Fuck The End Records (rant inside)

[Erik]

i dont think ali's actually getting upset at me using capital letters against him! ali's a jolly nice bloke but this whole "YEAH MAN WE ARE FACING A PARADIGM SHIFT IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY IN THIS WHOLE NEW INFORMATION AGE OF WEB 2.0" mentality is wearing really fucking thin.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

I'm not disagreeing with you, if you read above you'll find we have the same argument. We're just delivering it differently.

 

[unhinged]

oh will he now? i really hate all this fucking not-so-well-thought-out anti label sentiment that's becoming trendy lately.

i as an artist do NOT WANT DO HAVE TO DEAL WITH:

1) PRESSING CD'S
2) DISTRIBUTING CD'S
3) MARKETING CD'S
4) BUYING BUBBLE WRAP
5) BUYING STAMPS
6) BUYING ENVELOPES
7) PUTTING 1000'S OF CD'S IN JEWEL CASES AND INSERTING THE STUPID LITTLE FUCKING TRAY INLAY
8) SENDING MONEY
9) RECEIVING MONEY
10) EXCHANGING MONEY TO A CURRENCY I CAN USE
11) BEING DENIED THE EXCHANGE BECAUSE THE BILLS WERE RIPPED AND DIRTY OR INVALID
12) HAVING TO PAY SHITTY TAXES BECAUSE I'M RUNNING MY BAND AS A BUSINESS
13) DEALING WITH WHINING "CUSTOMERS" THAT DIDN'T RECEIVE THEIR SHIT
14) BOOKING SHOWS AND TOURS
15) do you want me to go on?

neither do I....we'll not talk about the taxes though
labels are necesary to an extent, I'd love to be able to just hand over the music and art and have someone to trust to deal with everythign else

.

artists write music. labels release it. labels are not evil, they fulfill a VERY REAL and VERY IMPORTANT PURPOSE, and should get PAID for it. the ARTIST does in 99% of the cases not want to deal with shitty, boring logistics and technicalities, the artist wants to make art.

mostly I agree with that
but a lot of labels are useless fucking parasites
its better to be DIY than to hand your art over to a fuckwit

 

[JayKeeley]

what do you think will be the consequences if everyone would do that (download an album, send $5 to the artist)? every label, the labels that WORKED FUCKING HARD to bring the albums to you (and subsequently, you basically tell them that they're doing nothing important and that only the artist deserves money --

I'm talking about redistributing the wealth. I don't see why any artist shouldn't be compensated for his efforts so that he can pay bills, a mortgage, car payments, kids schooling, etc. You know, all the shit that you're exempt from in your cosy life, dreading the day you might have to get a job and work for a living.

yeah great fucking work, i'm sure the artist getting a fiver to buy beer helps a whole fucking boatload with the LABEL recouping the STUDIO COSTS and other shit they invested into the release), would go out of business

Go out of business? Don't make me laugh. The profit they make doesn't even compare to the losses the artists has to live with.

Again, you might want to live on ramen noodles and ketchup for the rest of your life but you know, speak for youself mr self righteous "the world revolves around me and my beef jerky fetish".

 

[Erik]

but a lot of labels are useless fucking parasites
its better to be DIY than to hand your art over to a fuckwit

sure, but that's where common sense kicks in -- i.e. do not deal with fuckwits and they will go away, and the people who weren't smart enough to avoid dealing with fuckwits deserve what's coming to them.

 

[JayKeeley]

I'm not disagreeing with you, if you read above you'll find we have the same argument. We're just delivering it differently.

Mark, don't be an oompa. You're kissing his ass because he agreed with you.

 

[Erik]

I'm talking about redistributing the wealth. I don't see why any artist shouldn't be compensated for his efforts so that he can pay bills, a mortgage, car payments, kids schooling, etc. You know, all the shit that you're exempt from in your cosy life, dreading the day you might have to get a job and work for a living.

yeah your random personal insults are all well and good, but on to the actual argument: you're not "redistributing the wealth" or anything like that. you're not being robin fucking hood, you're being retarded and not realizing that ARTISTS want LABELS, and unless you SUPPORT the LABELS by PAYING FOR YOUR ALBUMS the way you're SUPPOSED TO, LABELS are going to GO AWAY and that's going to directly impact 1) the quality of music and 2) the availability of music to you.

if an artist is not happy with the way a certain label is treating them, he's PERFECTLY WELCOME to do his shit DIY or find a better label. it's all there in black and fucking white on the contract; you act as if you think labels are holding artists in shackles in their underground fucking dungeon of torture and feeding them breadcrumbs and soiled water bi-weekly, wednesdays 19:30. it's not like that. the artist and label have struck a deal together that both parties say work for them; you do not bypass that and send money to the artist.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

I could never ever be considered an ooompa.

Strangely enough, we wrote the same idea at the same time without seeing what each other wrote.

 

[JayKeeley]

yeah your random personal insults are all well and good, but on to the actual argument: you're not "redistributing the wealth" or anything like that. you're not being robin fucking hood, you're being retarded and not realizing that ARTISTS want LABELS, and unless you SUPPORT the LABELS by PAYING FOR YOUR ALBUMS the way you're SUPPOSED TO, LABELS are going to GO AWAY and that's going to directly impact 1) the quality of music and 2) the availability of music to you.

OK newsflash....people are buying their music on-line now (or they're stealing it). The need for physical medium is becoming less important, and as you said yourself, you rip your CDs to MP3 and put the CD away forever. So what was the fucking point of having the CD then?

You're hung up about distribution of records, tapes, and CDs. You're talking about running some kind of warehouse distribution center. I'm talking about making sure the artist gets more than $0.70 per album release.

 

[unhinged]

sure, but that's where common sense kicks in -- i.e. do not deal with fuckwits and they will go away, and the people who weren't smart enough to avoid dealing with fuckwits deserve what's coming to them.

I bet if you randomly picked 10 cds from your collection
at least 5 of those artists have been ripped off or fucked about by thier label

also studio costs in a recording contract generally come from either the artists pocket, or an advance from the label on the artists earnings
these costs are covered before the artist sees any royalties
so either way the band pays for the recording.

basically the label lends you money to make a product
you pay them back and they own it (copyright)

its like borrowing money to buy a house
you pay the morage off and the bank owns your house

I think thats wrong,

 

[Erik]

OK newsflash....people are buying their music on-line now (or they're stealing it). The need for physical medium is becoming less important, and as you said yourself, you rip your CDs to MP3 and put the CD away forever. So what was the fucking point of having the CD then?

to support the labels? AS I'VE SAID FIVE BILLION TIMES. also because i like the physical medium, but that's far from this discussion.

You're hung up about distribution of records, tapes, and CDs. You're talking about running some kind of warehouse distribuion center. I'm talking about making sure the artist gets more thsn $0.70 per album release.

read the second paragraph in my post above. i reiterate: if the artist is not happy with the terms of the deal he has with his label, WHY THE FUCK did he sign that deal in the first place, and WHO THE FUCK is saying that he can't just find another label that works for him? and if he can't, why doesn't he do it himself if he thinks it's so fucken possible? REWARD labels for their work and do not underestimate the intelligence of artists. they know VERY WELL what they're getting themselves into, they don't need you to send a fiver of pity money that should have gone to the people that did the ACTUAL WORK in bringing the cd to you.

 

[Erik]

I bet if you randomly picked 10 cds from your collection
at least 5 of those artists have been ripped off or fucked about by thier label

also studio costs in a recording contract generally come from either the artists pocket, or an advance from the label on the artists earnings
these costs are covered before the artist sees any royalties
so either way the band pays for the recording.

basically the label lends you money to make a product
you pay them back and they own it (copyright)

its like borrowing money to buy a house
you pay the morage off and the bank owns your house

I think thats wrong,

you have a point but for the sake of discussion i'm assuming that the label and the band both keep to what's stated in the contract. i mean if they're not, then that's where legal action comes into the picture.

and -- ok, fair enough, maybe quoting "studio costs" as one of the investments the label makes into a release was wrong in many cases -- but still my point stands that if the band doesn't like the terms then noone is forcing them to abide by them. they can sod off and do everything themselves then, if they think they'll be better off. in most cases, unless the label is comprised of 100% utter shitwanks, i don't.

 

[unhinged]

I'm not totally anti label by the way, and I do think they should be supported
the largest cut generally goes to the distributor
if the label is a big one then they are most probably the distributor too
......

oh and also, special packaging etc, any extra cost is absorbed by the artist

picture disks are seen as promotional items
the artist generally reieves nothing from these (not talking small indie here)

the list goes on

 

[JayKeeley]

you have a point

Read: Erik just got pwned.

but for the sake of discussion i'm assuming that the label and the band both keep to what's stated in the contract.

Yeah that happens all the time doesn't it!! Fucking la la land. Ever visit planet Earth lately?

i mean if they're not, then that's where legal action comes into the picture.

AND HOW MUCH IS THAT LITIGATION GOING TO COST THE ARTIST? Lawyers charge by the hour, fyi.

This isn't exactly going to end up on Judge fucking Judy is it?

 

[Erik]

Read: Erik just got pwned.

no, i didn't, i fared quite fucken well

why don't you respond to what i wrote to you instead of what i wrote to paul

Yeah that happens all the time doesn't it!! Fucking la la land. Ever visit planet Earth lately?

it does if you learn not to deal with idiots?

AND HOW MUCH IS THAT LITIGATION GOING TO COST THE ARTIST? Lawyers charge by the hour, fyi.

ok yeah sure maybe that's implausible in capitalist america but you know in sweden, we have a judicial system that actually serves justice and not the pockets of lawyers, sorry

 

[JayKeeley]

I'm not totally anti label by the way, and I do think they should be supported
the largest cut generally goes to the distributor
if the label is a big one then they are most probably the distributor too
......

oh and also, special packaging etc, any extra cost is absorbed by the artist

picture disks are seen as promotional items
the artist generally reieves nothing from these (not talking small indie here)

the list goes on

I buy CDs because I like the packaging, lyrics, artwork etc. I make an effort to take my CDs off the shelf and play them (even though I have an MP3 player).

However, there are times when I don't want to buy the CD, and perhaps just keep a few random songs or the album on MP3 format simply because it's not a "must have".

Put it down to having a fucken conscience or something, but I wouldn't mind rewarding the artist by compensating them somewhat (without the need for buying the CD).

That's how iTunes works now anyway. People buying random songs. I don't see why this is going to be restricted to the mainstream. It's just another channel to get your music legally without walking into a high street store or buying from a distro.

Meanwhile, people are downloading illegally anyway and never buying anything so everyone loses out. I'm suggesting a compromise knowing perfectly well people aren't going to buy CDs anymore.

 

[Erik]

I buy CDs because I like the packaging, lyrics, artwork etc. I make an effort to take my CDs off the shelf and play them (even though I have an MP3 player).

However, there are times when I don't want to buy the CD, and perhaps just keep a few random songs or the album on MP3 format simply because it's not a "must have".

Put it down to having a fucken conscience or something, but I wouldn't mind rewarding the artist by compensating them somewhat (without the need for buying the CD).

That's how iTunes works now anyway. People buying random songs. I don't see why this is going to be restricted to the mainstream. It's just another channel to get your music legally without walking into a high street store or buying from a distro.

Meanwhile, people are downloading illegally anyway and never buying anything so everyone loses out. I'm suggesting a compromise knowing perfectly well people aren't going to buy CDs anymore.

you know you can apply this to anything that's self released and i wouldn't care but when you start downloading cd's that a label put money into releasing without compensating them for it, that's where you go wrong

it's really very very simple and i doubt you would say to the face of, for example, the vendlus dude that comes here that "hey fuck you, i'm going to download this wolves in the throne room album and send them $5 because your work isn't worth shit!"

'cause that's what you're advocating

 

[JayKeeley]

why don't you respond to what i wrote to you instead of what i wrote to paul

I did through his post, and anyway, you've got your PMS strop of the month on anyway.

it does if you learn not to deal with idiots?

Jesus h christ man, people get ripped off all the time. It's gonna happen, and in all walks of life (from corporate accounting through to taxi drivers taking the long route).

You're not offering ANY protection to the artist whatsoever -- in fact, you're promoting the idea that the artist not get paid fairly.

ok yeah sure maybe that's implausible in capitalist america but you know in sweden, we have a judicial system that actually serves justice and not the pockets of lawyers, sorry

Yes because all artists live in sunny Sweden.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

Meanwhile, people are downloading illegally anyway and never buying anything so everyone loses out. I'm suggesting a compromise knowing perfectly well people aren't going to buy CDs anymore.

Only assholes like Dickschwitz, who D/L and don't buy ANYTHING.

There have been several studies that reflect people who D/L actually buy MORE, since they're able to better find & choose what they want to own, as opposed to being completely turned off by the whole process (i.e. from having bought too many "1-song albums" in the past, etc.).

Back to your flamewar.

 

[Krilons Resa]

TER only messed up ONCE out of like 40 something orders and fixed it right away for me.