a) domestic/marital/family issues, b) organized crime c) psychotic nutcases, d) robberies/home invasions/etc., so I don't think there's as much (relatively speaking) as class- or racially-motivated killings

Similar here in the UK.

However, when I said rich/poor racial divide causing an increased homicide rate, I wasn't really referring to class or racially motivated killing, more just as an underlying factor to many social problems that themselves cause more murders, so I think Mutant missed my point a bit.

 

[Mutant]

I see why you'd feel this way from your own experience in Poland, but I would wager that the top 4 motives for murder in this country (in no order) are a) domestic/marital/family issues, b) organized crime c) psychotic nutcases, d) robberies/home invasions/etc., so I don't think there's as much (relatively speaking) as class- or racially-motivated killings

I wasn't talking about motives, but about the lack of the anti-killing safety mechanism which empathy naturally is.

Basically because it is way easier to empathise with your kind, it is way harder for you to kill someone like you than to kill someone (or something in case of animals or plants) totally different from you.

I don't kill or hurt people, because i can put myself in their shoes and i can imagine how their families would feel if their beloved son or daughter got killed by me.

Empathy.

But i theoretically could kill someone that is so alien and so evil from my perspective that his pain and his familys pain would be of no importance to me (Hitler, Stalin etc - no empathy for such kind from me).

 

[drew_drummer]

I don't kill or hurt people, because i can put myself in their shoes and i can imagine how their families would feel if their beloved son or daughter got killed by me.

Empathy.

I don't kill or hurt people because I don't have an extreme compulsion to do so. Empathy comes into it for sure, but it isn't the whole story. There are some people who feel a massive compulsion to cause harm - these people shouldn't get guns. They should get psychiatric treatment; preferably existential psychiatry and not just drugs and a slap on the back.

 

[mva801]

It's not about gun laws IMO

I think proper education ( not in schools, at home) is key.

We've also had kids killing people, either with knives, guns, whatever. And no, games, music, or whatever reason is not the problem. The problem is at their homes.

If a child sees things everyday as a "normal" thing to them, they won't see them as something to be careful with. If my son sees me getting blasted with a bottle of bourbon everyday, possibilities of him being curious about it grow.

And it's not a EU or US problem. It's a worldwide thing.

Obviously it's just my opinion.

WE HAVE A WINNER. I think MUCH more of an emphasis needs to be put on the home/ parenting environment of children. Something in this society has been fostering mass murdering fuckheads for quite some time. It's not video games or guns, it's the mindset of our fucking generation and they just happen to have access to tools that allow them to cause more damage. The mall shooting in Oregon was with stolen guns. This assole stole his mom's guns. If someone wants to do something crazy, they'll do it.

However, if banning guns in this country would have saved the lives of 20 innocent elementary school children, you bet your fucking ass I would turn mine in in a heartbeat if it could turn back the clock. It can't. So now we're left to wonder how we can prevent this shit in the future. Every god damn time I turn on the news lately something heinous is happening.

I can honestly say - and this is coming from a gun owner, enthusiast, and concealed weapon permit holder - that I don't even fucking want my guns anymore. I'm over it. I don't know how much if any gun control is in order or how much it will help, but as a nation I think we need to take a serious fucking look at the societal, parental, and firearm factors of all these MANY mass shootings and try to fucking do something about it.

20 little kids being shot while they should have been read a story just makes me fucking ill.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

to save myself some typing I'll just copy my FB post to here:







While this "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"-argument seems very valid at the first glance, it doesn't hold much of its value if you look a bit deeper.
don't get me wrong, I'm not even against guns, I just think that most of the typical arguments of the pro-gun people are a bit stupid, or at least not really thought through....
It's quite easy to test this argument by just having a look at how things work in Europe (where guns are illegal...well, or let's say the possession is highly regulated)...
"if guns are illegal, criminals will still have guns"...well, that's true to a degree...the russian mafia etc still have guns (I guess), but those aren't the ones involved in any shootings, they aren't even involved in any muggings, rapings, burglaries etc...not directly I mean.
So the (armed) criminal organisations are not a direct threat to any citizen.

there is an entirely different kind of criminal that IS a threat to the public though....rapists, burglars, thieves, muggers, coked out adrenaline junkies, small time drug dealers, people with poor education, low self esteem and mental issues...
Those people, although criminals, do not have guns in Germany (just using Germany as an example, cause I live here)....I do know people who have been robbed, mugged, got involved in fights etc, but I don't know a single person who ever got threatened with a gun during those occasions...or even had to fear that the criminal owned a gun..
Yes, those people are criminals, but they still don't own guns (which proves the initial argument wrong)...cause for criminals it's much more difficult to get a gun as well, and they don't even have the need to get one, cause since none of their victims has a gun, they don't need one either...being the aggressor puts them in the superior position already.

It really is like that, if you get into trouble with criminals over here, it won't be the organized bigtime crime (mafia etc), it'll be the dickhead in the streets trying to mug you, kinda the same guy that does those sort of things in the USA or anywhere else...but he won't have a gun (although he's a criminal, see above).

a very shallow and short sighted argument would now be "yes, but if I have a gun, I could defend myself against said mugger"...
let's think this scenario through...if the citizens were carrying firearms to defend themselves, being the aggressor wouldn't be enough for the mugger anymore, he'd have to start carrying guns as well, and he would....
so instead of having a good citizen and a dickhead, both without guns, we have the same situation, but with both people being armed...
now what does that mean?
well, let's move to the next big pro gun argument for that: "guns don't kill people, people kill people"...well, that's right, but who do you think is more likely to use that gun to kill a person?
you as a law abiding citizen with good morals, or the coked out crack head trying to mug you?
well, I can tell you, the person who'll shoot first will be the person with fewer scruples...and you can be pretty sure that that'll be the mugger.

"if guns are illegal, only the criminals will have guns" IS JUST NOT TRUE, at least not the ones that affect you directly.
Also not the ones that just have a brain fart, grab a pistol and shoot kids in a school.
Yes, the big organised criminal organisations are possessing guns...the person who'll break into your home or thinks about shooting kids in a school DOES NOT.

those shooters who're killing people in schools are the same kind of idiots that exist in every country, and I really don't think that the guns are the problem, those people are...
but those people usually don't "plan a crime" like the fucktard in Norway did, it's more often than not something short circuiting in their head, and it's much more likely that a brain fart like that results in deaths, if "guns are lying around everywhere for everyone to grab" (I know, I'm exaggerating).
Those shooters are usually not involved in the criminal scene, they are usually miserable outsiders with poor social structure, usually those people don't even have the contacts to even know where they could get a gun over here.
As I said, I'm not "contra gun", and there are problems either way, but "short circuit shootings" happen much less (if at all) in countries, where it's difficult or even impossible for those sicially isolated people to get a gun

Sorry for the long post, as I said, I'm not even against guns, I actually enjoy shooting, I'm fascinated with guns! I just can't hear the same stupid arguments anymore, that just show how closed minded and mentally limited some people are...and by showing that closed mindedness they're not really doing the pro-gun folks a favour.


The real problem is, that it's "too late" to change things that easily...
I strongly believe that I am right (well, I know I am) about the fact, that criminals over here don't own guns (the ones that affect me directly I mean, see rant above)...
BUT "if guns were illegal" can really be just a hypothetical discussion, cause making guns illegal in the USA will clearly not revert the (criminal) society back to the state it's in over here.
Making guns illegal NOW would indeed lead to an imbalance of gun ownership...in favour of the criminals.
so I do get your point, "making them illegal" is not a solution, definitely not an easy one....
is "everyone needs to buy more guns to defend themselves" a solution? defenitely not either..
do I have a solution? no
I was just trying to disarm ( ) that "if guns were illegal"- argument a little, or at least supply an outside point of view

 

[RichS]

Did I misread that? I mean, of course IT IS cause for alarm. Someone with mental or behavior disorder should be seen with special care and education. Even if it is a 'simple' depression, it should be cause for alarm.

I hope you never have kids, honestly.

So what do you suggest we do, arrest people before they commit a crime based on the fact we might think he's a danger? Do you not the think his mother protected him because of his problem?

Maybe in your world you would prefer the government take care of our kids now. And to say you hope I never have kids is insulting and way off topic.

To maintain the off topic slander you have started, I think you have a brain the size of a walnut.