Races

[Vimana]

You guys fail to see the impact of environment on nature. No shit blacks commit a lot of crimes. But it is not because they are black. As I said about the stubbing my toe thing, you guys fail to look at other factors that could impact their criminality and just assume it is because of the genetic makeup. So far biologists have not been able to prove that different races have different intelligence genes. This is coming from my human biology textbook from last year. Not some of those tiny little sites you guys seem to dig up to support your own arguments. Black people are poor because of racism, and poor environments breed crime.

 

[Vimana]

The poverty and crime link is nonsense because poverty has existed in the past in white societies without a similar level of crime - while there is no society of mixed Africans that is not brutally violent.

Ever heard of the handshake? You know why it was invented? Because in Europe peasants were killing each other with knives a lot. They would shake each other arms to show there was no knife up their sleeve. And besides, sentences for crimes were much worse back then.

Pre-historic Native American legends tell of white men with beards landing on the shores of the New World, bringing knowledge of science, engineering, and laws, and more. In the legends, they arrived in huge ships with swan wings, and the strange fair-skin.

In pre-historic times white people had no ships or any of that stuff, or any great knowledge of science or engineering. Pre-historic means before history. And white people didn't even have the first civilizations.

 

[razoredge]

I have a strong sense of funk rhythmn... does this mean there is a black decendent in my pasty white Limey blood line ? har har

I do seem to understand most what Aapep (artist formally known as F&F) is saying about using the US crime stats as a basis, considering the social conditions of black America but none the less you do have to consider the violence that went on in Africa... black on black during the past decades, as well as how this same condition was the factual roote of slavery in the "New World". Still everyone has to realize that mankind has a waring, brutal history that no race is exempt from. Its just that todays "white" culture is full of do gooder, wankerism that has allowed weaker examples to survive and establish a strong hold, controlling laws, economy and social "correctness"... only when it suits their personal interests, hyprocracy abounds

 

[Volve]

because culture is ONLY PARTIALLY genetic, i don't think anyone said that culture is COMPLETELY genetic

Yes, that's just so convinient isn't it.

I have studied at socialanthropology. Culture is something that changes all the time. It is not constant. Like in Africa and New Guinea anthropologist are not liked because they worked together with the colonists to control the indiginous people. In one instance a ritual of war between tribes was banned because it apparently was unhuman. Now it is being used to teach students to be carefull about what they say. Anthropologists should only observe, not do anything to change the culture they're studying.

My point with this is that culture can be changed. It's not constant. That contradicts the thought of culture being genetic.

 

[Haukrinn]

Yes, that's just so convinient isn't it.

I have studied at socialanthropology. Culture is something that changes all the time. It is not constant. Like in Africa and New Guinea anthropologist are not liked because they worked together with the colonists to control the indiginous people. In one instance a ritual of war between tribes was banned because it apparently was unhuman. Now it is being used to teach students to be carefull about what they say. Anthropologists should only observe, not do anything to change the culture they're studying.

My point with this is that culture can be changed. It's not constant. That contradicts the thought of culture being genetic.

Yes, but culture changes because it's partially genetic and not completely genetic. Understand? There are constants and universals in human culture. You might want to check out Donald E. Brown's list of human universals, for example.

The logic here is quite simple. Family members behave in more similar ways to one another because they're genetically more alike to each other than they are to non-family members. Likewise, individuals of the same ethnic group will behave more like each other than to individuals of other ethnic groups because of greater genetic similarity between members of the same ethnic group compared to individuals of different ethnic groups.

Arcording to your argument, then europeans shouldn't like rock music (from which metal evolved). Afterall, it's a black invention. And how about the increasing number of black people on the metal scene? Is their DNA mixed up?

I don't know, every time I either go to a metal gig or see footage of metal gigs on the net/TV I just see a sea of white faces. I've never even met a non-white metal fan, to be honest. Not that they don't exist or anything but they're certainly a rarity, so to speak.

As for the idea that heavy metal is somehow the offshoot of a black invention, well, that's just plain wrong in my opinion. Metal comes from rock which mostly comes from blues, gospel, folk and country. The folk music in question was Scots-Irish folk music played by immigrants who came to America from Scotland and Ireland. Blues and country, were themselves originally based on this Scots-Irish folk music, though blues included much traditional African influence. Gospel, also had heavy African influences, despite originally being based on the religious music of the Scottish and Irish immigrants. So, blues and gospel were just Africanised versions of traditional Celtic music really. Now, I don't know exactly what metal you listen to, but I listen to death/black/folk metal, and it's mostly these styles of metal that have no black elements or influences left in them. Metal musicians have, without intending to, completely removed black influences from their music, on the one hand and added many aspects of European classical and folk music on the other. Indeed, the Jewish-British sociology scholar Keith Kahn-Harris noted that one of the most striking facts about extreme metal is its complete lack of influence from black music. You have to ask the question, then, why did white musicians take music of bi-racial origins and unwittingly remove all of the black elements?

 

[monoxide_child]

Black people are poor because of racism, and poor environments breed crime.

racism makes black peple criminals
if a crime is commited, with 2 suspects, one white the other black, than the black guy will get handcuffed before the white guy (when nicole brown simpson was first killed there was actually a white suspect for about 2 minutes) because of racism
if a cop sees a white guy and a black guy both speeding, the cop is pulling over the black guy instead of the white guy
if a situation comes up where the cop has descretionary power of either handcuffing the person or writing a ticket, a random white cop will handcuff a black guy and give the ticket to a white guy
when a white guy and a black guy go to arrainment, the DA is more willing to "cut a deal" with a white guy over a black guy
when a white guy and a black guy both technically violate probation/parole, the probation/parole officers send the black guy back to prison instead of the white guy
white guy and a black guy go to trial, the white guy is more likely to get found innocent than the black guy, when both a white guy and a black guy are both found guilty, the white guy more likely to get probation or will get a lesser sentence/parole earlier than the black guy

yes there is definately a genetic component affecting black people's behavior, but racism is also a factor

black people make up only 12% of the population, but black people also make up an entire 60% of the prison population

that can't be purely genetic predisposition tword crime or purely racism, it's clearly a combination of the 2

 

[Haukrinn]

racism makes black peple criminals
if a crime is commited, with 2 suspects, one white the other black, than the black guy will get handcuffed before the white guy (when nicole brown simpson was first killed there was actually a white suspect for about 2 minutes) because of racism
if a cop sees a white guy and a black guy both speeding, the cop is pulling over the black guy instead of the white guy
if a situation comes up where the cop has descretionary power of either handcuffing the person or writing a ticket, a random white cop will handcuff a black guy and give the ticket to a white guy
when a white guy and a black guy go to arrainment, the DA is more willing to "cut a deal" with a white guy over a black guy
when a white guy and a black guy both technically violate probation/parole, the probation/parole officers send the black guy back to prison instead of the white guy
white guy and a black guy go to trial, the white guy is more likely to get found innocent than the black guy, when both a white guy and a black guy are both found guilty, the white guy more likely to get probation or will get a lesser sentence/parole earlier than the black guy

yes there is definately a genetic component affecting black people's behavior, but racism is also a factor

black people make up only 12% of the population, but black people also make up an entire 60% of the prison population

that can't be purely genetic predisposition tword crime or purely racism, it's clearly a combination of the 2

I can see where you're coming from there, but some of what you were describing is not racism but common racial profiling. Racial profiling is a neccessary and important police technique and black police officers are more likely to stop black citizens than white citizens also, simply because blacks commit so much more crime than do whites. An analogy can be seen in the way the police treat men differently from women because of mens greater propensity towards criminal behaviour.

 

[monoxide_child]

I can see where you're coming from there, but some of what you were describing is not racism but common racial profiling. Racial profiling is a neccessary and important police technique and black police officers are more likely to stop black citizens than white citizens also, simply because blacks commit so much more crime than do whites. An analogy can be seen in the way the police treat men differently from women because of mens greater propensity towards criminal behaviour.

the NAACP would say that "racial profiling" is wrong

 

[Haukrinn]

the NAACP would say that "racial profiling" is wrong

That's because the NAACP is a joke of an organisation which spends all of its time, money and resources promoting the baseless idea that 'white racism' is the cause of all black failure. If racial profiling is in any way to blame for the higher black imprisonment rate, etc. then predominately white police forces would also target, arrest and imprison Asians more than whites, which they don't.

Nobody has a problem with gender profiling, as everyone accepts that men commit significantly more crime than women do. And so, any sensible person will also understand a certain amount of racial profiling to be a necessity. It's just common sense.

 

[Chanakya]

In India right now Hindus are massacring Christians - and they hate Muslims too.

I agree with your whole statement. The Hindus do hate Muslims. I am a Hindu[at least was born one]and I hear the people around me bickering about trivial things regarding Muslims right after a blast or something[Our capital city experienced serial blasts yesterday evening]. It actually sounds like a Philosopher's words. But I have to butt in and say that Hindus are not massacring Catholics. Lets just say that extremists keep taking a hit at each other while we get caught in the crossfire. Half my friends are Catholics, and it is a little offensive when you said that Hindus are massacring Christians. And its not exactly a massacre that is taking place. Its more of desecrating of Churches and an incident in an Orphanage run by Catholic institutions[Incidents like these make me disgusted to be an Indian]. A nun was brutally murdered.

Sorry to divert the topic.

 

[Vimana]

racism makes black peple criminals

Yes. And its not genetics. Thats just bullshit, isn't it strange how blacks somehow have this crime gene that manifested itself during the European oppression? Genetics doesn't work that way.

 

[Caladan]

Agreed.



Thats the most sense I've heard in a while.

Sweet. I guess this means you believe that all americans of european origin should now return to good ol' Europe?

 

[Caladan]

If culture is genetic then why don't you see blacks in the inner city carrying baskets on their heads, playing djembes and singing village songs?

Hahaha. I love you, whoever you are. Simply genius.

 

[Caladan]

Yes, but culture changes because it's partially genetic and not completely genetic. Understand? There are constants and universals in human culture. You might want to check out Donald E. Brown's list of human universals, for example.

The logic here is quite simple. Family members behave in more similar ways to one another because they're genetically more alike to each other than they are to non-family members. Likewise, individuals of the same ethnic group will behave more like each other than to individuals of other ethnic groups because of greater genetic similarity between members of the same ethnic group compared to individuals of different ethnic groups.



I don't know, every time I either go to a metal gig or see footage of metal gigs on the net/TV I just see a sea of white faces. I've never even met a non-white metal fan, to be honest. Not that they don't exist or anything but they're certainly a rarity, so to speak.

As for the idea that heavy metal is somehow the offshoot of a black invention, well, that's just plain wrong in my opinion. Metal comes from rock which mostly comes from blues, gospel, folk and country. The folk music in question was Scots-Irish folk music played by immigrants who came to America from Scotland and Ireland. Blues and country, were themselves originally based on this Scots-Irish folk music, though blues included much traditional African influence. Gospel, also had heavy African influences, despite originally being based on the religious music of the Scottish and Irish immigrants. So, blues and gospel were just Africanised versions of traditional Celtic music really. Now, I don't know exactly what metal you listen to, but I listen to death/black/folk metal, and it's mostly these styles of metal that have no black elements or influences left in them. Metal musicians have, without intending to, completely removed black influences from their music, on the one hand and added many aspects of European classical and folk music on the other. Indeed, the Jewish-British sociology scholar Keith Kahn-Harris noted that one of the most striking facts about extreme metal is its complete lack of influence from black music. You have to ask the question, then, why did white musicians take music of bi-racial origins and unwittingly remove all of the black elements?

No. Not africanised versions of Celtic music. AFRICAN versions of celtic songs. The only thing celtic that remained in most of those songs were the words. The fact that music has always been one of the least moderated/ most liberal industries explains why a lot of people of african descent have been successful in this genre.

And I listen mainly to metalcore/nu-metal. There is still a lot of mixed influences in that genre, from east european/asian to african. While I do agree that a vast majority of the fans are still white (like R&B in the 70s and 80s), that dynamic is changing both on and off the stage.

I can't explain why "white americans" (If such a description still exists) removed biracial influences from their music if this really is true (I very much doubt that ALL african influence has been removed, probably a perception issue). That's the interesting thing about music - it moves and it changes, everyone just hooks into what they like and they roll with it. And who says that what is now regarded as "folk" doesn't have any influences from the mainland of africa?

There could be any number of reasons why people of african descent traditionally avoid metal - I remember the humiliation of going to my first rock concert at the Koko in the early-mid nineties with a friend who is biracial. I remember the indignities of being shuffled into a bathroom to be practically strip-searched for drugs, followed up later on in the club of being constantly approached by people who were convinced, CONVINCED! that we were definitely peddling pills. It took a while for him to recover from that experience I tell you. This is apart from the fact that back in the 80s, the white supremacists very often hung out in the hard rock areas, so it was probably not healthy for a black man to go there.

 

[Caladan]

That's because the NAACP is a joke of an organisation which spends all of its time, money and resources promoting the baseless idea that 'white racism' is the cause of all black failure. If racial profiling is in any way to blame for the higher black imprisonment rate, etc. then predominately white police forces would also target, arrest and imprison Asians more than whites, which they don't.

Nobody has a problem with gender profiling, as everyone accepts that men commit significantly more crime than women do. And so, any sensible person will also understand a certain amount of racial profiling to be a necessity. It's just common sense.

May I interject breifly here. Hauk - I have no doubt that you're a logical person - I have seen many of your arguments on this thread, and while I do agree that you're making a lot of logical conclusions, I however argue that you're not analysing all the data - seeing the big picture. I'll try to present my opinion of this in the next few lines.

Firstly - if the whites didn't prevent black people from holding good jobs, didn't create glass ceilings in corporations, and use other forms of strong arm tactics to disenfranchise and dehumanise people of african origin, I would insist that urban black culture wouldn't have taken to crime in the large droves that they currently have. Crime (as well as music) is an extremely liberal "industry", which pays it's rewards regardless of race. When you create a situation of high pressure and tension, there is a tendency for things to collapse. When they do collapse, it's a much more difficult task repairing. The situation in the USA today is indeed largely due opression by white supremacists. However the NAACP also are of the opinion that they could have done better, they could have held their family units together better, that sort of thing. There is joint blame on both parties in my opinion, and this has nothing to do with DNA.

The fact that Asians didn't react in the same way can be due to so many different reasons - possibly they didn't have the kind of numbers as the blacks did, etc, etc. Again, matter of culture and experience, not genetics. Afterall the asians didn't have the SAME experiences as black people did, neither do they have the numbers.

 

[monoxide_child]

That's because the NAACP is a joke of an organisation which spends all of its time, money and resources promoting the baseless idea that 'white racism' is the cause of all black failure.

the NAACP is a joke of an orginization because "black failure" is, at least partially, the result of "black culture"

 

[monoxide_child]

Firstly - if the whites didn't prevent black people from holding good jobs, didn't create glass ceilings in corporations, and use other forms of strong arm tactics to disenfranchise and dehumanise people of african origin, I would insist that urban black culture wouldn't have taken to crime in the large droves that they currently have. Crime (as well as music) is an extremely liberal "industry", which pays it's rewards regardless of race. When you create a situation of high pressure and tension, there is a tendency for things to collapse. When they do collapse, it's a much more difficult task repairing. The situation in the USA today is indeed largely due opression by white supremacists. However the NAACP also are of the opinion that they could have done better, they could have held their family units together better, that sort of thing. There is joint blame on both parties in my opinion, and this has nothing to do with DNA.

yes
black culture (in America) today is PARTIALLY the result of a snowball effect of how blacks were treated before the civil rights movement, and how they couldn't handle their newfound freedom, but to say that today's black culture is COMPLETELY the result of white supremisists, that's bullshit

 

[Caladan]

yes
black culture (in America) today is PARTIALLY the result of a snowball effect of how blacks were treated before the civil rights movement, and how they couldn't handle their newfound freedom, but to say that today's black culture is COMPLETELY the result of white supremisists, that's bullshit

Again that little snippet "couldn't handle their newfound freedom". Naah. I can't accept that. They handled their freedom well enough, at least as well as they were permitted to handle it.

What NAACP claims is that without the white supremacy and jim crow movements, the blacks in the states would NOT be the way they are now. They'd be much better assimilated into the american culture, and most americans would be even more mixed-race.
The current culture has NOTHING to do with blacks not being able to handle their newfound freedom - that's the same line that the jim crow enthusiasts and the white supremacists used to supress the black people.

 

[Vimana]

yes
black culture (in America) today is PARTIALLY the result of a snowball effect of how blacks were treated before the civil rights movement, and how they couldn't handle their newfound freedom, but to say that today's black culture is COMPLETELY the result of white supremisists, that's bullshit

Partially? Lol! Oh no, I fell down, and it was partially that I was tripped, and mostly that I fall because I have a falling gene. Seriously monoxide, leave your little room in your moms basement that stinks of old pizza and learn about the world.

 

[Caladan]

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/liv...RACE.ART_ART_07-26-08_A1_CPARN6L.html?sid=101

What do the Latinos have that blacks don't? Are they so much more privileged?

Something about western societies is disadvantaging those of African origin. They should live where they don't face those difficulties and expectations to fall in line with foreign standards - amongst their own kind.

Heh. So true. That "thing" is called racism/discrimination.


By the way, there is a line of thought that the current african look is an adaptation. In other words, original man who lived in africa wasn't as dark skinned as the current african, and had straight, not curly hair.

Also - what the latinos have that the blacks don't have? How about a sense of identity/belonging. The blacks were stripped of that feature sometime between the early 1500s when they were brought to the US as slaves, and... the 1960s when they were finally allowed to vote.