Hardcore...yay or nay?

[ProphesizedDoom]

Originally posted by PaulTangaroa
okay people, explain this to me, why, within hardcore is there TWO genre splits? .. hardcore punk and hardcore metal? ..

No, hardcore is strictly rooted from Punk, not metal.

Also I'm sorry if I seem very imposing with my opinions, but the thing is I hear this everyday and am forced to disprove little hardcore fans that they are not metal everyday.

You know how annoying it is for me, a dedicated metal fan, to hear people say how metal Throwdown and Slipknot are? It's fucking ridiculous, so I take my defensive step in and use an offensive technique. "The best defense is to have a great offense."

Also I know all Hardcorer's aren't limited to my statement about them, but the sad thing is a majority of them are, and the ones who are ALWAYS without fail impose their belief's unto people who don't care. I've actually seen people get jumped for smoking (cigarettes) outside of venue's at a sXe show. Now how ridiculous is that? It's the militaristic hardcorer's I hate most.

Also I do find it offensive when someone calls something metal when it's not, why? Because I hate false impressions and assumptions on my life-style and favorite hobby. When people say "Slipknot is metal!" it's offensive. I usually can ignore it but you have to vent once in awhile, so I do what I do, properly put them back into their mallcore position. Below me.

 

[ProphesizedDoom]

A lessons difference on Hardcore and Death Metal Pits based on over 20 shows.

Hardcore pits (with HxCers only) aren't usually for fun, you usually have a group of 5-10 people ready to gang up on you if you accidentally hit them and they get hurt.

Death Metal pits (with DMers only) it's all just fun, you get hit so be it.

This is from my personaly experience, as a mosher.

 

[J.]

Originally posted by ProphesizedDoom
That's the thing Hardcore has NO roots in metal, so please refrain fromm being a complete dumbass.

Hardcore is a more extreme version of punk with break downs incorporated, so unless Punk is also metal, then hardcore isn't. Hardcore roots are in punk, and always have been. Asshole, get your facts straight before you spew more idiocy.

So your entire defense is that "Hardcore has Punk roots"? Laughable. You're placing an entire genre of METAL as non-metal simply because it originated from punk? By your rationale, metal is simply hard rock, since it is an extreme form of hard rock. Black Sabbath was simply an extreme form of blues. So I guess Black Sabbath is a blues band.

Go back to the fucking valley, kid.

 

[Messiah_May86]

dude slipknot is so metal tho......




joking, thats more something you'd hear from my ickle brother. but it shouldnt irratate you. I see it as this music makes me happy. music makes other people happy. in conclusion it doesnt matter what you listen from metal to rap or from indie to Britpop as long as it makes you happy.


now lets all join hands and sing kumbyah....see look at how at peace we all are

 

[PaulRawNerve]

fair enough, but can i just ask what makes you SUCH an authority on it all? as in, you seem to be saying "nobody argue with me cos i know i am right all the time" ..
i know no matter what you do or where you come from that i will have every bit as much authority as you to speak out on it ..

comments like this "Please, refrain from being stupid any further, one can only tolerate out-smarting you so many times." just, to me, prove why i or anyone else SHOULDNT take you serious, and just put you down as another arrogant person with opinions ..


i asked this
Originally posted by PaulTangaroa
okay people, explain this to me, why, within hardcore is there TWO genre splits? .. hardcore punk and hardcore metal? ..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you answered - "No, hardcore is strictly rooted from Punk, not metal. "

i know it is, but thats NOT what i asked .. i asked why is there two genre splits , hardcore PUNK and hardcore METAL!! and dont tell me there isnt because there is ..

so answer me that!? ..

 

[PaulRawNerve]

and dreamlord, once more you manage to make a quality post!!! .. you rule!!! \m/

 

[J.]

Originally posted by ProphesizedDoom
By Stoner Rock I'm taking you mean Sludgecore, which has Death Metal roots, idiot.

Again with the whole "roots" thing. Get over it. It's been disproved. Move on. Get new material.

Also Nuerosis isn't hardcore, they're too experimental to be, nor are they metal, I will argue that to the bitter end.

WHAT? But, but, but, Neaurosis' roots are in Hardcore, so they MUST be a hardcore band, because it's all in the roots, right? Fuckwad. Neurosis are, indeed, metal.

Today is the Day I haven't heard, but I'm almost sure you're wrong on them too considering half the stuff you come up with I've disproven.

If it makes you feel better, you can keep telling yourself that.

Mastodon is metal, and not hardcore. They're a progressive form of Metal, and they have absolutely no hardcore riffing style's in them, hence you're wrong again.

I weep for the future of metal if this is what they think. You know absolutely nothing. If Mastodon is metal, that makes Neurosis and Today is the Day metal. Same genre, same ROOTS!

Please, refrain from being stupid any further, one can only tolerate out-smarting you so many times.

Hilarity. Come back when you've read your metal history, boy.

 

[Nate The Great]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but this needs to be noted.

Venom claims they originated because of their love for PUNK bands and various "evil" writings, authors, etc.

Venom must be PUNK because they obviously have PUNK roots.

Motorhead also considers PUNK to be their biggest influence. This means Motorhead is a PUNK band because they have PUNK roots.

Hardcore bands might have originated from punk, but they have grown to incorporate everything metal is made of. If a band has a certain sound, that doesn't make them belond to that genre (unless they want to). Ulver must be a folk band, it that was the case. Ulver could also be a jazz band.

People that think hardcore can't be metal are ignorant and in need of some basic understanding of extreme music history.

BTW . . . Mastodon is DEFINITELY from a hardcore background. If you don't believe me, email them and find out for yourself. Same goes for Neurosis.

You may now continue while I read the rest of this thread . . .

 

[PaulRawNerve]

hey npearce, ALL of that post is absolutely spot on, hopefully that will tell the ones who are showing their ignorance to shut up!!
the point about motorhead, a band that everyone generally recognizes as metal, yet they sound like a punk band being honest (ie, integrity sound like a gnarlier motorhead, and yet its claims integrity are hardcore, yet are more metallic than motorhead!! go figure THAT one out!) ..

nice one mate, all of that is spot on ..

 

[PaulRawNerve]

and if there is STILL any doubt, then i will ask mastodon for myself when we play with them!!!!!!!!!

 

[nergal_S]

it dosent matter to me realy, i just dont like the hard core scene or the music what ever you chose to call it is up to you

 

[union9]

Originally posted by nergal_S
it dosent matter to me realy, i just dont like the hard core scene or the music what ever you chose to call it is up to you

Well shut the fuck up.You should've said that earlier and left it at that.
Is that a bird? Is it a plane? No.It's nergal falling from his soap box in a burning heap.
Fuck...i wish i could've come to this post more often than i have.I miss out on all the good arguments.hahahaha.

 

[ProphesizedDoom]

Originally posted by Dreamlord
So your entire defense is that "Hardcore has Punk roots"? Laughable. You're placing an entire genre of METAL as non-metal simply because it originated from punk? By your rationale, metal is simply hard rock, since it is an extreme form of hard rock. Black Sabbath was simply an extreme form of blues. So I guess Black Sabbath is a blues band.

Go back to the fucking valley, kid.

Please, stop your idiocy. I guess Nu-Metal is also metal? Please...

You have totally miscomprehended my logic.

To say what you're saying is ridiculous, I never said Hardcore was Punk, I just pointed out that Hardcore has different roots than Death Metal, which it is most closely related to.

Please, if you're in high school take reading comprehension, if you're in college take English 101, if you're out of college consider going back, and if you're a High School dropout go for a GED so you can learn reading comprehension.

(P)unk -------> (H)ardcore, does not mean that, (P)unk = (H)ardcore

Look, I even used simple 7th grade math logic to disprove you, how pathetic do you feel now? Idiocy.....

 

[ProphesizedDoom]

Originally posted by PaulTangaroa

i know it is, but thats NOT what i asked .. i asked why is there two genre splits , hardcore PUNK and hardcore METAL!! and dont tell me there isnt because there is ..

so answer me that!? ..

Ok, I'll explain it.

If I was in a hardcore band and said I "my influences are Cannibal Corpse, Devourment, Vader, Carcass, Throwdown, One King Down, and Sum 41".

Yet when you listened to my music you only heard the obvious influences from Throwdown and OKD, and maybe a stolen riff or two from CC and Carcass, would that make a metal band? The answer, no, now why does isn't it Metal?

Well to start off my band agrees, we're metal, but when you hear us we're obviously not, hence were not metal, though we might delude ourselves to think so.

"But we have Metal influences".... So? Many metal bands have classical influences, does that make them classical? Many Hip-Hop bands have Jaz influences that it make them so? The plain and simple answer due to logic is no.

"But what if we mix hardcore and metal?"

Then you've accomplished quite a feat, for I have yet to hear many bands do it. But let's say we have some really cool riffing that's metal, and some decent hardcore riff's, that would negate one of the genres of it. Hardcore typically by genre definition is Punk-like, but not Punk. It usually consists of break-downs, repeated riffing, and not-so-technical riffing either. (You're free to debate this, but trust me, when I can play hardcore on a guitar, it can't be al the great). Death Metal (the closest Metal sub-genre to Hardcore) usually consists of Fewer Break-Downs (if any) usually more technicality, more reliance on the Blast Beat, repeated riffing, but far less often, and longer song structures. Also lyrical content between the two genres is usually different. A hXc band tends to sing about what they feel in life, they tend to "vent" their emotions straight-foward. Death Metal tends to focus around a more nihilistic view, simply from gore-splattering lyrics, to lyrics of venting, just not the straight-foward way of hardcore, but rather a "read between the lines" form...

Also I see hXc as lacking one thing that metal has different, the "metal essence" so to say. Metal is a life-style, Hardcore is a life-style in a way, but not the same exact way as a Metal life-style. There are many similarities between Hardcore and some genre's of Metal I'll admit, but that does not mean in the least bit that Hardcore it Metal. By using that logic you can also appoint some Punk bands to be metal (The Punk/Thrash cross-over of the 80's can clearly point this out).

 

[ProphesizedDoom]

Originally posted by npearce
I haven't read this whole thread yet, but this needs to be noted.

Venom claims they originated because of their love for PUNK bands and various "evil" writings, authors, etc.

Venom must be PUNK because they obviously have PUNK roots.

Motorhead also considers PUNK to be their biggest influence. This means Motorhead is a PUNK band because they have PUNK roots.

Hardcore bands might have originated from punk, but they have grown to incorporate everything metal is made of. If a band has a certain sound, that doesn't make them belond to that genre (unless they want to). Ulver must be a folk band, it that was the case. Ulver could also be a jazz band.

People that think hardcore can't be metal are ignorant and in need of some basic understanding of extreme music history.

BTW . . . Mastodon is DEFINITELY from a hardcore background. If you don't believe me, email them and find out for yourself. Same goes for Neurosis.

You may now continue while I read the rest of this thread . . .

Please, learn reading comprehension. Refer to my response to Dreamlord for more information.

 

[ProphesizedDoom]

Originally posted by PaulTangaroa
fair enough, but can i just ask what makes you SUCH an authority on it all? as in, you seem to be saying "nobody argue with me cos i know i am right all the time" ..
i know no matter what you do or where you come from that i will have every bit as much authority as you to speak out on it ..

comments like this "Please, refrain from being stupid any further, one can only tolerate out-smarting you so many times." just, to me, prove why i or anyone else SHOULDNT take you serious, and just put you down as another arrogant person with opinions ..

I never said I had authority over anyone. You assumed that.

And I'm not right al the time, I just know on the particular subject of Hardcore not being Metal I am right.

And I know, that comment seems egotistic, but trust me, I've seen both sidesof this argument from an outside point of view before, and let me tell you, the Metallers saying Hardcore is not Metal always had the better point.

 

[xjailbaitx]

I still don't see how you metal kids could say emperically that metal is better then hardcore its(music) and subjective in nature.
some of the statments on this board are laughable and ignorant. barely any of you have even heard of what most "mature" hardcore fans consider good or maybe you have but you didn't state them in your responses. to who ever said today is the day isn't hardcore hahahaha whatever man. and someone said botch, converge and dillinger are "noisecore" bands sorry but ummm nope, dillinger is a straight up tech band, botch helped pioneer mathcore(yes botch has some odd guitar parts)think metalcore with odd time changes and signitures. And the thing about hardcore lyrics not being deep, give me a break some styles of bands lyrics are written so kids can sing along and scream or pile on the singer, hence the genre name tuff guy, youth crew, or posi, old school hardcore kept the lyrics simple so kids could identify with them and have some scene unity,but many other bands have great lyrics check out; four walls falling, cable car theory or by the grace of god and try to prove me wrong. some mentioned planes mistaken for stars great band one of my favs but they are not emo most people in the scene label them as post hardcore with some rock elements. hardcore has grown to be more metal influenced as of late but and to whoever said that most hardcore kids would hate someone into black metal bands apperantly you haven't gone to many hardcore shows there are plenty of hardcore bands that have black metal influences check out endthisday if you are interested. yes I am biased towards hardcore but to those you said metal is a life style and hardcore is not are full of shit it all depends what you want to make of it. we are not uneducated and immature like some of you stated nor closeminded of course some are but so are some in the death/black metal scene. my point is that you can't say metal or any other form of music for that matter is better then another if you don't know much about it.

ps In my post I am makeing large generalizations and when I define a type of music its not my personal belief that say for example botch is mathcore but the conclusion of what most people into hardcore would define it as. I don't want to sound like a prick but people should respect other forms of music cause there are plenty of ground breaking musicians in the hc scene. Go to a hardcore message board and you will not find posts trashing a genre of music except pop or nu-metal, at least I have never read or saw an anti-metal thread so chill out if its not your thing cool if you want to learn more go to a fucking show or a record store and stop bitching.

 

[Nate The Great]

Originally posted by ProphesizedDoom
Please, learn reading comprehension. Refer to my response to Dreamlord for more information.

Is that all you can come up with??? You're not "disproving" anything. I can't even tell what point you're argueing anymore.

 

[J.]

npearce, he's just arguing semantics now, which is the true sign of the ignorant.

 

[Nate The Great]

I figured out a way for ProphesizedDoom to win us all over to his side.

Please define Metal. Then we will all see your brilliance and will join hands in a refrain of "We are the metal warriors!!!"