Races

[10293847]

This debate over intelligence is silly. "Intelligence" is not the right word to use here, because intelligence becomes associated with words like, "better", and, "superior", which is not the case.

Europeans and Africans are different, that much is clear. The focus should be on what works best for each group, as opposed to saying that certain races do things worse or better.

The Europeans created automobiles, for example, to get from one point to another faster, where the land is flat and open. This is a great invention to accomplish this. The Indians of Brazil, on the other hand, would find this vehicle useless. These Indians in the rainforest would be better off with a machete in order to cut a path through the jungle. Different environments need specific tools to accomplish certain tasks.

The Europeans and the Indians don't have the same goals or the same ideals. That is the key here. The high-tech, fast pace lifestyle of Europeans may not be what other peoples throughout the world want. For the Europeans, or any race for that matter, to instill their own ways upon others and to claim that their ways are better is illogical. People don't live the same, and no one should expect them to. Why certain people developed a certain way of living in their small portion of the world is irrelevant. The point is that they did, and it works for them, and that's all that should matter.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

This debate over intelligence is silly. "Intelligence" is not the right word to use here, because intelligence becomes associated with words like, "better", and, "superior", which is not the case.

Europeans and Africans are different, that much is clear. The focus should be on what works best for each group, as opposed to saying that certain races do things worse or better.

The Europeans created automobiles, for example, to get from one point to another faster, where the land is flat and open. This is a great invention to accomplish this. The Indians of Brazil, on the other hand, would find this vehicle useless. These Indians in the rainforest would be better off with a machete in order to cut a path through the jungle. Different environments need specific tools to accomplish certain tasks.

The Europeans and the Indians don't have the same goals or the same ideals. That is the key here. The high-tech, fast pace lifestyle of Europeans may not be what other peoples throughout the world want. For the Europeans, or any race for that matter, to instill their own ways upon others and to claim that their ways are better is illogical. People don't live the same, and no one should expect them to. Why certain people developed a certain way of living in their small portion of the world is irrelevant. The point is that they did, and it works for them, and that's all that should matter.

People eat, people get sick...in lieu of 'better', in lieu I shall use 'productive' and 'effective'. Among the fruits of European civilization is the most productive agricultural system upon the face of this earth. The labour of one farmer now feeds hundreds. Additionally, it is by the labour of white scientists and doctors that diseases that have once plagued the earth have been eradicated, and when one gets sick, there are non-voodoo remedies available.

As for the rainforest, we have motorboats for that, but who would want to reside in a vermin-infested swamp if given the choice?

Relativism only goes so far.

As for conversion, being libertarian, let them partake in their own ways so long as they do not make me a party to any of their nonsense or hooliganism.

 

[10293847]

As for conversion, being libertarian, let them partake in their own ways so long as they do not make me a party to any of their nonsense or hooliganism.

Well, that was the point of my post. Let them live in their own ways. Clearly, you're not a fan of the ways in which they live, which proves my point. European cultures for Europeans, Africa for Africans, etc. etc. etc.

So what is the point in comparing the two? For your own self-induced ego trip? Thanks for the contribution.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

So what is the point in comparing the two? For your own self-induced ego trip? Thanks for the contribution.

It is necessary the two be compared because multiculturalism is predicated upon the inherent equality of cultures. Honour killings anyone?

 

[metal_wrath]

People eat, people get sick...in lieu of 'better', in lieu I shall use 'productive' and 'effective'. Among the fruits of European civilization is the most productive agricultural system upon the face of this earth. The labour of one farmer now feeds hundreds. Additionally, it is by the labour of white scientists and doctors that diseases that have once plagued the earth have been eradicated, and when one gets sick, there are non-voodoo remedies available.

As for the rainforest, we have motorboats for that, but who would want to reside in a vermin-infested swamp if given the choice?

Relativism only goes so far.

As for conversion, being libertarian, let them partake in their own ways so long as they do not make me a party to any of their nonsense or hooliganism.

If you actually look at history without this racial bias, you will find that white people do not deserve sole credit for innovation and invention in agriculture, development in science and medicine.

The thought process you are using is at great fault and very illogical. The way you are looking at these issues is with an oversimplified, black & white, superiority complex: white = academic authority; black = voodoo. Also you don't even recognize the broad range of races.

 

[monoxide_child]

the problem with this thread is that it's all white people
so this thread looks like an all white schoolboard arguing about having to deal with the fact that their formerly all-white school has just been de-segragated back in the 60s

this thread would be way cooler if there were a large number of black people posting on this thread
but the admitedly black people on ultimate metal don't want to post on the philosopher's forum because "philosophy" is a "white man's subject" also because of "metal" being considered "white people's music" there are a lot of black people on ultimate metal that pretend to be white

the other thing making this thread crap is the fact that the only admitedly black person that even knows of the existance of this thread seems to be just a hop, skip and a jump away from becoming one of those malcolm x worshipping, ghetto gangser thugs that somehow really believes that black people are actually better than white people

 

[metal_wrath]

<---------- "black"

 

[monoxide_child]

<---------- "black"

yeah
but you didn't brag about being black like thew other guy did
hey
could you convince other black people to post on this thread
i thing the this thread could really go somewhere if the number of black people posting on it were equal to the number of white people posting

 

[metal_wrath]

yeah
but you didn't brag about being black like thew other guy did
hey
could you convince other black people to post on this thread
i thing the this thread could really go somewhere if the number of black people posting on it were equal to the number of white people posting

I don't know any black people on this forum. Not sure why you think I would know the black people on this forum. I don't see the point of having equal white and black opinions on this topic. This topic is about all races, there are people of many races on this forum.

 

[monoxide_child]

I don't know any black people on this forum. Not sure why you think I would know the black people on this forum. I don't see the point of having equal white and black opinions on this topic. This topic is about all races, there are people of many races on this forum.

i used to read random threads in ultimate metal every once in a while long before i actually became a registered user
i don't know about right now, but there used to be a large number of admitedly black users on the other forums, and as far as i can remember, none of them ever typed on this philosopher forum, and i assumed that the black people weren't posting here because the whole idea of "philosophy" is probably seen as a "white man's subject" in the black community
really, just seeing even 2 black people posting on the philosopher forum is really suprising me

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

If you actually look at history without this racial bias, you will find that white people do not deserve sole credit for innovation and invention in agriculture, development in science and medicine.

The thought process you are using is at great fault and very illogical. The way you are looking at these issues is with an oversimplified, black & white, superiority complex: white = academic authority; black = voodoo. Also you don't even recognize the broad range of races.

It is not without justification that such a generalization, albeit fallacious, can be made. Yes, there have been contributions made by all parties, though the overwhelming majority come from white Europeans.

 

[metal_wrath]

It is not without justification that such a generalization, albeit fallacious, can be made. Yes, there have been contributions made by all parties, though the overwhelming majority come from white Europeans.

We do not know that as a fact. There is no way to know the true origins of these developments. It is a fact that many of these Europeans, the Greeks for example, were heavily influenced by Middle Eastern, Asian and African peoples and depended on their writings and knowledge.

 

[metal_wrath]

i used to read random threads in ultimate metal every once in a while long before i actually became a registered user
i don't know about right now, but there used to be a large number of admitedly black users on the other forums, and as far as i can remember, none of them ever typed on this philosopher forum, and i assumed that the black people weren't posting here because the whole idea of "philosophy" is probably seen as a "white man's subject" in the black community
really, just seeing even 2 black people posting on the philosopher forum is really suprising me

Honestly I don't care what races there are on this forum, or if there are not many black people posting here. I don't see philosophy as a white man's subject.

 

[PhantoMPhones]

Honestly I don't care what races there are on this forum, or if there are not many black people posting here. I don't see philosophy as a white man's subject.

Precisely. The fact that this was brought up shows a bias anyways, of that person, at any rate.

I found it rather funny when I heard;

person 1: *discusses race*

person 2: *doesn't agree, but isn't sufficiently supporting own arguments*
person 2: "Theres too many of person 1 here. This Discussion is racially biased."


lollers ^.^

 

[Caladan]

the problem with this thread is that it's all white people
so this thread looks like an all white schoolboard arguing about having to deal with the fact that their formerly all-white school has just been de-segragated back in the 60s

this thread would be way cooler if there were a large number of black people posting on this thread
but the admitedly black people on ultimate metal don't want to post on the philosopher's forum because "philosophy" is a "white man's subject" also because of "metal" being considered "white people's music" there are a lot of black people on ultimate metal that pretend to be white

the other thing making this thread crap is the fact that the only admitedly black person that even knows of the existance of this thread seems to be just a hop, skip and a jump away from becoming one of those malcolm x worshipping, ghetto gangser thugs that somehow really believes that black people are actually better than white people

I kind of wonder who this other black person is. "A hop skip and jump way from becoming one of those malcolm x worshipping, ghetto gangser thugs that somehow really believes that black people are actually better than white people??"

I have several times admitted I was black. My argument has never been that black was better than white, or even close. And how come you didn't even notice the vast hordes that have claimed (not just a "hop step and jump away") that black people are inferior? Are they okay? What exactly is your point if I may ask?

 

[Caladan]

It is not without justification that such a generalization, albeit fallacious, can be made. Yes, there have been contributions made by all parties, though the overwhelming majority come from white Europeans.

Define white european.

 

[Caladan]

Precisely. The fact that this was brought up shows a bias anyways, of that person, at any rate.

I found it rather funny when I heard;

person 1: *discusses race*

person 2: *doesn't agree, but isn't sufficiently supporting own arguments*
person 2: "Theres too many of person 1 here. This Discussion is racially biased."


lollers ^.^

Again old friend: What is happening on this forum is actually not human philosophy. It's western philosophy, or perhaps anglo-saxon philosophy. The average non-westerner (and this includes the chinese, about 20% of indians, africans, etc) would struggle to hold a discussion on this forum. A good number of europeans would struggle as well.

Here's my point - if you want evidence of african philosophies, go and get a malaria jab from your doctor, and I'll take you to people who can barely speak a word of english, yet are full of wisdom, the wisdom borne of deep thought as well as experience. But they would struggle to post an article on wikipedia because they are unschooled in western cultures. Does this mean they aren't clever? Does this mean they have low IQs? You tell me. The fact that I can't produce information in the manner you expect information to be produced doesn't mean the information doesn't exist. If this argument were taking place in a mandarin based world, you would as well be regarded of having insufficient proof.

On this thread I have heard various arguments about why africans are less clever than other peoples. You yourself claim that IQ is a measure of "teachability". Some other person claimed that africans have smaller heads than other peoples (a truly ridiculous idea seeing as I am unable to find bicycle helmets and fitting spectacles in the western world). And of course, someone tried to pull the "gifted african" trick. We know better now.

I say again - agreed I grew up in a relatively privileged environment in Africa (yep, with other blacks), my dad is professor and my mom a head teacher. Yet, in university I came across boys who could barely string together a proper sentence in english, yet could write some of the most amazing code. Tell me friend, how do I prove that? How do I show you such documentation on the internet?

And most the evidence that has been shown otherwise I have been able to disprove and disabuse. I rest my case.

 

[PhantoMPhones]

Here's my point - if you want evidence of african philosophies, go and get a malaria jab from your doctor, and I'll take you to people who can barely speak a word of english, yet are full of wisdom, the wisdom borne of deep thought as well as experience. But they would struggle to post an article on wikipedia because they are unschooled in western cultures. Does this mean they aren't clever? Does this mean they have low IQs? You tell me. The fact that I can't produce information in the manner you expect information to be produced doesn't mean the information doesn't exist. If this argument were taking place in a mandarin based world, you would as well be regarded of having insufficient proof.

Been there done that ^.^ The only problem I find with your argument here is that this is ultimatemetal.com This is an ENGLISH speaking forum. ENGLISH discussion, as you say this is an english based world. I am not saying that non-english speaking people aren't clever etc etc, but we are discussing this here and now, thusly the person discussing has the burden of proof for their argument, plain and simple. In english. Also, if this were a mandarin based world, had I had the opportunity (which I understand not all africans have that opportunity, thats part of your point i think) I would have learned the language, barring that I would not be posting on mandarin based forums as they wouldn't understand me and vice versa. I would NOT be regarded as having insufficient proof just because I speak a different language. If I was making an argument, I WOULD be expected to do so in a manner that allows for mutual understanding (language) otherwise my argument is moot to begin with. On a mandarin speaking web-site that is.

How does this correlate to here? Well it seems that the people posting have at least a basic grasp of english, thusly they still have a burden of proof, if they wish to make an argument. Poor english or not. Agreed that the information MAY (or may not) exist (which is purely circumstantial until substantiated) despite a language or otherwise barrier, but the point is that if you cannot produce it to the debate, then the argument fails.

On this thread I have heard various arguments about why africans are less clever than other peoples. You yourself claim that IQ is a measure of "teachability". Some other person claimed that africans have smaller heads than other peoples (a truly ridiculous idea seeing as I am unable to find bicycle helmets and fitting spectacles in the western world). And of course, someone tried to pull the "gifted african" trick. We know better now.

Not to be all matter of factly, but if you take a look at the scientific research that HAS been substantiated (I can try to find it if you wish) there is a GENERAL/average difference in cranial mass. (which differs slightly from 'size of head') To dismiss the argument just because you can produce an example contrary, is irrelevant, as it isn't regarded as a rule, and is merely statistical evidence, that is based on a test demographic.

I say again - agreed I grew up in a relatively privileged environment in Africa (yep, with other blacks), my dad is professor and my mom a head teacher. Yet, in university I came across boys who could barely string together a proper sentence in english, yet could write some of the most amazing code. Tell me friend, how do I prove that? How do I show you such documentation on the internet?

I'm not sure what you are asking here. So they don't speak english, what bearing does that have? (am I missing something?) I thought we already got past the 'difference in IQ's' bit. (citing that it is not universal)

And most the evidence that has been shown otherwise I have been able to disprove and disabuse. I rest my case.

Once again it is not universal, but you seem to take many of the arguments here as if we/I are referring to them as altruisms. The logical flow then continues with you providing a singular (or otherwise) example, which you use to disregard the argument. The problem with this is that 1)they are not altruisms 2)they are based in scientific/medical research. Providing a singular 'real life' example can hardly derail such studies etc. 3)statistics are what they are, statistics. When you start to provide contradicting noted scientific and medical resources, then you have a case, until then its just personal speculation. A contrary example is not evidence.

Cheers

 

[monoxide_child]

I have several times admitted I was black. My argument has never been that black was better than white, or even close.

i don't remeber which post, but at some point you kinda looked like you believed that blacks were better than whites even though you didn't actually say it

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

Some of the smartest gold traders I have dealt with (especially at Mahindra ) are from India, though I have been advised many just use astrology &/or 'gurus' and often lose money.

That said, the exchanges are the final arbiter of a people's industriousness. Follow the money and know the tree by the fruit it bears forth.