How to Appreciate Death Metal

Holy shit, please, stop responding, you honestly don't know what you're talking about. If you're trying "to go on what the bands actually said they were influenced by" and you're leaving out all of the punk bands that they're citing, then you're just talking bullshit. I highly, highly, highly recommend you do more research on this subject, because after you do, you'll probably be embarrassed about what you're saying. You really don't know anything about the history of Metal and Punk based on what you've been posting. Hell, you might even like Punk if you listened to it instead of dismissing it wholesale. Trust me, go and listen to the first Discharge album, you'll understand things a lot better just by listening to that album. Then go listen to Kill 'Em All, Endless Pain, Bathory, Morbid Tales, Deathcrush, A Blaze In The Northern Sky, Show No Mercy, Melissa, etc., etc ad infinitum.
 
Sounds like the opinion of someone who has only heard two punk bands. I can only assume you have yet to hear:

The 4-Skins - The Good, The Bad & The 4-Skins
The Exploited - Troops of Tomorrow
Discharge - Hear Nothing See Nothing Say Nothing
Skrewdriver - All Skrewed Up
Motörhead - Motörhead
The Misfits - Walk Among Us
Black Flag - Damaged

Or virtually any early punk(ish) music that has a hell of a lot more to do with 1980s metal than any classical. Someone who knows more about punk (I'm pretty new to it myself) could probably list a lot more.

I'm a veteran to punk

continuing

DRI - Dirty Rotten LP
Siege - Drop Dead
Verbal Abuse - We're An American Band
Dead Kennedys - Frankenchrist
Antisect - In Darkness There Is No Choice
Negative Approach - Tied Down
Die Kreuzen - October File
Meatmen - We're The Meatmen And You Suck
GG Allin - Freaks Faggots Drunks And Junkies
GBH - City Baby Attacked By Rats
The Accused - The Return Of Martha Splatterhead
Minor Threat - Complete Discography
SSD - Power
 
Holy shit, please, stop responding, you honestly don't know what you're talking about. If you're trying "to go on what the bands actually said they were influenced by" and you're leaving out all of the punk bands that they're citing, then you're just talking bullshit. I highly, highly, highly recommend you do more research on this subject, because after you do, you'll probably be embarrassed about what you're saying. You really don't know anything about the history of Metal and Punk based on what you've been posting. Hell, you might even like Punk if you listened to it instead of dismissing it wholesale. Trust me, go and listen to the first Discharge album, you'll understand things a lot better just by listening to that album. Then go listen to Kill 'Em All, Endless Pain, Bathory, Morbid Tales, Deathcrush, A Blaze In The Northern Sky, Show No Mercy, Melissa, etc., etc ad infinitum.

I have plenty of experience in listening and playing the music of the bands you've cited, (besides perhaps Darkthrone, not that it's a problem to analyze) and I have heard most of the punk bands you cited as well. I still honestly don't understand how you say punk had more influence on metal than other genres. Punk influencing tremolo picking, the use of double bass, and classical or blues themed solos ? Punk influencing acoustic interludes ? I just don't think they are as great of an influence as you say.

And just to reiterate, some of the albums you cite as influencing these bands would have came out after some of these bands had formed, certainly after a great deal of these musicians had learned how to play their instruments. (For the most part) So how could their influence have been greater ?
 
I have plenty of experience in listening and playing the music of the bands you've cited, (besides perhaps Darkthrone, not that it's a problem to analyze) and I have heard most of the punk bands you cited as well. I still honestly don't understand how you say punk had more influence on metal than other genres. Punk influencing tremolo picking, the use of double bass, and classical or blues themed solos ? Punk influencing acoustic interludes ? I just don't think they are as great of an influence as you say.

You would be completely right if you were talking about Metal up to and including NWOBHM. Fact is, innumerable amounts of Metal bands in the 80's were mixing NWOBHM with punk and hardcore. The influence of bands such as the sex pistols, discharge and the ramones was ridiculous.
 
RedinTheSky:

Look up the D-beat, a punk drumming technique pioneered by Discharge that went on to be used by bands like Hellhammer and Venom.

Look up a band called "Motörhead", who sound very much like punk. Look up bands called "Metallica" and "Overkill" (guess where that name came from) who started a genre called "thrash metal" while being heavily influenced by "Motörhead".

Note that the violent speed and aggression prevalent in thrash metal is predated by violent speed and aggression in punk subgenres like Oi! and hardcore. Note the lack of violent speed and aggression in classical, blues and jazz.

Edit: Good call on GG Allin above, honestly it isn't that big of a jump from Freaks, Faggots, Drunks & Junkies to Dethrone the Son of God. Think about it.
 
note that the name "thrash metal" is derived from "thrash" which was contemporary term for what's now known as 'crossover'

hell, note the FUCKING EXISTENCE of crossover
 
RedinTheSky:

Look up the D-beat, a punk drumming technique pioneered by Discharge that went on to be used by bands like Hellhammer and Venom.

Look up a band called "Motörhead", who sound very much like punk. Look up bands called "Metallica" and "Overkill" (guess where that name came from) who started a genre called "thrash metal" while being heavily influenced by "Motörhead".

Note that the violent speed and aggression prevalent in thrash metal is predated by violent speed and aggression in punk subgenres like Oi! and hardcore. Note the lack of violent speed and aggression in classical, blues and jazz.

Edit: Good call on GG Allin above, honestly it isn't that big of a jump from Freaks, Faggots, Drunks & Junkies to Dethrone the Son of God. Think about it.

While I acknowledge the absence of speed from most blues, you've got to be insane if you think anything in that time period even came close to how fast classical/jazz musicians manipulate their instruments. With that out of the way, I will acknowledge that Motorhead has a lot of punk in their sound, as well as danzig.
(My best friend used to listen to all manner of punk, with The Misfits/Samhain being some of his favorites)

However, as I stated earlier I believe the influence of punk to be relatively small, as the people in question who started thrash ( I guess that's the only genre we're talking about anymore) had already learned how to play and were forming their bands at the time these punk bands were innovating. Isn't it just as likely that the D-beat was learned from Diamondhead ? ( Who likely influenced Metallica much more than Motorhead... I won't even bring up Iron Maiden's influence)

As far as I can see the contributions these bands made were certainly apparent, just not as substantial as classical or blues. Let's take Metallica for instance... how many blues solos are there on Kill 'em all.... and how many solos are there on punk records ? (of any kind)

How many punk albums have long instrumentals with multiple solos and acoustic interludes ? Ok maybe Metallica learned a bit of their riffing style from Iron Maiden... but Iron Maiden's playing style didn't come from punk, they were already a band when 99 % of the punk bands in question were releasing material. Their singer liking punk music doesn't count. (Steve Harris was influenced by King Crimson IIRC)

Its a given that a few bands were greatly influenced by punk, but with the exception of Overkill, which I forgot about, and Motorhead, which is probably as much a punk band as a metal one, the thrash genre wasn't more influenced by punk than any other, especially not more than classical and blues. These artists learned classical & or blues style guitar from their teacher. (s) ( a few might have tought themselves while listening to the original heavy metal bands, who had originally learned from their teachers)

The certainly did not learn drumming technique from punk bands either. Just use your ears. Was punk around while they were forming their bands ? Yes. Did they form punk bands ? No. Did they listen to punk as a child and get inspired to play music ? No. Did they hear punk music, and say, we need to play fast ? Possibly. But they'd already heard the likes of Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Rush, King Crimson, etc, who are heavily influenced
by classical, blues and jazz.
 
i cant say i'm well-versed in theory, but...

drumming primarily as ambient backdrop to melodic riffing rather than rhythmic center
melodic riffs composed of two/three fast-strummed primary chords and traversals between them
riffs serving as central focus of the song rather than as backdrop to/vying for attention with vocal melody
vocals as amelodic rhythmic accompaniment

all these features, which are fucking central to much of modern metal music, are derived from hardcore punk

you can claim that any of these were done in any other music before, but it's irrelevant, because historical sources demonstrate that hardcore was the primary source of influence that led to these features being adopted into metal's musical lexicon
 
Oh god, STOP. You're fucking clueless man, I seriously don't know what to tell you. You keep talking about solos as if that is everything that Metal is and the fact that Punk is less structured and rigid than Metal as if this is conclusive proof that classical and blues are more influential than Metal. A lot of Punk didn't even have solos. How does that mean that Blues is more influential overall? And once again, the classical influence is INDIRECT, through other forms of music that adopted aspects of classical and altered them to suit that style. The examples that you use to illustrate the miniscule influence that Punk has had, such as solos and instrumentals, is totally arbitrary and fucking meaningless. I highly recommend that you either drop the argument or educate yourself further on the matter before you continue, because now you're just splitting hairs and pissing everyone off.
 
i don't think so, the greater impedance to death metal's acceptance among intellectual music circles is not its exposure, but an accident of its aesthetic veneer which has caused the majority of those drawn towards metal to enjoy it for the wrong reasons.

or maybe i'm just a pretentious asshole.

I think those people are just pussies, and I think you're being a fucking pussy.
 
i cant say i'm well-versed in theory, but...

drumming primarily as ambient backdrop to melodic riffing rather than rhythmic center
melodic riffs composed of two/three fast-strummed primary chords and traversals between them
riffs serving as central focus of the song rather than as backdrop to/vying for attention with vocal melody
vocals as amelodic rhythmic accompaniment

all these features, which are fucking central to much of modern metal music, are derived from hardcore punk

you can claim that any of these were done in any other music before, but it's irrelevant, because historical sources demonstrate that hardcore was the primary source of influence that led to these features being adopted into metal's musical lexicon

Hmm.... your all encompassing description of thrash metal is interesting though I'm sure any band would question their song structure being described in such a vague fashion.

These central features you speak of were not brought to the bands in question through osmosis. Hardcore punk music was coming alive much as thrash was during the same fucking time period. What you're talking about isn't like Diamondhead influencing Metallica. It's more like Anthrax influencing Mayhem. They may have some similar qualities... but as far as influences go, they were probably not influenced by the same music/styles, and even if they were... their own personal foundation of music definitely was a greater factor than a band that was forming at nearly the same time.

Your claim that it's 'irrelevant if any of these were done in any other music before because of historical sources' is quite ridiculous simply because you failed to state any of these sources for some unknown reason, and now I'm wondering if either I missed something in my own research or experience, or you've assumed that this 'it's common knowledge' thing is sufficent. It really isn't.
 
i'm not going to waste my time looking for interviews to prove you wrong, the evidence is out there in abundance if you bother to look for it. seeing as you're the one making ridiculous claims that contradict accepted history on the subject, you're the one who has something to prove.
 
are you fucking seriously trying to say metallica are more influenced by blues than punk? did the shitload of punk covers (and total absence of blues ones) on garage inc. pass you by?