opeth and tool

[Sacrilicious]

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Yes, because the godfathers of punk music are suddenly a rock band. Oh and rock bands who are progressive aren't prog-rock? Hah, you did know that prog-rock is short for "progressive rock" didn't you?

So now punk isn't a form of rock???

)@#(%*@#%(#*)(*R)@$*()%*)#%*@)%*)(*%

YES I KNOW WHAT PROG ROCK MEANS. IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT "PROGRESSIVE ROCK" REFERS TO A VERY SPECIFIC STYLE OF ROCK MUSIC, NOT JUST ANY ROCK BAND THAT IS PROGRESSIVE. THIS IS NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

It's really funny that you're now depicting punk as a completely seperate genre from punk (and thus punk a seperate genre from progressive rock, obviously) when both Radiohead and My Bloody Valentine's main influences are punk and post-punk bands. Have you heard ANYTHING before OK Computer or Loveless? If you have and still think that's prog-rock, I don't even know where to begin.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
And did you ever think the only reason I acted this way is because Tool fans are fucking annoying little shits? If I acted this way to everyone I disagreed with I'd also be banned, did you even stop to think before you typed out that paragraph? If you did you'd have realised that not only are you behaving the exact same way you're criticising me for, but you're also a self-obsessed fool who cannot look at any other viewpoint but his own.

Yeah all Tool fans are fucking annoying little shits because a few of them are. That's sound logic. Judging from your posts I'd be forced to conclude that Radiohead and Converge fans are also annoying little shits.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Yawn, standard caps + misquote someone Mensa Troll textbook technique #3429043.

Yawn, using my own insults against me, uncreative moron troll textbook technique #985802 (assuming idiots like you are capable of reading and writing).

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
If the only way you eat your chips is with tomato ketchup then you've already lost. What, that doesn't make sense? Bingo!

Ad hominem attacks are a widely recognized logical fallacy and are almost always indicative of a weak argument. Any philosophy professor or anyone who knows anything about debate will tell you this.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Let me know when you turn 17.

Happened some time ago thanks.

 

[Cynical Bastard]

Reading these posts is very entertaining, especially all of this nonsense about strategies of debating and talk of winning against your "opponents." It's great because you're the only one who actually takes this crap so seriously. You need to get a life and not fullfill yourself by trying to intellectually out-do people on a message board. Things DO get accomplished in life by being humble and respectful of other people's opinions, not by tearing others down and treating them like shit. All that does is perpetuate an argument for your own benefit.

Originally posted by Sacrilicious
If the only way you know how to win a debate is ad hominem attacks then you lost a long time ago.

If you don't think that makes sense, then you don't know what ad hominem means.

 

[Sacrilicious]

Originally posted by Cynical Bastard
Reading these posts is very entertaining, especially all of this nonsense about strategies of debating and talk of winning against your "opponents." It's great because you're the only one who actually takes this crap so seriously. You need to get a life and not fullfill yourself by trying to intellectually out-do people on a message board. Things DO get accomplished in life by being humble and respectful of other people's opinions, not by tearing others down and treating them like shit. All that does is perpetuate an argument for your own benefit.

I don't know if you're referring to me or not, butI personally am not really trying to win an argument here. I just really really dislike pretentious, elitist fucktards like MA and I want to bring him down a notch. No not very mature, but then again I think our society's idea of maturity is a pretty stupid and meaningless concept in the first place.

 

[Masters Apprentice]

Originally posted by Sacrilicious
So now punk isn't a form of rock???

No, punk is punk. Rock is rock. I hope this helped.

YES I KNOW WHAT PROG ROCK MEANS. IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT "PROGRESSIVE ROCK" REFERS TO A VERY SPECIFIC STYLE OF ROCK MUSIC, NOT JUST ANY ROCK BAND THAT IS PROGRESSIVE. THIS IS NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

Oh I get it, so the genre of progressive rock is not for progressive rock bands. Ah, God I'm such an idiot for thinking otherwise.

It's really funny that you're now depicting punk as a completely seperate genre from punk (and thus punk a seperate genre from progressive rock, obviously) when both Radiohead and My Bloody Valentine's main influences are punk and post-punk bands. Have you heard ANYTHING before OK Computer or Loveless? If you have and still think that's prog-rock, I don't even know where to begin.

Radiohead's influences are punk..hmm, The Smiths, Aphex Twin, Sigur Rós and Pink Floyd are punk then are they?

No, Radiohead's original albums are not prog-rock but does that automatically mean they are not prog-rock? With your fantastic logic, Cave-In are still a hardcore metal band even though they now make Foo Fighters endorsed indie rock.

Yeah all Tool fans are fucking annoying little shits because a few of them are. That's sound logic. Judging from your posts I'd be forced to conclude that Radiohead and Converge fans are also annoying little shits.

I was generalizing, and a few of them are annoying? Try 90%. Oh but almighty Sacrilicious maybe it's just me and the countless others on in this topic(and all over the net) that hate them and you are absolutety right.

And any point that quote had is made totally null and void by the amount of people who have attacked my opinions in this topic. I find it hilarious you are all making so much fuss over what I think of music you like. If you were to troll a Radiohead or Godspeed topic, I wouldn't give a fuck.

Yawn, using my own insults against me, uncreative moron troll textbook technique #985802 (assuming idiots like you are capable of reading and writing).

Haha, you do just realise that what you just "Yawn"'d, you just used. Wow, every sentence you make just takes me down that little bit more!

Ad hominem attacks are a widely recognized logical fallacy and are almost always indicative of a weak argument. Any philosophy professor or anyone who knows anything about debate will tell you this.

Did they also happen to mention it's impossible to prove that your opinion of a band is right? Because it's exactly that - an opinion. So if you're gonna argue your point, you may as well make it look good.

Oh and once again, you do know you're doing the exact same thing as me? You sit up on your pedestal trying to "take me down" by trying to pass YOUR GOD-DAMN OPINION off as the facts. You're every bit as pretentious and arrogant as I am, I'll let you decide how much that is, because I really don't give a fuck what people think of the way I act.

Oh and lol@you trying to justify yourself to people. Get a fucking grip of yourself, especially justifying yourself to a hypocritical retard like Cynical Bastard who continues to grace this topic with his shit-filled posts. That latest one is a beauty by the way, get a life and stop trying to look good on a messageboard he says, whilst he desprately tries to look intelligent and cool on a messageboard. He seems to forget a page or two back he was doing the exact same thing he just condemns.

Maybe I am pretentious and arrogant, but it's hard not look down on people when they're as fucking stupid and ignorant as you two quite obviously are.

 

[Masters Apprentice]

PS. You aren't the same Sacrlicisoususosu on SA are you?

 

[Cynical Bastard]

I was merely expressing my opinon before and am not nearly as obsessed with all of this as you are. Just look at yourself... taking things so personal and condemning two people you have never even met as being fucking stupid, along with who knows how many other insults. That's not debating tactics, that's just being rude and making yourself look bad in the process. I can see you don't have the best people skills and probably have some other personal problems that continue to make you so angry on here towards myself and others. So go ahead judging people and being an asshole, I'm sure it will get you far in life.

 

[Masters Apprentice]

So why are you merely expressing an opinion whereas I'm "judging people and being an asshole"?

You people just don't get it, do you? You're all every bit as bad as me, you're just so fucking ignorant you can't see it. If this wasn't important to you, you'd have done the smart, reasonable and mature thing and STOPPED REPLYING. But you can't, because you're fucking desperate to win, to get the last word in, to retain your pride and when you can't continue, you resort to looking down on people who argue on the net. Fucking textbook, my friend..that's what you and all your fucking pals in this thread are.

 

[Sacrilicious]

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
No, punk is punk. Rock is rock. I hope this helped.

No punk is a form of rock you clueless moron. That's why it's called"punk rock", not "punk country," "punk jazz," or "punk classical."

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Oh I get it, so the genre of progressive rock is not for progressive rock bands. Ah, God I'm such an idiot for thinking otherwise.

Not all progressive rock bands. Like I said, if it was then The Ramones would be a progressive rock band.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Radiohead's influences are punk..hmm, The Smiths, Aphex Twin, Sigur Rós and Pink Floyd are punk then are they?

No, Radiohead's original albums are not prog-rock but does that automatically mean they are not prog-rock? With your fantastic logic, Cave-In are still a hardcore metal band even though they now make Foo Fighters endorsed indie rock.

Radiohead predates Sigur Ros. Smiths are not strictly punk but like most "indie rock" bands of that era there are numerous influences from punk and post-punk artists. I don't hear a great deal of Pink Floyd influence in Radiohead's music aside from some of the atomspheric moments. Same with Aphex Twin, just because Radiohead uses a drum machine now doesn't mean he's some huge influence on their sound. The only song of theirs I can think of with a heavy Aphex Twin influence is Idioteque.

Are you saying Radiohead is prog-rock NOW? How? Please, please, please explain. Guitar-driven pop rock is still guitar driven pop-rock even if the guitar parts are played on a synth. Doesn't make it progressive, and certainly doesn't make them more progressive than Tool.

Glad to see you've abandoned the "MBV is prog" thing though, looks like I finally knocked some sense into you on that front.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
I was generalizing

Thank you.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
And any point that quote had is made totally null and void by the amount of people who have attacked my opinions in this topic. I find it hilarious you are all making so much fuss over what I think of music you like. If you were to troll a Radiohead or Godspeed topic, I wouldn't give a fuck.

You are not being attacked because of your opinions you stupid fuck, you are being attacked because you are making personal attacks against other people because they don't share yours and passing off your opinions as fact. Please don't start in with this "WAH WAH WAH POOR ME IS BEING OPPRESSED FOR HAVING A DIFFERENT OPINION OH WOE IS ME" crap.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Haha, you do just realise that what you just "Yawn"'d, you just used. Wow, every sentence you make just takes me down that little bit more!

Glad to see the irony wasn't lost on you, maybe there's some hope yet.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Did they also happen to mention it's impossible to prove that your opinion of a band is right? Because it's exactly that - an opinion. So if you're gonna argue your point, you may as well make it look good.

If you think calling people names makes your argument "look good" then I'm not at all surprised you're such a clueless idiot.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Oh and once again, you do know you're doing the exact same thing as me? You sit up on your pedestal trying to "take me down" by trying to pass YOUR GOD-DAMN OPINION off as the facts. You're every bit as pretentious and arrogant as I am, I'll let you decide how much that is, because I really don't give a fuck what people think of the way I act.

NO YOU FUCKING MORON. I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU FOR HAVING A DIFFERENT OPINION, I AM ATTACKING YOU FOR BEING AN ASSHOLE. THE ONLY REASON YOU FLAMED ANYBODY IN THIS THREAD WAS BECAUSE THEY DISAGREED WITH YOU. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK IF YOU LIKE TOOL OR NOT.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Maybe I am pretentious and arrogant, but it's hard not look down on people when they're as fucking stupid and ignorant as you two quite obviously are.

Stupid and ignorant meaning we disagree with you and, in my case at least, knowing what "prog-rock" means. Okay.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
PS. You aren't the same Sacrlicisoususosu on SA are you?

That's me.

 

[Sacrilicious]

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
So why are you merely expressing an opinion whereas I'm "judging people and being an asshole"?

There's a difference between saying "I like/dislike Tool" and saying "Tool is the best/worst band on the planet and if you can't see that you are obviously a total moron." And yeah I know that was not YOUR EXACT WORDS so please don't bother pointing that out Emperor Intellect of the Smartypants Kingdom.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
You people just don't get it, do you? You're all every bit as bad as me, you're just so fucking ignorant you can't see it. If this wasn't important to you, you'd have done the smart, reasonable and mature thing and STOPPED REPLYING. But you can't, because you're fucking desperate to win, to get the last word in, to retain your pride and when you can't continue, you resort to looking down on people who argue on the net. Fucking textbook, my friend..that's what you and all your fucking pals in this thread are.

What the fuck am I trying to win? I couldn't possibly care less of what a degenerate like you thinks of me or my debate skills. I personally enjoy destroying your illusions of superiority and that is why I am replying to this thread. I dont' look down on you because you don't like Tool or because you disagree with me on whatever, I look down on you because you're an pretentious asshole with a superiority complex. I recognize that my opinion on band x or y is no better or worse than anybody elses. You do not.

 

[Cynical Bastard]

Honestly, I think the difference is I don't go out of my way to offend people or make putting down people part of my debating strategy, because that's just selfishly sidestepping whatever's being discussed for your own feelings of self worth. Hehe, you're right though, I do have a last word problem and I should've stopped replying; I just find these things to interesting to resist, ya know. It's really not an issue of pride, more of a bad habit I guess. Seeya in another thread, where hopefully the arguments will remain mature for the duration... that includes my own contributions as well.

 

[Bleakest Harvest]

This has to have been the most evil thread ever

 

[Masters Apprentice]

Originally posted by Sacrilicious
No punk is a form of rock you clueless moron. That's why it's called"punk rock", not "punk country," "punk jazz," or "punk classical."

Punk isn't punk-rock. Punk-rock is punk-rock. Saying punk is rock is like saying metal is rock.

Not all progressive rock bands. Like I said, if it was then The Ramones would be a progressive rock band.

Like I said, they're punk.

Radiohead predates Sigur Ros.

Sigur Rós pre-date KID A.

Smiths are not strictly punk but like most "indie rock" bands of that era there are numerous influences from punk and post-punk artists.

They are indie-rock so they are also indie-punk, so of course they are punk. Remember rock and punk are the exact same genre!

I don't hear a great deal of Pink Floyd influence in Radiohead's music aside from some of the atomspheric moments
Same with Aphex Twin, just because Radiohead uses a drum machine now doesn't mean he's some huge influence on their sound. The only song of theirs I can think of with a heavy Aphex Twin influence is Idioteque.

Yeah, I'm sorry of course you know Radiohead's influences better than Thom Yorke does. I apologise.

Are you saying Radiohead is prog-rock NOW? How? Please, please, please explain. Guitar-driven pop rock is still guitar driven pop-rock even if the guitar parts are played on a synth. Doesn't make it progressive, and certainly doesn't make them more progressive than Tool.

OK Computer is so fucking obviously prog-rock, it's nothing like the previous two albums that you insist on basing your entire argument around. Surely I don't even have to explain why KID and Amnesiac are?

Glad to see you've abandoned the "MBV is prog" thing though, looks like I finally knocked some sense into you on that front.

I have? Where did I say that? I have already explained my position on that and you haven't came up with nothing that even resembles a good argument against it.

You are not being attacked because of your opinions you stupid fuck, you are being attacked because you are making personal attacks against other people because they don't share yours and passing off your opinions as fact. Please don't start in with this "WAH WAH WAH POOR ME IS BEING OPPRESSED FOR HAVING A DIFFERENT OPINION OH WOE IS ME" crap.

You call me a stupid fuck then comment on me using personal attacks in the same sentence? You continue to outdue yourself on the hypocrite stakes, well done.

Glad to see the irony wasn't lost on you, maybe there's some hope yet.

Oh yeah, you were using irony..right.

If you think calling people names makes your argument "look good" then I'm not at all surprised you're such a clueless idiot.

Haha, there's that irony again.

NO YOU FUCKING MORON. I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU FOR HAVING A DIFFERENT OPINION, I AM ATTACKING YOU FOR BEING AN ASSHOLE. THE ONLY REASON YOU FLAMED ANYBODY IN THIS THREAD WAS BECAUSE THEY DISAGREED WITH YOU. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK IF YOU LIKE TOOL OR NOT.

Go read the topic, people were calling me ignorant, an idiot, an ignorant bastard blah blah blah before I uttered a single insult at anyone and I replied to them in the same way. Anyone who has made a logical post trying to disprove my point other than just saying "you're ignorant for having a different opinion" I have responded reasonably to.

Even then I've still responded to some of those people without insults, but of course I'm the asshole, for standing by my opinions and reacting to being called ignorant when I genuinelly believe I'm not. I admit I exploded into a flaming ball of caps and bold when I was having to respond to many people all saying the same fucking thing and calling me ignorant and an idiot blahhblahidfhjasdfj but like I've said, I've only given out what I've taken. I am not the asshole here.

Stupid and ignorant meaning we disagree with you and, in my case at least, knowing what "prog-rock" means. Okay.

What a great argument!!! I could easily just reply to every insult you make with "I'm only that because you disagree with me" then you'd say "No because you're an asshole" then I'd say only because I disagree with you then you'd reply with..and it's go on and on like that. Just try to look at this from my perspective for a change. Go on, try it.

There's a difference between saying "I like/dislike Tool" and saying "Tool is the best/worst band on the planet and if you can't see that you are obviously a total moron." And yeah I know that was not YOUR EXACT WORDS so please don't bother pointing that out Emperor Intellect of the Smartypants Kingdom.

Why are you telling me this? Why don't you tell the people who said I was "a total moron" for not thinking Tool are progressive?

What the fuck am I trying to win? I couldn't possibly care less of what a degenerate like you thinks of me or my debate skills. I personally enjoy destroying your illusions of superiority and that is why I am replying to this thread. I dont' look down on you because you don't like Tool or because you disagree with me on whatever, I look down on you because you're an pretentious asshole with a superiority complex. I recognize that my opinion on band x or y is no better or worse than anybody elses. You do not.

I have no illusions of superiority for you to destory..but hey, good luck with that. I'd like to see you explain this though, the bands I've compared Tool to are fucking poppy chart-topping bands, what is elitist or pretentious about that? So go on, why am I pretentious or arrogant and why the fuck am I elitist? You're the one who thinks his definition of prog-rock goes beyond the name of the genre, it's some sort of secret club for specific artists..but sure, I'm the elitist here.

I don't know what you think you're achieving, but you have by far the worst arguments anyone has had yet.."punk is rock" "you insult people you fucking idiot" etc. etc. You're only in this to try and be some sort of fucking hero. And failing. Miserably.

 

[Sacrilicious]

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Punk isn't punk-rock. Punk-rock is punk-rock. Saying punk is rock is like saying metal is rock.

WHAT THE FUCK.

They are NOT different. Punk and metal are both derivatives of rock. Please, name me some punk bands and some "punk-rock" bands since the genres are so totally different.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Like I said, they're punk.

Punk-rock.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Sigur Rós pre-date KID A.

Where's the Sigur Ros influence?

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
They are indie-rock so they are also indie-punk, so of course they are punk. Remember rock and punk are the exact same genre!

No, like I said, punk is a derivative of rock. So is prog-rock. So is metal.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Yeah, I'm sorry of course you know Radiohead's influences better than Thom Yorke does. I apologise.

If that's what Thom Yorke says then I guess so.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
OK Computer is so fucking obviously prog-rock, it's nothing like the previous two albums that you insist on basing your entire argument around. Surely I don't even have to explain why KID and Amnesiac are?

Please explain how it is different, and how it resembles a prog-rock band such as Rush, King Crimson, Yes, etc.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
I have? Where did I say that? I have already explained my position on that and you haven't came up with nothing that even resembles a good argument against it.

Judging by the fact that you didn't even try to address them anymore? That's how I came to that conclusion. You do all this talking about Radiohead and completely leave them out of the post. Honestly, have you heard anything pre-Loveless? Anything at all? Even Loveless itself is not a prog-rock record by any stretch of the imagination. Do you even know anything about the shoegazer genre at all?

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
You call me a stupid fuck then comment on me using personal attacks in the same sentence? You continue to outdue yourself on the hypocrite stakes, well done.

Like I said I'm not trying to win an argument here. You have repeatedly stated that you are.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Go read the topic, people were calling me ignorant, an idiot, an ignorant bastard blah blah blah before I uttered a single insult at anyone and I replied to them in the same way. Anyone who has made a logical post trying to disprove my point other than just saying "you're ignorant for having a different opinion" I have responded reasonably to.

Go read your first post. It was very inflamatory and you were obviously asking for such a reaction. If you posted that and expected a bunch of civil replies to it you're an even bigger idiot than I thought. Every single one of your posts in this thread, while they may not have been specifically insulting someone, have been condenscending and arrogant.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
What a great argument!!! I could easily just reply to every insult you make with "I'm only that because you disagree with me" then you'd say "No because you're an asshole" then I'd say only because I disagree with you then you'd reply with..and it's go on and on like that. Just try to look at this from my perspective for a change. Go on, try it.

If you can point out where I've been stupid and ignorant I'd genuinely appreciate it.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Why are you telling me this? Why don't you tell the people who said I was "a total moron" for not thinking Tool are progressive?

Because you started this shitstorm. There was no reason to use the phrasing you did in your first post, it was just asking for responses like this.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
I have no illusions of superiority for you to destory

lol

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
I'd like to see you explain this though, the bands I've compared Tool to are fucking poppy chart-topping bands, what is elitist or pretentious about that? So go on, why am I pretentious or arrogant and why the fuck am I elitist? You're the one who thinks his definition of prog-rock goes beyond the name of the genre, it's some sort of secret club for specific artists..but sure, I'm the elitist here.

It doesn't matter who you compare them to, its your "I'm right you're wrong nyah nyah" attitude that makes you pretentious and elitist. And I'm not saying either Radiohead or My Bloody Valentine are bad bands, I am merely saying they do not fall under "prog-rock". Normally labels and such don't mean shit to me but I'm just using it as an example to show you have no idea what you're talking about. And believe me, you are by far in the minority in thinking that Radiohead and My Bloody Valentine are prog-rock.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
I don't know what you think you're achieving, but you have by far the worst arguments anyone has had yet.."punk is rock" "you insult people you fucking idiot" etc. etc. You're only in this to try and be some sort of fucking hero. And failing. Miserably.

Again I assure you that most everyone would agree with me that punk is another form of rock. So is metal. Disagree? Please explain what makes them two completely disparate musical styles.

 

[Bleakest Harvest]

I'm sittin' here sunnin' tacos, waitin' for the woman in the rose tattoo...my butt is soo loooooose
I like tacos and iced tea, taco bell has them for me...oh my butt hurt so baaaaad
I like tacos and chips and...dip and, love the things that I can get 'n', oh my butt hurts so baaaaad

Thank you!

 

[Bleakest Harvest]

 

[Cynical Bastard]

Punk is an offbranch of rock, so is metal; it's not even debatable.

 

[Masters Apprentice]

If we can put this fucking bravado crap to one side for 5 seconds, I'd like to discuss this like adults.

Originally posted by Sacrilicious
WHAT THE FUCK.

They are NOT different. Punk and metal are both derivatives of rock. Please, name me some punk bands and some "punk-rock" bands since the genres are so totally different.

Punk-rock is just an nicer genre title than "non-pop-punk" like Green Day, Sum41, Blink142 and Bowling 4 Soup..there is quite an obvious fucking difference between that sort of punk and Amen, AFI, Black Flag, NOFX, Converge and the other varients. Perhaps STYLE is the correct word to use in this context, perhaps this is another case of word usage.

I may have been mistaken but I thought that a genre was a way of classifying music, if someone asked you to define what genre AFI or Blink 182 would you tell them rock? And if you told them punk, they'd ask what kind of punk..because there's so many different types, hence why punk-rock is different to punk. That's what a genre is to me, a way of describing music but as I've just been told on MSN some people refer to that as "style".

Oh and Sigur Rós influenced Radiohead because Thom Yorke said they did. I wasn't telling you who I think influenced Radiohead(and I know you've acknowledged this but I'll say it again anyway) I was telling you who Thom Yorke has said time and time again that he did. According to him, The Smiths were his main influence of Pablo Honey along with the Pixies(lol punk lol), REM were an influence of The Bends, Pink Floyd and most of the previous influences for OKC, Sigur Ros and Aphex Twin for KID A and the same Amnesiac as it was recorded at the same time.

And I don't know how to get this through to you, but prog-rock is just rock which is progressive, and it's my opinion that OK Computer is. They've taken the foundations of rock and progressed them to their own unique sound..and they've progressed even more so with KID A and Amnesiac. They've fused the sounds of space/post-rock and IDM with guitars and drums and strings..things that you just don't find on standard rock records. It all goes back to my original point that there is prog-metal like Opeth, and there's prog-metal like Rhapsody...neither sound remotely alike but they have both challenged and progressed the basic sounds of metal.

Judging by the fact that you didn't even try to address them anymore? That's how I came to that conclusion. You do all this talking about Radiohead and completely leave them out of the post. Honestly, have you heard anything pre-Loveless? Anything at all? Even Loveless itself is not a prog-rock record by any stretch of the imagination. Do you even know anything about the shoegazer genre at all?

You know, I mentioned My Bloody Valentine because I'm a fan of them. Of course I've heard Isn't Anything and Esctacy and Wine, you're either trying to patronise me or ridicule the idea of either being prog-rock..or probably both. I think they're prog-rock for the same reasons I've mentioned you have gave absolutely no reasons throughout any of your posts why either of them aren't other than they don't sound like a specific bunch of bands who you classify as prog-rock.

Go read your first post. It was very inflamatory and you were obviously asking for such a reaction. If you posted that and expected a bunch of civil replies to it you're an even bigger idiot than I thought. Every single one of your posts in this thread, while they may not have been specifically insulting someone, have been condenscending and arrogant.

They didn't have to reply at all, it was my opinion then and still is now and no amount of "you ignorant bastard" posts were going to change that. And I still only attacked the music in my first post, not anyone personally but as I've mentioned in a previous post a lot of Tool fans take insults of Tool as personal insults to them.

It doesn't matter who you compare them to, its your "I'm right you're wrong nyah nyah" attitude that makes you pretentious and elitist. And I'm not saying either Radiohead or My Bloody Valentine are bad bands, I am merely saying they do not fall under "prog-rock". Normally labels and such don't mean shit to me but I'm just using it as an example to show you have no idea what you're talking about. And believe me, you are by far in the minority in thinking that Radiohead and My Bloody Valentine are prog-rock.

I don't get where I've told people their opinion is wrong unless they corrected mine first. I won't make any apologies for reacting to someone correcting an opinion and I'll just keep repeating this to you until you comprehend it.

 

[Masters Apprentice]

Originally posted by Cynical Bastard
Punk is an offbranch of rock, so is metal; it's not even debatable.

Who is debating it? I said punk is different from rock and I can't believe anyone would even think of disagreeing..I just don't see the argument there..

edit - oh wait, it looks like I did debate it..haha.

I posted:

"Yes, because the godfathers of punk music are suddenly a rock band."

And then he posted:

"So now punk isn't a form of rock???"

I replied..

"No, punk is punk. Rock is rock. I hope this helped. "


I'll rephrase my original statement to:

"Yes it is, but just because it is doesn't make the Ramones a rock band. They are a punk band..punk music is punk music..rock music is rock music."

I read his question as a follow-up to the original statement, which it was..but I have a feeling he'll say it wasn't.

 

[Sacrilicious]

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Punk-rock is just an nicer genre title than "non-pop-punk" like Green Day, Sum41, Blink142 and Bowling 4 Soup..there is quite an obvious fucking difference between that sort of punk and Amen, AFI, Black Flag, NOFX, Converge and the other varients. Perhaps STYLE is the correct word to use in this context, perhaps this is another case of word usage.

I may have been mistaken but I thought that a genre was a way of classifying music, if someone asked you to define what genre AFI or Blink 182 would you tell them rock? And if you told them punk, they'd ask what kind of punk..because there's so many different types, hence why punk-rock is different to punk. That's what a genre is to me, a way of describing music but as I've just been told on MSN some people refer to that as "style".

You don't seem to understand. Punk is a very large umbrella term. All of those bands you mentioned fall under that umbrella. Rock is an even larger umbrella term, and punk falls under it. The Ramones were a punk band and thus they were also a rock band. I don't see how you can possibly say that punk is a totally seperate entity that has nothing at all to do with rock.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
Oh and Sigur Rós influenced Radiohead because Thom Yorke said they did. I wasn't telling you who I think influenced Radiohead(and I know you've acknowledged this but I'll say it again anyway) I was telling you who Thom Yorke has said time and time again that he did. According to him, The Smiths were his main influence of Pablo Honey along with the Pixies(lol punk lol), REM were an influence of The Bends, Pink Floyd and most of the previous influences for OKC, Sigur Ros and Aphex Twin for KID A and the same Amnesiac as it was recorded at the same time.

Exactly. Smiths, Pixies, and REM are all post-punk bands. While they have built on that in their following albums influences from those bands still form the foundation of their songwriting.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
And I don't know how to get this through to you, but prog-rock is just rock which is progressive, and it's my opinion that OK Computer is. They've taken the foundations of rock and progressed them to their own unique sound..and they've progressed even more so with KID A and Amnesiac. They've fused the sounds of space/post-rock and IDM with guitars and drums and strings..things that you just don't find on standard rock records. It all goes back to my original point that there is prog-metal like Opeth, and there's prog-metal like Rhapsody...neither sound remotely alike but they have both challenged and progressed the basic sounds of metal.

I'm not saying Radiohead is not progressive, I am saying the term "prog-rock" refers to a specific genre of music and Radiohead does not fall into that genre. This is not a difficult term to grasp.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
You know, I mentioned My Bloody Valentine because I'm a fan of them. Of course I've heard Isn't Anything and Esctacy and Wine, you're either trying to patronise me or ridicule the idea of either being prog-rock..or probably both. I think they're prog-rock for the same reasons I've mentioned you have gave absolutely no reasons throughout any of your posts why either of them aren't other than they don't sound like a specific bunch of bands who you classify as prog-rock.

You act as if my statement that prog-rock for the most part refers to bands like King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Rush, ELP, Gentle Giant etc. is just some arbitrary thing I made up. It's not. There is a general consensus in the music world that this style of music is progressive rock. My Bloody Valentine is progressive, but they are not part of that genre. This really isn't very complicated.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
They didn't have to reply at all, it was my opinion then and still is now and no amount of "you ignorant bastard" posts were going to change that. And I still only attacked the music in my first post, not anyone personally but as I've mentioned in a previous post a lot of Tool fans take insults of Tool as personal insults to them.

You were still arrogant and condenscending, there was no need for that and you were just asking for flames.

Originally posted by Masters Apprentice
I don't get where I've told people their opinion is wrong unless they corrected mine first. I won't make any apologies for reacting to someone correcting an opinion and I'll just keep repeating this to you until you comprehend it.

You didn't flat out state "my opinion is right, yours is wrong." However you act as if your opinion is the only correct one and as a result any opinion contrary to your one true, correct opinion must be wrong.

 

[Masters Apprentice]

Fair points.

I always have (and will) consider a rock band who are progressive to be prog-rock. If people in the "music world" disagree, then so be it. I've just never heard of this universal agreement on the term before, so I'm probably wrong in the eyes of genre nazi's.

I DO know what you're getting at though, the term post-rock or independent-rock which refers to bands like Godspeed You! Black EMperor, Exhaust, Fly Pan Am and the like is the same, it's not a description of the sound but rather the title of the movement. And I recently had a similar discussion with a guy at my uni who claimed "Hell Is for Heroes" were post-rock...when they are just part of the garage rock revival thing going on.

One final thing reguarding rock, punk and metal genres..in practical terms..why would you ever call The Ramones a rock band? True it might be technically correct, but what is the point? It would be like asking for "a fruit" when you know you want "an apple"..that was really my entire point on the subject.