Vacant_Planets
Queen Nicole
Yes, that's called putting your 2 cents in....I am only saying this to further impress upon you the importance of thinking before you speak.
How to Appreciate Death Metal
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Yes, that's called putting your 2 cents in....I am only saying this to further impress upon you the importance of thinking before you speak.
Seditious
GodSlayer
someone write one of these for Iron Maiden/The Darkness/etc. cos it's like techno to me, I just can't get with it.
RedinTheSky
Member
Arguing that Black Sabbath isn't metal is going to be about as successful as saying that a relatively newborn genre that may have been most influential to Motorhead, ( If indeed you can call them Metal and not Punk ) was more influential than classical or yes, even blues. I should wait here for someone to explain what sweeping change punk brought in that classical, blues, or jazz hadn't already done better. ( Not to mention Black Sabbath, Deep Purple or Rush)
skeptik
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What makes you think that Classical had such a huge impact on the origins of Metal? If it wasn't for Punk, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Death, Possessed, Master, Saint Vitus, Autopsy, Mercyful Fate, etc., etc., would have been radically different. These bands have all cited numerous times the tremendous influence that Punk bands like Discharge (probably above all), Amebix, GBH, The Exploited, Dead Kennedys, Sex Pistols, The Ramones, etc., had on their music. I mention only these bands because they all played a critical role in developing the varous sounds of Metal. I could name dozens of other late 70s/80/early 90s bands like Mayhem and Darkthrone who also played a role in the development of Metal who were influenced by punk. A lot of these bands have even covered Punk songs. None of them covered any classical songs though.
Care to explain the huge impact Classical music had in the 70s and 80s on Metal? I don't think it came into much prominence until the sophistication of Black Metal arose in the 90s. But seriously, maybe you just don't listen to the bands that I mentioned so you're just unaware of the radical impact Punk had in shaping Metal as we know it, but you honestly look a bit silly arguing that point.
Care to explain the huge impact Classical music had in the 70s and 80s on Metal? I don't think it came into much prominence until the sophistication of Black Metal arose in the 90s. But seriously, maybe you just don't listen to the bands that I mentioned so you're just unaware of the radical impact Punk had in shaping Metal as we know it, but you honestly look a bit silly arguing that point.
Manic Ferocity
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To put it in shorter terms, about 90% of metal bands wouldn't exist without punk. Simple as that.
RedinTheSky
Member
Punk wasn't even a floating turd when Metal came to be . ( i.e. the first metal bands) All of those bands you listed were vastly more influenced by those bands that started metal ( Namely Sabbath) than punk. Your argument that many of them did covers of punk bands is funny. I'm not saying they didn't listen to punk... you need a more comprehensive argument here, just as many if not more of those bands played Sabbath covers than punk covers alone; now what happens if I toss Rush, or Deep Purple, or Led Zeppelin in there ? How about Judas Priest ? How much more do these bands actually sound like punk bands than the early metal bands ? Is there really more punk riffing in here than classical ? I hope you give the bands you listed more credit than that.
RedinTheSky
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skeptik
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What the fuck? Where the hell did I ever say that PUNK WAS MORE INFLUENTIAL TO METAL THAN OTHER METAL BANDS? We're talking about OTHER GENRES' influence on the evolution of Metal, so this entire section of your post is a waste of time.
Why would acknowledging the vastly more evident influence of punk over classical in Metal music be giving less "credit" to the bands? It seems like you're just throwing in classical in an attempt to intellectualize something that you've put a lot of stake in or something. How much non-Black Metal Metal music (aside from the "neo-classical" wankery of Malmsteen and others) can you really cite? I assure you its proliferation is minuscule in comparison to Punk music.
Dazed and Brutal
Yall About to Witness
I am only saying this to further impress upon you the importance of thinking before you speak.
Don't tell me to do something that you are clearly incapable of doing.
Fury of the Storm
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Punk is probably one of the most influential genre to metal but I think Classical plays a larger role than what most people seem to think. It is basically the classical influences that separates metal from rock.
RedinTheSky
Member
The bands they were most influenced by were most influenced by genres other than punk, which was not around yet, or currently in the very early stages of development.
Power metal, Neoclassical, and Black metal were quite influential, and have obvious classical influences. Melodeath was obviously greatly influenced by classical music ( See
At the Gates The Red in the Sky is Ours album). Solos of all kinds come from classical, blues, and jazz. The added use of keyboards in early metal wasn't just a fashion statement, you know.
Maybe you hate classical music, so you don't really see the obvious influences it has on everyone who learns how to play a guitar . ( Maybe I just hate punk and I don't want to listen for the Similarities ) This has been an interesting argument, but I'm just not too sure how you're going to argue against genres that influenced the founding metal bands . Its obvious here that the establishing bands had a lot of influence on later metal bands. It's also obvious that they ( the establishing bands) couldn't have been influenced by punk .
Now tell me that the chord structures and overall sound of the bands you are talking about were more influenced by a fad that was going on at the time, or the genre of music that invented the chord structures that every guitarist learns in guitar school. The genre that invented the solos that most metal bands are known for and barely any punk band ever used .
Certainly punk greatly influenced some of these bands ( Slayer perhaps ) , but even then I only see or hear perhaps a slight influence in singing style or aggressiveness . Metal bands have a comparatively complex and much more melodic approach than punk, a style that can be easily seen in their progenitors ; a style highly influenced by classical and blues .
skeptik
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This is evidently the case. And no, I don't hate classical, I actually like it quite a bit, a lot more than punk. But you're just wrong, and I don't see how this conversation can go any further until you familiarize yourself with punk music and that contemporary metal scene and how they influenced each other, because if you're not hearing the punk influence in the bands that I mentioned, then you don't know punk. So let me know if you plan on becoming familiar with punk, otherwise this is kind of just wasting my time. I'm not denying the (mostly indirect) influence of classical music on metal, but the punk influence is just so overwhelmingly more important and obvious in the evolution of metal in the late 70s and early 80s that it's baffling to me to be even addressing this.
Punk was a major influence on thrash metal - the aggression, the subject matter, the general attitude, the speed, the raw/"sloppy" recordings, etc.
Punk was also a major influence on black metal, mainly in the DIY ethic that wasn't common in metal before punk came along.
Blues and punk are probably the most prominent influences on metal, especially over classical whose influence is more latent than explicit.
Simple experiment: listen to any aggressive post-1980 metal band. Do they sound the most like:
a) 4-Skins
b) Howlin' Wolf
c) Pachelbel
Answer: Probably not 'c'.
Punk was also a major influence on black metal, mainly in the DIY ethic that wasn't common in metal before punk came along.
Blues and punk are probably the most prominent influences on metal, especially over classical whose influence is more latent than explicit.
Simple experiment: listen to any aggressive post-1980 metal band. Do they sound the most like:
a) 4-Skins
b) Howlin' Wolf
c) Pachelbel
Answer: Probably not 'c'.
ohiogrinder
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not exactly. black metal, death metal, metalcore and grindcore and even some doom owe a shitton to punk rock.
ohiogrinder
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Fury of the Storm
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On Topic: the explanation was a bit dry, like a few have stated earlier, I expected a more detailed view on the fundamentals of death metal and the music theories that go along with the genre. While it was nice that he stated how debatable genres are, his sub genre list was not very accurate and had genres that are simple not death metal or made up description type 'genres' that rarely speak of the music itself.
RedinTheSky
Member
Sounds good to me. I still think that even Slayer (Out of the bands you listed) has a lot more classical influences than punk. I still think the Sex Pistols have a lot less influence on Mustaine than classical when he wrote his riffs and solos. I still think you're probably deaf if you think there is more punk sound than blues in 'Hit the Lights' (and most Kill 'em all songs) . Just my opinion .
skeptik
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You think there's more Blues influence in the debut Metallica album than Punk? I mean...have you heard Phantom Lord? Whatever. And I doubt anyone in Slayer has listened to much classical music at all, and as Mr. table pointed out, the predominant classical influence that you'll find in nearly any form of Metal would be latent and vicarious through other influences. On the other hand, they all listened to a shitload of Discharge. Do yourself a favor and listen to the first Discharge album. Just that one album should completely overturn your notion of the evolution of Metal in the 80s. The Blues influence obviously faded in the 80s when Punk came to prominence. The only genre that clearly retains a direct Blues influence is Doom Metal.
Sounds like the opinion of someone who has only heard two punk bands. I can only assume you have yet to hear:
The 4-Skins - The Good, The Bad & The 4-Skins
The Exploited - Troops of Tomorrow
Discharge - Hear Nothing See Nothing Say Nothing
Skrewdriver - All Skrewed Up
Motörhead - Motörhead
The Misfits - Walk Among Us
Black Flag - Damaged
Or virtually any early punk(ish) music that has a hell of a lot more to do with 1980s metal than any classical. Someone who knows more about punk (I'm pretty new to it myself) could probably list a lot more.
RedinTheSky
Member
Since none of us can truly know what the bands were influenced by, I just tried to go on the what the bands actually said they were influenced by . And while none particularly cited a classical composer, none were citing punk bands either because the music was more or less developing during the time most of the bands themselves were. In other words, metal bands that were greatly influenced by metal bands that were influenced by classical, blues and jazz, were greatly influenced by classical, blues, and jazz. And to a lesser degree, influenced by punk.
There are a myriad of hardcore and a few black metal bands you can saddle with this 'Largely influenced by Punk' title, just stay away from my Metal bands. They may have been influenced by punk a bit, but you can't start saying 'punk's influence was the greatest ever' when these bands do not sound or only very slightly sound like they have a bit of influence from punk.
A lot of people I know used to listen to the bands you list, and I am familiar enough with them to say that they may have shared some of the same energy, and some (in most cases small) ideas, but what heavy metal got from punk, if anything, was already done before punk came around, and done quite better by more influential sources.
If if we just go ahead and say that punk influenced metal to play faster, ( Just ignore classical, jazz, and prog rock ) we are still left with song structures that have varying speeds and tempos, acoustic parts, instrumentals, solos, and a whole lot of other stuff that punk doesn't have . ( the punk was around to influence the bands in question)
I'll give you Danzig... and maybe Sodom. That's about it.
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