Please for the love of GOD, someone enlighten me...

skyrefuge said:
If the Internet had been around 30 or 40 years ago when Iron Maiden or Black Sabbath first started posting their videos on YouTube, this same thread would have existed, only with different names. Maybe on an Elvis Presley forum:

"Check out this band Black Sabbath, just signed by the formerly-prestigious Philips Records. This stuff is utter garbage and pointless noise!"

And they would have thought they were just as self-aware:

"Yeah, sure, when I started listening to Elvis Presley, my dad said it was the devil's music and kicked me out of the house, but that was clearly just a generational difference; he couldn't wrap his mind around the new sounds of rock'n'roll. But this "heavy metal"? No, THIS is different! This is much more than just a generational difference (after all, I'm still cool and not a set-in-his-ways old man like he was!) This IS objectively worse, in a way that is scientifically demonstrable, in a way that has never been seen before in the history of music. Finally, after years of false alarms about the downfall of music from one generation to the next, we finally have the REAL alarm. Mark my words, this so-called "Black Sabbath" will destroy music forevermore!"

Oh, and btw, I'm an uncool set-in-his-ways old man too, because I think Design the Skyline is terrible (or really epic joke/trolling). But at least I'm aware of how old I am!

Neil
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I can sort of agree with you on this... But I also believe that this "new" generation-situation is the product of a political move by a record label rather than some band trying to be 'different'. These kids are probably 18 unless their parents co-signed their victory contract, which to me makes them the n00bs of MY generation considering that I'm (we as 7K) are only 3-5 years older than them on a general outlook. I was all about making everyone hate the music that i listened to back in my short hair and hardcore days in 05'/06' but there was still nothing this terrible...

So ya I don't really consider that to be a fair comparison. Back then they were saying it was the devils music and everyone that listens to metal loves iron maden and sabbath. Today we have a band that isn't the "devils music" but is rather just referred to as "shit", and most metal heads hate it too. Also considering the fact that the hardcore bands of old never really tried to sing, I firmly believe that parents are encouraging their kids to do so, and this is why we see so many young hardcore bands autotuned because that was the easiest and cheapest way to get a note that they cant hit recorded. they bring it to their (probably clueless about metal anyways) parents and say hey mom! dad! hear this...so they can tolerate being part of their kids lives.

All that Remains made it popular in that "this calling" song. I believe that the whole metal-core mixed with singing choruses spawned from that first then got thrashed a few years later once the TPain auto tune iPhone app came out and exposed that way of cheating singing. You know, kids now days all have iPhones....
 
If the Internet had been around 30 or 40 years ago when Iron Maiden or Black Sabbath first started posting their videos on YouTube, this same thread would have existed, only with different names. Maybe on an Elvis Presley forum:
Click to expand...

I think the key difference - and I say this a guy who isn't a huge fan of Black Sabbath's early output - That at the time, Sabbath were actually doing something different. Now, see, there are TONS of these "br00tal" type bands floating around now all trying to ape one another's sound and appearance, and as far as I know, there wasn't anything notably similar going on in the UK 'roud sabbath's time.

For the record, i'm 25, and virtually -just outside- the target demographic.

The point of my psot is basically to illustrate that it's not *that* different from the previous generation's behavior, with some differences that I personally like even less (The lack of sincerity, which is fairly obvious in most of these death-core type bands.)

At the same time there are a lot of bands from "this generation" that I find totally awesome, it's sut my criticism of this particular style of modern music (Of which there are many.)
 
I don't really think it's fair either, after all we are discussing the whys and hows of the reasoning behind our 'ickkkk!' at 'new stuff', rather than just pointing out that 'new stuff' is ick and calling it a day. Regardless, there is always a reason behind a reaction and that's what is important to focus on. Comparing very different sets of parameters because they share the same reaction won't really get a discussion anywhere. Most of us have a love for the music we like which is based off a lot more than it came from so-and-so era or so on. A lot of other times in the history of the stuff here in America, you'd get laughed at for taking any entertainment anywhere at all seriously in the first place.
 
Two points:

1) I didn't intend the Black Sabbath example to be analyzed so specifically. Substitute any artist from any era who you love but someone else completely doesn't understand. Meshuggah. Lady Gaga. Ocrilim. Kenny G. Wu Tang. Whoever. EVERY artist has people who think they are terrible, but that doesn't mean they ARE terrible in some objective sense. Someone who listens solely to classical composers would think ALL of the mentioned artists (including Design the Skyline) are terrible. And they'd be wrong, which means that we must also be wrong if we think Design the Skyline is objectively terrible.

2) Being an "old man" is not tied to your date of birth, it's a state of mind. So it's quite easy to be a 20-year-old old man. We're all here posting on a forum dedicated to bands who essentially mimic styles that were invented over 20 years ago. When I was growing up in the 80s, my dad listened to an "oldies" station that played these songs from way back in the early history of rock'n'roll. It turns out the songs being played then were actually only about 20 years old at the time. In other words, when we listen to prog/power metal today, it's exactly like my dad in the 80s listening to "oldies" from the 50s/60s. We are all "oldies" listeners. So regardless of our calendar age, we're all in a terrible position to understand the minds of "young people".

That said, I don't see any indication that anyone (young or old) actually likes DtS, so in this case I think they're not much of a threat to music-as-we-know-it.

Neil
 
DuchessOfDork said:
So, quick question..

What makes Converge better than these guys? 'cuz I recall getting shit for not liking Converge before. >_> My only clue is that Converge has a kind of melody sometimes for a few seconds? And I've heard that they do really weird time signatures?

Is that it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjZMySPcQfI
Click to expand...

Converge is absolutely atrocious. Terrible band. Even worse live.
 
DuchessOfDork said:
So, quick question..

What makes Converge better than these guys? 'cuz I recall getting shit for not liking Converge before. >_> My only clue is that Converge has a kind of melody sometimes for a few seconds? And I've heard that they do really weird time signatures?

Is that it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjZMySPcQfI
Click to expand...

Implying that Converge sounds anything like Design The Skyline is like saying Slipknot sounds like Hammerfall.

Converge is not going to appeal to most true metallers on here, but they are legends in the hardcore scene that have put out some of the most pissed off, ferocious music known to man. Ballou's riffs are also inhuman. I have no idea how he is able to play some of the shit he plays. But yeah, sorry it's not beautiful and symphonic or whatever.
 
DuchessOfDork said:
I dunno, I think that's an unfair comparison. Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath may be different, but they do have real vocalists who can sing well. Or at least Ozzy did, before all the drugs. >_> Their original album was some really bluesy stuff! And their songs have melodies.. harmonies.. stuff like that.
Click to expand...

This is a ridiculous argument. Tom Waits, Louis Armstrong, James Brown, and tons of other singers don't "sing" like Bruce Dickinson, but they are considered among the best. Can't you just understand that opinions are like assholes and everyone has one instead of hopelessly attempting at quantifying them?

I hate Design The Skyline, I think it's awful scene garbage, but I also like Asking Alexandria who is huge right now with the Warped Tour Crowd, and think Attack Attack's last album had some great songs. I understand that there are people who like DTS and probably think power metal is bad. Nobody is wrong or right, it's just different perspectives.
 
Metal_Camden said:
All that Remains made it popular in that "this calling" song. I believe that the whole metal-core mixed with singing choruses spawned from that first then got thrashed a few years later once the TPain auto tune iPhone app came out and exposed that way of cheating singing. You know, kids now days all have iPhones....
Click to expand...

Uh bro, Killswitch was going gold when All That Remains' second album came out. Fear Factory was doing the screamed verses and sung choruses in the 90's.
 
skyrefuge said:
Two points:

1) I didn't intend the Black Sabbath example to be analyzed so specifically. Substitute any artist from any era who you love but someone else completely doesn't understand. Meshuggah. Lady Gaga. Ocrilim. Kenny G. Wu Tang. Whoever. EVERY artist has people who think they are terrible, but that doesn't mean they ARE terrible in some objective sense. Someone who listens solely to classical composers would think ALL of the mentioned artists (including Design the Skyline) are terrible. And they'd be wrong, which means that we must also be wrong if we think Design the Skyline is objectively terrible.

2) Being an "old man" is not tied to your date of birth, it's a state of mind. So it's quite easy to be a 20-year-old old man. We're all here posting on a forum dedicated to bands who essentially mimic styles that were invented over 20 years ago. When I was growing up in the 80s, my dad listened to an "oldies" station that played these songs from way back in the early history of rock'n'roll. It turns out the songs being played then were actually only about 20 years old at the time. In other words, when we listen to prog/power metal today, it's exactly like my dad in the 80s listening to "oldies" from the 50s/60s. We are all "oldies" listeners. So regardless of our calendar age, we're all in a terrible position to understand the minds of "young people".

That said, I don't see any indication that anyone (young or old) actually likes DtS, so in this case I think they're not much of a threat to music-as-we-know-it.

Neil
Click to expand...

I can't be entirely sure which portions of this post are directed at mine (that's why I use quotes. for clarity :)) so I'm just going to reply to the parts I disagree with, and also to clear up what I think to be a misunderstanding (which might be due in part to the fact that -other- people's reactions are making mine seem more emotionally charged than it actually is.)

1) No argument here, but I think the comparisons would be improved by using a band of similar popularity and propensity for coat-tail riding, rather than some of the (relatively speaking) Trailblazing artists you're mentioning. Controversial, yeah (in the case of Converge, I don't "get" them, but I don't think it's valid to compare them to DtS at all.)
HOWEVER: your point about it being "bad' because it doesn't conform to "our" expectations of what good music is (at least I think that's the message behind what you're sayin? correct me if I'm wrong.) is somewhat clouded by using a loaded example in Sabbath.

There does seem to be a tendency around here for people tend to lump Exhibit A in with "Everything else I don't like" without really putting much thought into it. If the only thing two bands have in common is that you don't like them, I don't -expect- you're really going to spend any time dissecting it's elements, but that doesn't make obviously invalid inferences suddenly more valid.

2) I don't feel like it's fair to say a person is thinking "old" by disliking this stuff, since there is plenty of modern stuff that is good. It's rather implying that deathcore type shit is the only "young" music there is, which is plainly, not true.



About harsh verse and sung vocals
Novembers Doom? My Dying Bride? Pretty sure they've both done that. Now that i'm thinking about it there are a shitton of great bands that make use of that dynamic that ahve very little, if anything in common with the bands being reviled here.
 
anyone on this board with a valid opinion on CONVERGE is laughable at best, sorry MM. they are possibly one of the best and most influential hardcore bands of the 90's both musically and visually. If you have never been up front singing along at a Converge show then you have never "seen" them. hardcore is about full on participation unlike attending a PP event. sure we all head bang, but there is something a little more special when people are whizzing by your head and the dudes in the band are sweating all over you. I bet even Glenn can say it was pretty awesome to stage dive at his own festival.

Converge's Jane Doe was a hall of fame inductee
hoflogo.jpg

http://www.decibelmagazine.com/hall-of-fame/converge/

also i am pretty sure they had THREE albums in Decibel's 100 albums of the 2000s.

you guys may not "get" why they are as big as they are, but the hardcore scene does.
 
TribunalRecords said:
anyone on this board with a valid opinion on CONVERGE is laughable at best, sorry MM. they are possibly one of the best and most influential hardcore bands of the 90's both musically and visually. If you have never been up front singing along at a Converge show then you have never "seen" them. hardcore is about full on participation unlike attending a PP event. sure we all head bang, but there is something a little more special when people are whizzing by your head and the dudes in the band are sweating all over you. I bet even Glenn can say it was pretty awesome to stage dive at his own festival.

Converge's Jane Doe was a hall of fame inductee
hoflogo.jpg

http://www.decibelmagazine.com/hall-of-fame/converge/

also i am pretty sure they had THREE albums in Decibel's 100 albums of the 2000s.

you guys may not "get" why they are as big as they are, but the hardcore scene does.
Click to expand...

I *HATE* hardcore, so your response is fair to me. I saw them open for Deathklok and Mastodon on that tour and was pretty close to the front, and thought they were boring as hell, and hated every minute of it. To be fair, I also hated Mastodon that night, and I liked them the previous time I saw them. Honestly though, I'm not familiar with their material outside of a couple of songs here and there that I've heard in passing, and this time of seeing them live, but they seemed VERY sloppy up there. Just my opinion.
 
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