Most Overrated Opeth Song

How about this: if one has "bad taste", they lack the capacity to make aesthetic choices. To have bad hearing is to be nearly deaf, so couldn't bad taste mean you just don't care what the hell you're enjoying, as long as (in the case of a metalhead with bad taste) there's just some distorted guitar riffage, or in most American moviegoers' case, some explosions?
 
I don't think so, in this perspective, it could seems to be this way, but If you think about it, taste is a synonym of subjectivity, and the antonym of objectivity. When you say somethink is useful, technically good, in a objective way, you don't take care of your taste. Something may have many very good point and a lot of talent, chances are that won't like it because of your taste. I believe some rappers have a lot of talent (I couldn't do that) but I don't like it.
 
Too many complicate words, system errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr fails.

Subjectivity is all about taste. Something subjective is something that has been influenced by someone's taste.
 
Nasty-Fire said:
I don't think so, in this perspective, it could seems to be this way, but If you think about it, taste is a synonym of subjectivity, and the antonym of objectivity. When you say somethink is useful, technically good, in a objective way, you don't take care of your taste. Something may have many very good point and a lot of talent, chances are that won't like it because of your taste. I believe some rappers have a lot of talent (I couldn't do that) but I don't like it.
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how the hell is taste a synonym of subjectivity? ...anyways, completely agreeing with illidan on this one. usually the "taste is all ur opinion!!!!!!" argument comes up when some noob thinks a shit band is great, and then defends whichever shit band it is.

we had a thread years back where someone listed objective qualities that make great music great, i should find it.
 
philno said:
how the hell is taste a synonym of subjectivity? ...anyways, completely agreeing with illidan on this one. usually the "taste is all ur opinion!!!!!!" argument comes up when some noob thinks a shit band is great or something... we had a thread years back where someone listed objective qualities that make great music great, i should find it.
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That's useless... even if you give all the arguments to say someone's favorite band is pure shit, he still loves it and that doesn't make his tastes any more bad than you. You should think a little further on this. And yes, taste and subjectivity are directly linked together.
 
philno said:
what the... :err:
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Subjectivity : "Judgment based on individual personal impressions and
feelings and opinions rather than external facts".

So there we go, subjectivity is about opinion. Guess what... taste are about opinion too!

Taste : "Ability to notice, appreciate, and judge what is beautiful, appropriate, or harmonious, or what is excellent in art, music, decoration, clothing, etc."

Which may differ from a individual to another, because of the subjectivity of the criterias.

Stop trying to lower what I'm saying, I'm just basing myself on fucking facts. Taste is not something you can judge of. You really like asparagus but everyone keep telling you it tastes like pure shit... still you find the asparagus very good. People will tell you that it cannot be good because there is some kind of substance in it that makes it untasteful, but you'll like it anyway. THAT is taste and this idea can be applied to anything, including music. If you like untalented bands, nobody can say you have bad taste, that's what you like.
 
Nasty-Fire said:
That's useless... even if you give all the arguments to say someone's favorite band is pure shit, he still loves it and that doesn't make his tastes any more bad than you. You should think a little further on this. And yes, taste and subjectivity are directly linked together.
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you're taking this to an unbelievable level of nitty-gritty bullshit.

say you drive a piece of shit 1990 car and your friend bought a brand new lexus. you could easily argue by the same means as you've been doing on this thread that your piece of shit car is better than his lexus. you could claim that you've loved this car since the day you got it, it's comfortable, whatever. you'd say that it's just your opinion and that everyone's entitled to their opinion.

now, if we took a random sample of people and asked them which car they'd prefer to drive, 99% would say the lexus. obviously there exists some personal bias and preformed psychological behaviour in everyone that determines a persons outlook on music, a car, whatever it may be. some will prefer a red lexus, some will prefer a blue BMW.
BUT, also there must exist a set of objective aesthetics that make forming an opinion of a car or music or whatever feasible. and though describing such a list of objectively defined aesthetics may prove very hard or even impossible, it most certainly exists, which is why people can say with certainty that beethoven, the beatles, and pink floyd are all top calibur musicians.
 
Nasty-Fire said:
Subjectivity : "Judgment based on individual personal impressions and
feelings and opinions rather than external facts".

So there we go, subjectivity is about opinion. Guess what... taste are about opinion too!

Taste : "Ability to notice, appreciate, and judge what is beautiful, appropriate, or harmonious, or what is excellent in art, music, decoration, clothing, etc."

Which may differ from a individual to another, because of the subjectivity of the criterias.

Stop trying to lower what I'm saying, I'm just basing myself on fucking facts. Taste is not something you can judge of. You really like asparagus but everyone keep telling you it tastes like pure shit... still you find the asparagus very good. People will tell you that it cannot be good because there is some kind of substance in it that makes it untasteful, but you'll like it anyway. THAT is taste and this idea can be applied to anything, including music. If you like untalented bands, nobody can say you have bad taste, that's what you like.
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there's no need to post definitions for these words, i've expressed no need for such patronizing kindergarten shit. why don't you post a list of synonym's for subjectivity and see if "taste" comes up? it doesn't matter how many definitions you post, taste is not synonymous with subjectivity. taste may be based on a set of semi-personal semi-subjective opinions, but it sure is fuck isn't a synonym for subjectivity.
 
philno said:
you're taking this to an unbelievable level of nitty-gritty bullshit.

say you drive a piece of shit 1990 car and your friend bought a brand new lexus. you could easily argue by the same means as you've been doing on this thread that your piece of shit car is better than his lexus. you could claim that you've loved this car since the day you got it, it's comfortable, whatever. you'd say that it's just your opinion and that everyone's entitled to their opinion.

now, if we took a random sample of people and asked them which car they'd prefer to drive, 99% would say the lexus. obviously there exists some personal bias in everyone that determines a persons outlook on music, a car, whatever it may be. some will prefer a red lexus, some will prefer a blue BMW.
BUT, also there must exist a set of objective aesthetics that make forming an opinion of a car or music or whatever feasible. and though describing such a list of objectively defined aesthetics may prove very hard or even impossible, it most certainly exists, which is why people can say with certainty that beethoven, the beatles, and pink floyd are all top calibur musicians.
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"you're taking this to an unbelievable level of nitty-gritty bullshit." So you are. I agree on some points that you mentionned in the case of a social point of view, a collective uncounsciousness. In a more philosophic perspective, if everyone in the world says that you are crazy, and for you, it seems like it's everyone in the world who is crazy... who is crazy?

For the car thing, the Lexus is objectively more comfortable and more performant than the old care, sure, but that doesn't mean a certain person will necesserly prefer the newer car. Its comfortability and the fact that it is new are two factors that could push him to like it more, but let's imagine someone who prefer uncomfortable and old cars... we could say he's crazy, but for some reasons that's what he like, his taste is oriented toward that kind of car.

philno said:
there's no need to post definitions for these words, i've expressed no need for such patronizing kindergarten shit. why don't you post a list of synonym's for subjectivity and see if "taste" comes up?
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It doesn't, this is why I explained the link between them, that you didn't consider.


I would had, and I think everyone should agree on this, that it's pretty frustrating when someone tells you that your taste sucks. Nobody should have the right, should be in position to decide that what you like is "bad" and what you dislike is "good", metal was at his beginning considered as bad from the whole fucking society, but when you're inside it (and the reason why it existed), is because you think it's a good thing no matter what the rest thinks of it.
 
"Demon of the Fall" is an awesome song :) stop ripping it be'atches!!!!
Overated Opeth song......hmmm...overated album - fricken Still Life!!
Blackwater Park is the god of all albums!
 
Nasty-Fire said:
In a more philosophic perspective, if everyone in the world says that you are crazy, and for you, it seems like it's everyone in the world who is crazy... who is crazy?
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perhaps you meant for that to be more philosophically challenging than it turned out to be... :lol:

For the car thing, the Lexus is objectively more comfortable and more performant than the old care, sure, but that doesn't mean a certain person will necesserly prefer the newer car. Its comfortability and the fact that it is new are two factors that could push him to like it more, but let's imagine someone who prefer uncomfortable and old cars... we could say he's crazy, but for some reasons that's what he like, his taste is oriented toward that kind of car.
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how is the lexus more objectively comfortable? isn't comfort based on opinion? how could you objectively rate comfort? if you're going to argue that opinions are subjective, argue it. if you're going to change opinions every post to "save" your internet ego, this isn't going to be meaningful. comfort and "the fact that is new" MIGHT be two factors that a person would base his opinion on, but it also might not be. it's surprising that the person im arguing with is sounding more and more like the person he's arguing against with every post.


It doesn't, this is why I explained the link between them, that you didn't consider.
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good, then we can finally agree that you're speaking out of your ass:

Nasty-Fire said:
taste is a synonym of subjectivity, and the antonym of objectivity.
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and I didn't need the link between them explained :Smug:
 
as it turns out im quite enjoying highlighting your inconsistencies and hypocrisy for the entertainment of others... i'd like this to be a more detailed discussion as well, but it's clear you're already having to much trouble finding and spelling the right words.
 
^ you gotta be kidding me. Its the best song on Orchid. As for my contricution to this thread I would say Demon Of The Fall. Its one of my favorites but its just one of those songs where you think of Opeth you think of Demon Of The Fall. Just my 2 cents
 
philno said:
as it turns out im quite enjoying highlighting your inconsistencies and hypocrisy for the entertainment of others... i'd like this to be a more detailed discussion as well, but it's clear you're already having to much trouble finding and spelling the right words.
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In all fairness though, I couldn't imagine having this conversation in French. I can't say I'm that entertained by you saying he's talking out of his ass, and I don't think anyone else is invested enough in this debate to read all of our tl;dr posts. Though I basically agree with you on all of this.

@NF- The thing about "good" taste and "bad" taste is that it's designated by a social norm. Whether it's Swedish metalhead or American mallgoth society. It's subjective to a degree, and altogether social norms are shitty, but it's as real as anything else.
 
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