Satanism and Metal

[AjDeath]

Next time you post can you stand up? When you're sat down your voice is muffled.

I guess I should not have expected intelligence from the likes of you.


If anyone else would like to respond to NocturnalSun's question, I will gladly help him defend his viewpoints, he can come off quite strong, and I do not share his beliefs, but I won't attack someones beliefs because they make me uncomfortable, in fact I will support his right to believe in what he wants to believe in.

@Dirty Sanchez-That is a great name you got there

 

[speed]

The funny thing is, non believers like myself, will never agree with believers like Nocturnal Sun- we all will argue- but there is no answer. Believers can always fall back on faith, non believers on logic. I think it takes an individual to decide what he believes in, no amount of pressure from either group will change ones mind( unless of course they are a child).

 

[NocturnalSun]

Argument and discussion are a good thing, but you people have yet to realize that it is how a person lives his life that is important, not his belief structure. And any person that lets his beliefs get in the way of the act of living should actually reflect upon what he is doing.

a tiny bit of contructive criticism for u. Thanks for sticking up for me and all, but one thing... why not act Christ-like and good? What is so bad with acting with respect and honor? My beliefs ask me to act kind. so why not? it's a good decent path to take in life. I see where you're coming from, but being kind to others is not a hard thing to do and it's kool. I don't think there's anything wrong with letting my beliefs tell me to act nice. Thanks again, though, AJ.

and Speed, I couldn't agree more

 

[AjDeath]

a tiny bit of contructive criticism for u. Thanks for sticking up for me and all, but one thing... why not act Christ-like and good? What is so bad with acting with respect and honor? My beliefs ask me to act kind. so why not? it's a good decent path to take in life. I see where you're coming from, but being kind to others is not a hard thing to do and it's kool. I don't think there's anything wrong with letting my beliefs tell me to act nice. Thanks again, though, AJ.

and Speed, I couldn't agree more

Ahhh, but acting kind and with honor(something that is a huge part of my life, no matter how outmoded some may see it) does not interfere with your life, what I was talking about was how the church forces their beliefs onto the world, like I said, you can believe what you want, but I will not believe in a church that represses and condemns based on the fact that someone does not agree with their doctrine, you forget that the church killed in Christs name without a second thought, as do many other orginized religions kill in their Christ's/God's name, that is why I do not agree and actually opose these orginizations, they totally disregard their leaders/prophets teachings and kill because they do not agree with the views of others, I see these religoins as barbaric and childlike, these religions do not give a whit for human life, they actually seem eager to take it for no other reason other than the intangible. I see them as harvesters of hate, they breed intolerance and spread it like a plague, BUT, this created a backlash, namely the anti-Christian movement, if the church would actually follow their own teachings this would not have come about, in the end they created a vicious circle of hate and violence, they destroyed peace rather than promulgate it. I am not lumping you in with the church, as you obviously are a bright lad and choose to think for your self, I would like to here the questions you have about your religion though.

Also, I don't opose religion, just the organizition of it.

 

[NocturnalSun]

Ahhh yes, the church's history (as with others), namely the Crusades, is full of bloodshed and sin. However, that is all human. God did not interfere. It is a person's free will. They are usually mistaught and have the wrong mindframe. I can't speak for the pope, though, as he did command the Crusades. Basically, the crusades were to take back the Holy Land from the Muslims by force. I think they went about it in the wrong way. They forcefully moved them out instead of making a peaceful movement. these are things I don't understand, even though most bad events are the happenings of humans without divine intervention. I think that church law is specific and good, but it's how a person takes it in and interprets it that determines how he carries it out. Look at the suicide bombings in Israel and stuff... they do it for their religion.

Some things I think we will never understand, but eventually some things will be clearer. we only use like 10% of our brain anyway... that other 90% probably holds the key to the truth, but we haven't found a way to explore it yet. hmm..... just my thoughts...

 

[NocturnalSun]

also, have you seen public access tv religion ceremonies? those people obviously do it for the money and publicity. I don't agree with this either.

The issue of the church condemning people for not following started i think with God's message that he who believes in me will die, but live a new life in heaven and those who don't will remain in a mindframe away from God forever, thus symbolizing hell. as to whether this is wrong or not, we will never know. As said before, Christians fall back on faith and atheists on logic. None can be proven

 

[AjDeath]

Basically, the crusades were to take back the Holy Land from the Muslims by force.

Ah yes, the "Holy Land", How anyone can call a place holy is beyond me, it is a frigging place where people have lived since time out of mind, why would something that had supposedly taken place there make it holy? It is a holy place because someone had died there, well, with that logic you mind as well call the whole world a holy place, a view I am much more inclined to agree with.

I think that church law is specific and good, but it's how a person takes it in and interprets it that determines how he carries it out. Look at the suicide bombings in Israel and stuff... they do it for their religion.

These people I lumped in with every misguided orginazed relgion that I can think of -

that is why I do not agree and actually opose these orginizations, they totally disregard their leaders/prophets teachings and kill because they do not agree with the views of others, I see these religoins as barbaric and childlike, these religions do not give a whit for human life, they actually seem eager to take it for no other reason other than the intangible. I see them as harvesters of hate, they breed intolerance and spread it like a plague

I ment all of the popular orginaized religions, Muslim, Christian, etc.

BTW, when I was talking about the blood that has been shed in the name of Christ, I was talking about the Inquisition and the many wars fought over disagreements in Dogmatic law, but the Crusades are another good example.

 

[AjDeath]

The funny thing is, non believers like myself, will never agree with believers like Nocturnal Sun- we all will argue- but there is no answer. Believers can always fall back on faith, non believers on logic. I think it takes an individual to decide what he believes in, no amount of pressure from either group will change ones mind( unless of course they are a child).

Not to be a prick here Speed, but with your logic something was created when something happened that is impossible(at least to human knowledge) and nothing made it happen, I am inclined to call this blind faith also, not logic, so with that logic(however fualty it may be) you are also a believer. :Smug:


Just giving you some shit.

 

[NocturnalSun]

so are you then speed. isn't everyone? everyone has a theory on how creation/existence came to be and everyone thinks they are right. I will stick with mine and you with yours, but we are ALL followers of something, even if you call yourself your god. whether or not you are right in your ways, we won't know, but I will hold onto my faith and I'm sure you will too.

 

[R.I.P.2]

Not to be a prick here Speed, but with your logic something was created when something happened that is impossible(at least to human knowledge) and nothing made it happen, I am inclined to call this blind faith also, not logic, so with that logic(however fualty it may be) you are also a believer. :Smug:

...at least to human knowledge - exactly. Just because we don't yet know how the universe was created, it doesn't mean God created it.

 

[NocturnalSun]

I can say the same to you, Int. Just because we don't yet know how the universe was created, it doesn't mean God DIDN'T create it.

 

[speed]

So, hold on here- just what is going on here- something that is illogical( beyond human thought at this moment) made the universe- thus I must be a believer in some divine entity?

i should stop making such quotes as I did before- about logic, and belief.

As for what I believe- well i dont know what I believe honestly; there are certaintly many theories as to how the universe was created- and it seems every year we hear of a new discovery on the origins of the universe. So, in essence the problem of existence has to be solved- who knows how we could hae been created- the possibilities are limitless. What I do believe however, is that the so called christian god, is not the author of the universe- instead he is the invention, for better or worse, of mankind.

We are getting deep here.

 

[speed]

strange that this thread would produce this line of thought.

 

[R.I.P.2]

NocturnalSun: Not really, using God as the general answer to the unknown is rather foolish, is it not? It's just that - unknown - why attempt to justify it with something that itself is indefinite?

 

[R.I.P.2]

So, hold on here- just what is going on here- something that is illogical( beyond human thought at this moment) made the universe- thus I must be a believer in some divine entity?

i should stop making such quotes as I did before- about logic, and belief.

As for what I believe- well i dont know what I believe honestly; there are certaintly many theories as to how the universe was created- and it seems every year we hear of a new discovery on the origins of the universe. So, in essence the problem of existence has to be solved- who knows how we could hae been created- the possibilities are limitless. What I do believe however, is that the so called christian god, is not the author of the universe- instead he is the invention, for better or worse, of mankind.

We are getting deep here.

I completely agree, well said.

 

[NocturnalSun]

NocturnalSun: Not really, using God as the general answer to the unknown is rather foolish, is it not? It's just that - unknown - why attempt to justify it with something that itself is indefinite?

YOU first mentioned God when you said 'Just because we don't yet know how the universe was created, it doesn't mean God created it.'
I am simply stating the 2nd truth to the statement.

If we don't know how we and the universe were created, then we cannot for sure prove God created it. However, on that same line, we cannot prove that he did NOT create it either.

No foolishness in that, my friend.

 

[R.I.P.2]

Maybe I am not making myself clear, my point is that God shouldn't be used as an answer to things that are beyond our knowledge.

 

[Akumojo Dracula X3]

~I grew up Catholic, repressed because my teachers told me theologically what was right and wrong. After a time my parents could no longer afford private school so I was sent to public school. Talk about a wake up call! In retrospect I feel that Christianity is about control, which must be the reason why they and republicans get along so well. Although they mean well with teachings of love and understanding, their history is stained with blood and I feel that the church owes the world a major apology. No one will ever know the truth about this religion because it has been convoluted, used as political propaganda, and mistranslated thru centuries. As such a discussion abut it's integrity is an excercise in futility.

~Metal seems to be viewed as satanic because of it's lyrical incorporation of Christian ideals of damnation into the music. That's all Black Sabbath was doing, singing about things that scared the shit out of them. Conservatives and Christian fundamentalists in America have been afraid of change since the baby boom. So when their children began growing their hair, listening to acid rock, and refusing to fight in a war they deem unjust... they lash out in pathetic desperation.

~Ironically the very movement that was supposed to be anti-establishment sparked another movementagainst it, which I call the reality check. Sabbath led the charge with commentary on society's ills, (rather than a jaded ill-concieved ideal of peace) with Judas Priest following just behind establishing the leather jacket image once associated with biker gangs such as the Hell's Angels.

~Then with a growing American society's refusal to accept responsibility for it's own actions scapegoating became buzz-worthy. In a major coincidence the two originators of the Heavy Metal, Judas Priest and Ozzy Osbourne (minus Sabbath) with their high notoriety in musical standings with two unexplained suicides lying dormant, the moral majority in connection with the PMRC decided that since American parents couldn't possibly be responible for a child's poor action that questionable music must be to blame for these children gone astray.

~I don't think it off-base to say that these are poigniant examples of why metal music is associated with Satanism. Satanism according to the Anton Lavey's Satanic bible can exclude a belief in Satan,... so why does this constitute a religion? Is that not more Agnostic? I can't truly see anyone in ther right mind actually practicing Satanism, as if there were an orthodox way to do so. I think of modern worship music as more of a cult than so-alled "satanic" music because if you look closely, everyone in the audience is holding up their hands, closing their eyes, and is visually in a trance-like state as if expecting something to happen. But of course that's if I take evrything at face-value as outsiders do to metal.

 

[AjDeath]

So, hold on here- just what is going on here- something that is illogical( beyond human thought at this moment) made the universe- thus I must be a believer in some divine entity?

i should stop making such quotes as I did before- about logic, and belief.

As for what I believe- well i dont know what I believe honestly; there are certaintly many theories as to how the universe was created- and it seems every year we hear of a new discovery on the origins of the universe. So, in essence the problem of existence has to be solved- who knows how we could hae been created- the possibilities are limitless. What I do believe however, is that the so called christian god, is not the author of the universe- instead he is the invention, for better or worse, of mankind.

We are getting deep here.

First of all Speed, I was just giving you some shit(read-joking around). What I did say was not that you have a belief in a "Divine Entity", I said you have a twisted sense of faith that leads you to believe that everything we know came from nothing when nothing happened at Creation, that is some strong faith IMO, but I was just fucking with you.

at least to human knowledge - exactly. Just because we don't yet know how the universe was created, it doesn't mean God created it.

You completely missed my point, I really do not want to get into it, but for the sake of argument I will. Christians beleive that God created the world, "nonbelievers" believe nothing created the world, both of these beleifs are just that, beleifs because there is no friiging way to prove tham, YET, "NonBelievers" and Christians alike each claim their belief as valid with equal amounts of conviction on boths sides, so, by the definition of faith, which is believing in something and feel it to be real but having no proof and needing none to sustain your beliefs, both camps have "Faith", and a lot more in common with eachother than they would like to admit.

~I grew up Catholic, repressed because my teachers told me theologically what was right and wrong. After a time my parents could no longer afford private school so I was sent to public school. Talk about a wake up call! In retrospect I feel that Christianity is about control, which must be the reason why they and republicans get along so well. Although they mean well with teachings of love and understanding, their history is stained with blood and I feel that the church owes the world a major apology. No one will ever know the truth about this religion because it has been convoluted, used as political propaganda, and mistranslated thru centuries. As such a discussion abut it's integrity is an excercise in futility.

You just condensed everything I have said into one paragraph, everytime someone wants to know my opinion or beliefs, I will just copy and paste that, thank you. I know someone has the opinion as I, something that has never happened here at UM, well, maybe once or twice.

 

[Benzine]

I guess I should not have expected intelligence from the likes of you.

The likes of me? Oh yeah of course we went to school together, grew up on the same street and did everything together. Hey you know me so well!

'The stand up you're voice is muffled' bit was a joke. You laughed, i bet you sat there laughing at it for a couple of minutes and emailed it off to all your friends because you loved it so much. We all know thats what REALLY happened.