How to Appreciate Death Metal

[skeptik]

If you think that all genres influenced Metal equally, then you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. There's nothing pretentious about trying to explain to someone how they're objectively wrong. It's not a fucking "opinion" that Punk was more influential to Metal than Classical music. That's a fact.

 

[Hatebreeder]

If you think that all genres influenced Metal equally, then you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. There's nothing pretentious about trying to explain to someone how they're objectively wrong. It's not a fucking "opinion" that Punk was more influential to Metal than Classical music. That's a fact.

As is evolution. :Smug:

 

[skeptik]

More or less by anyone who knows what they're talking about, but that's not the point. You can look at the evolution of the genre and, if you're informed on various genres, you can hear in the music that punk has been more influential. Or you can just read what the artists themselves have said, such as Quorthon. Or you can pretend that this is wrong.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

If you think that all genres influenced Metal equally, then you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. There's nothing pretentious about trying to explain to someone how they're objectively wrong. It's not a fucking "opinion" that Punk was more influential to Metal than Classical music. That's a fact.

True... but would you say that nowadays there is a bigger classical influence in metal than a punk influence?

 

[skeptik]

Overall, I probably would, yeah.

 

[Wires & Waves]

True... but would you say that nowadays there is a bigger classical influence in metal than a punk influence?

it's not really comparable, the punk influence is primarily on technique/melody while the classical influence is primarily structural. i think that classical influence is still hugely overstated though, and its presence is pretty damn diluted in the actual music. it's mostly inherited from prog rock bands and the few metal bands that definitely had members that listened to classical music - metallica, emperor etc.

 

[Jreg]

it's not really comparable, the punk influence is primarily on technique/melody while the classical influence is primarily structural. i think that classical influence is still hugely overstated though, and its presence is pretty damn diluted in the actual music. it's mostly inherited from prog rock bands and the few metal bands that definitely had members that listened to classical music - metallica, emperor etc.

That's pretty much how I see it. The thing is that amongst the metalheads I've known, their feelings on classical music go like this: a small handful of them are indifferent or care little for it, an even smaller amount are really into it and have at least a fairly competent grasp on the music and what goes into creating it, and then the overwhelming majority like it and appreciate it to an extent, but it still consitutes only a small fraction of their listening. These are only speculations, but I'm inclined to believe that, more often that not, those kind of "statistics" hold true for all metalheads in general, and also that they're reflected in the works of the bands themselves. So you get a lot of bands whose classical undertones are extremely moderate, diluted and indirect, and then maybe a few who take ideas straight from the source.

 

[RedinTheSky]

it's not really comparable, the punk influence is primarily on technique/melody while the classical influence is primarily structural. i think that classical influence is still hugely overstated though, and its presence is pretty damn diluted in the actual music. it's mostly inherited from prog rock bands and the few metal bands that definitely had members that listened to classical music - metallica, emperor etc.

SO.. who was going to dispute that Jump in the fire was more a punk song than a blues one ?

 

[Hatebreeder]

You're all idiots. Punk might not exist if the traditional metal bands hadn't started stepping up their virtuosity, thus causing the potential punk bands to become disenchanted with the overcomplicated musicality of those bands that led to their simplification of rock music.

So therefore, even punk has something to owe to those bands, not just the metal bands, and therefore punk is not necessarily more influential.

 

[skeptik]

Punk was rebelling against Rock, not Metal. And not just music, but the status quo, politics, etc. And in the early 80s, the explosion of Punk inspired Metal was unleashed and completely altered the face of Metal as it was known prior. Pretty much completely. No other outside genre has so singlehandedly altered the evolutionary track of Metal like Punk has, because its influence was WIDESPREAD across the board and inspired new forms to develop, what we know of today as Thrash, Death, and Black Metal. This is a direct influence from a very nearly contemporary movement, whereas Blues was mostly a stepping stone from which Metal could come forth, taking the darkness of Blues and the basic structures of Rock and creating something new, but after this, the Blues influence has largely been cut away and is mostly found only in Traditional Doom. Classical music, as was already discussed multiple times, had more of a latent influence than direct, its characteristics bleeding into the metallic form through its adaptations in Rock, namely in the lead guitar, and later adapting common themes in terms of structure. But it didn't have the widespread influence that Punk had, which completely broke down everything that was known about Metal at the time and rebuilt it. This wasn't a couple of bands incorporating elements of Jazz or electronica like you see today. This was hundreds, thousands of bands influencing and being influenced by other bands who took their cues from Punk.

And you've been into Metal for a little over 2 years, do you really think you've explored the origins of the style and what went into it enough to give forth a substantial position? To be honest, based on your statement, it doesn't really appear to be the case.

 

[Cythraul]

Dodens pretty much rules itt.

 

[RedinTheSky]

Punk was rebelling against Rock, not Metal. And not just music, but the status quo, politics, etc. And in the early 80s, the explosion of Punk inspired Metal was unleashed and completely altered the face of Metal as it was known prior. Pretty much completely. No other outside genre has so singlehandedly altered the evolutionary track of Metal like Punk has, because its influence was WIDESPREAD across the board and inspired new forms to develop, what we know of today as Thrash, Death, and Black Metal. This is a direct influence from a very nearly contemporary movement, whereas Blues was mostly a stepping stone from which Metal could come forth, taking the darkness of Blues and the basic structures of Rock and creating something new, but after this, the Blues influence has largely been cut away and is mostly found only in Traditional Doom. Classical music, as was already discussed multiple times, had more of a latent influence than direct, its characteristics bleeding into the metallic form through its adaptations in Rock, namely in the lead guitar, and later adapting common themes in terms of structure. But it didn't have the widespread influence that Punk had, which completely broke down everything that was known about Metal at the time and rebuilt it. This wasn't a couple of bands incorporating elements of Jazz or electronica like you see today. This was hundreds, thousands of bands influencing and being influenced by other bands who took their cues from Punk.

And you've been into Metal for a little over 2 years, do you really think you've explored the origins of the style and what went into it enough to give forth a substantial position? To be honest, based on your statement, it doesn't really appear to be the case.

First of all, I was exposed to the bands we are dealing with here , and metal in general around eighteen years ago. That's since I was eight years old. I started playing guitar and piano a bit before then. I was around, listening to many of these black, death, and thrash metal bands that you are so unsuccessfully trying to label as 'hugely influenced by punk, it's like no music ever existed before', so suck my fucking dick.

Punk existed then much as it did today, the attitude may have bleeded into metal just a bit, and some bands were greatly influenced by punk music, but but the concept wasn't the same, the feeling wasn't closer to that of metal than any other genre,
and the style of playing, while vaguely close because they were 'fast and used power chords' wasn't as close as you believe, not even if you change the bands and the time period we're talking about.

Take a fucking look around today and tell me what the aftermath of this 'directly influential, giant explosion of punk music' has done to heavy metal. Where's all the metalcore bands ? Where's all the grindcore bands ? That's about all you have to speak for besides a few early thrash metal acts.

You try to say that blues and classical didn't have the influence that punk did. Why don't you pick up a guitar then, and tell me how many chords we will play that didn't come from classical music. How many scales did you learn that were based on punk ? How many riffs do you hear today that sound like punk riffs ? How many genres of metal did punk create ? Where do you think we got tremolo picking from ? Double bass drumming ? Guitar, bass, and drum solos ? Is all of this really just a bunch latent effects ?

 

[skeptik]

You don't listen man. Debating with you is not worth my fucking time anymore because you can't even acknowledge the Punk influence in fucking PHANTOM LORD, so you're really beyond hope as far as I was concerned. My previous post was in reply to Hatebreeder. I'm not addressing you on this matter anymore so as to prevent myself from receiving a massive brain tumor. You're pretty much the only person here that is too stubborn and has too much of an irrational disposition against Punk to admit that it was hugely influential to the evolution of Metal, and because of this I have no desire to address this matter further.

 

[cookiecutter]

Necuratul has had to argue with two people who are obviously wrong in this thread. Thanks for fighting the good fight Nec.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

This is so incredibly hilarious.

As is your perpetual argumentum ad ignorantiam in this thread. It's easy to argue against the punk influence when you have barely listened to punk. Have you checked out that Discharge album yet? How about listening to the chorus of Skrewdriver's "Antisocial" from 1977? Sound a bit thrashy? Maybe The 4-Skins song "One Law For Them" from 1981? Here is the situation: In the early 1980s, metal became faster, more aggressive and more violent in sound and subject matter with the emergence of thrash, death and black metal. A few years earlier punk became faster, more aggressive and more violent in sound and subject matter. You are trying to pass this off as a coincidence.

Re: "Jump in the Fire". Listen to the vocal lines in that song, and try to tell me that sounds more like a typical blues vocal pattern than a punk one. Or show me a blues song with fast power chord riffing more similar to that found in "Jump In The Fire" than hundreds of punk songs to predate it.

Here are some metal bands who have covered punk bands:
Metallica (Discharge, Ramones, Misfits)
Sepultura (Discharge, Bad Brains)
Anthrax (Ramones)
Slayer (Lots)
Destruction (The Exploited)
Megadeth (Sex Pistols)
Sodom (Ramones)
Motorhead (Sex Pistols)
Holy Moses (Dead Kennedys, DRI)
Machine Head (Discharge)
Children of Bodom (Ramones)
Grand Belial's Key (GG Allin)
Cradle of Filth (Misfits)
Deceased (DRI)
Carpathian Forest (Discharge)
The Meads Of Asphodel (Discharge)

...evidence of punk's direct influence on metal. Note the presence of virtually every major thrash band on that list. How many blues tracks did these bands cover? Classical pieces? Jazz songs?

Isn't it just as likely that the D-beat was learned from Diamondhead ?

It's a punk drumming technique. This is evidence of punk influence in two of the most important and influential metal bands of the 1980s. It's as direct an influence as any classical/jazz/blues techniques that found their way into metal through prog rock or what have you.

Look at the history: no combination of jazz, classical, blues, early 1970s metal, prog rock, etc. will give you thrash, death or black metal. You need to factor in the punk influence to get the speed, tone, violence and aggression to jump start metal's evolution in the early 1980s.

 

[Jreg]

Where do you think we got tremolo picking from ? Double bass drumming ?

You mentioned these before, and my question is this: if they didn't come from punk, where did they come from? To me, it sounds like you're making the assumption that every element of metal was borrowed directly from another source and not altered for the artists' own needs and intentions, which is incorrect. Have you ever read any interviews with older black/death/thrash metal bands? From what I've read, the way in which they helped develop extreme metal into what it now is was not entirely through the direct derivation of other musical elements, but also through a bit of experimentation and trial and error. The ultimate goal of many of them was to be as fast and aggressive as possible, and while double kicks and tremolo picking technically might not have been employed by older, influential punk bands, speed and aggression certainly were employed and ---as formica just mentioned above---used as a template for metal bands to work from. Through the aforementioned experimentation, they channeled that speed and aggression into something much more extreme sounding such that we now have these elements which have become indispensible cornerstones of the metal sound.

 

[nissan]

The guy doesn't know his sub-genres.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Guitar, bass, and drum solos ?

Another thing: go get that Discharge album from '82 and listen for all the ripping thrash metal-esque guitar solos.

 

[CF87]

The thing I like about death metal is guitarists having their own guitar sound and style. You hear so much music where all the guitarists have the same tone and production. You listen to a death metal albums and you kinda think the guitar tone is cool and wonder why it sounds the way it does and why these people decided to go about the style they play.

 

[skeptik]

I think Death Metal, or at least old school Death Metal, has been the biggest victim of having the same sound, because they all went to the same studios.