Satanism and Metal

speed said:
I dont know where you are getting your information about the gnostic bible- but it is wrong.
What you fail to understand, that there were- and are still many different sects- and beliefs of christ.
Finally you say the four gospels we know, are far more accurate as to the origins of christianity- well this is very much open to debate- the gospels as we know them are totally unsubstantiated- and Matthew and Luke were written with political motivations- this is accepted by even the most conservative scholars.

Sorry, I know you probably asked a catholic who is somewhat knowledgble- but frankly he is wrong- or is trying to lure you away from other non catholic ideas and christian myths and traditions.
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Completely agree with you Speed. NocturnalSun is posting things as though they are FACT when modern accepted wisdom tells us otherwise.
The Gnostic gospels are as valid as any other gospel - difference is - the Gnostic's KNEW their gospels were metaphorical, not literal accounts of one man's incredible life.
Nocturnal Sun - you need to read some books about this if you expect anyone to take your views seriously. I honestly recommend "The Jesus Mysteries - Was Jesus a Pagan God?"
You might find it interesting. Otherwise, stop posting your beliefs as though they're fact. It is NOT a fact Jesus was a real person - you need evidence to support facts and there is NONE for Jesus apart from one mention by Josephus and most modern scholars agree Josephus didn't even write it - it was added by a later Christian.
Open your eyes and look at all sides of the story, not just one.

One last thing - if the gospels are true eye witness accounts by people who were there - why don't they all agree on simple things like the names of the Apostles. They even contradict themselves by saying Jesus was born of a virgin, but at the same time was of the blood line of David because Joseph was his father!! :guh:
 
Its nice to see someone else has knowledge of early Christianity.

Isnt it strange, just how unsubstantiated the christian faith is? How Christianity has accepted myth for fact? How few christians even bother to look into their faith?

Personally, I would like to see a push to make it known that the gospels are myth- that was is important is jesus' overall message of love, and forgiveness( yet it seems many historians believe his central message was political revolution). As it is, ive noticed most( generalization) intelligent people will reject christianity, because of the inherent illogic of the myths of jesus- and or if they do a little research the historical uncertaintany of jesus. Maybe if Christianity was presented like Buddism or Taoism, in which the little fables of the gospel are merely examples of one mans path to enlightement- and or acheiving the kingdom of heaven. I know such a change, would fail for now- as I am essentially saying Jesus was a man- and I think this is the path that must be taken- the Orthodox-Coptic path- Jesus was a man, but because of his pure life etc- he became a god at death. It just makes more sense- and I think fits modern society- myths etc. just cant be believed anymore- but by the weak of mind.

Well that basically sums up entire opinion on christianity.
 
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speed said:
Isnt it strange, just how unsubstantiated the christian faith is? How Christianity has accepted myth for fact?

How few christians even bother to look into their faith?

.
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That last point is a great mystery to me. How can so many otherwise intelligent people (and I include some of my family in this - I was brought up a catholic) take their religion as it's fed to them, without bothering to look into its history? It really shocks me that people are out there killing each other in the name of christianity yet know FUCK ALL about it. o_O
It's utterly crazy.
 
TakinTheMusicBack said:
That last point is a great mystery to me. How can so many otherwise intelligent people (and I include some of my family in this - I was brought up a catholic) take their religion as it's fed to them, without bothering to look into its history? It really shocks me that people are out there killing each other in the name of christianity yet know FUCK ALL about it. o_O
It's utterly crazy.
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Well, they are afraid of destruction of the perfection of their religion.

Heh, perfection. :tickled:
 
Yes Post Scriptum- you are right- they did come to the conclusion it was not James's tomb or ossaury.

WHat we can take from those articles is the fact that many think James the brother of Jesus was the most important figure in early Christianity. Strangely James is largely ignored in the gospels- maybe because they were afraid of Jesus having a real flesh and blood brother. Also the fact that it mentions the only historical evidence we have is that of a grave marker that mentions pontius pilate- pretty thin isnt it.
 
speed said:
many think James the brother of Jesus was the most important figure in early Christianity. Strangely James is largely ignored in the gospels- maybe because they were afraid of Jesus having a real flesh and blood brother. .
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Jesus had a brother??!! But wasn't Mary a VIRGIN??? How can this be? Wait, the gospels actually say Jesus had sisters too don't they? Hmmmm, yet another inconsistency , totally ignored by Christians in their rush to believe what they're being fed.
I seem to recall the Dead Sea Scrolls may even imply that James was the leader of the Scrolls writers, with St Paul being his nemesis or "the wicked priest".
 
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speed said:
Its nice to see someone else has knowledge of early Christianity.

Isnt it strange, just how unsubstantiated the christian faith is? How Christianity has accepted myth for fact? How few christians even bother to look into their faith?

Personally, I would like to see a push to make it known that the gospels are myth- that was is important is jesus' overall message of love, and forgiveness( yet it seems many historians believe his central message was political revolution). As it is, ive noticed most( generalization) intelligent people will reject christianity, because of the inherent illogic of the myths of jesus- and or if they do a little research the historical uncertaintany of jesus. Maybe if Christianity was presented like Buddism or Taoism, in which the little fables of the gospel are merely examples of one mans path to enlightement- and or acheiving the kingdom of heaven. I know such a change, would fail for now- as I am essentially saying Jesus was a man- and I think this is the path that must be taken- the Orthodox-Coptic path- Jesus was a man, but because of his pure life etc- he became a god at death. It just makes more sense- and I think fits modern society- myths etc. just cant be believed anymore- but by the weak of mind.

Well that basically sums up entire opinion on christianity.
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Fantastic.

I agree completely. The intangibility of the supernatural aspects (God, spiritual transcendence) does not contradict my character: It is the application of the concepts in physical life. I believe that there is existence beyond what we can perceive, but I do not believe that burning bushes can talk, or that Eve was created from Adam's rib. :loco:

As for your other post (about Luciferianism, etc)... I'll respond to that tonight.
 
We've got a good argument going here.

I was just thinking- isnt it odd that Islam is largely historically substantiated. we actually know of the history of Muhammed. Im sure he was just a nut who was either psychologically disturbed- or took whatever drugs they had back then- and had visions of this supposed angel- and Allah.
 
The most obvious contradiction I can think of is this:

To believe a man can rise from the dead is an act of Faith.

To believe that a man will be married all his life and never sleep with his wife is an act of Stupidity
 
EDIT: [woah, I just noticed that I replied after only reading through page 4, so for all I know I'm way off topic at this point. Yeah, I'm a dumbass, lol. Anyway...]


A couple of points on the current discussion before I address the actual topic of this thread:

NocturnalSun- There is no single atheistic belief concerning the origin of the universe or any other number topics. "Atheist" simply denotes a lack of belief in a god. Some atheists actively believe there is not a god, other atheists simply do not active believe there is a god. Some are satsisfied with the big bang theory as the end all of explanations for the universe, others are not. There is no atheist dogma of any sort as it is not a set of beliefs/virtues/etc. The question of "well then who made god" is certainly a valid response to your conclusion that there had to have been a god to create the universe. If you are able to believe that a god is simply able to be, then why is that extra step even necessary when you can say the same thing about the universe itself. Everybody who poses that question is not saying they believe there is no origin of the universe, simply that saying a god created it is an unnecessary step that leads to the same roadblock in the question of existence.

Ok, about satanism in metal. Metal, like any other form of art, seeks to express certain idealogies. In this particular case, a large part of the expression is about embracing the dark part of our hearts (that everybody has to one extent or another) instead of rejecting it and trying to shut it out like society/christianity/islam wishes to do. Since metal was formed in the western part of the world, it is natural that satan became a symbol of this expression since he is considered to be the antithesis of god's religions and morals. 99% of metallers do not actually believe in the angel Satan. It is all purely symbolic. I think to say that it is not taken seriously is mistaken though. While they do not take seriously the belief that the actual spiritual entity exists, what it represents is taken very seriously at the core of metal. Of course there are bands who play the music of metal without these feelings, and there are bands who formerly expressed these ideals (whether consciously or unconsciously) but who abandoned the principles as they got older but still continued to play the metal style; and that is fine, but the ideology is still there at the heart of the genre. The superficial trappings of satanism are not present in all metal (black metal is the subgenre that tends to use satanism in an overtly explicit way), but the impetus behind it still is.

Please don't be mistaken though, I'm not criticizing you for being a christian who listens to metal. By all means enjoy what you enjoy in life and if the intended message of metal does not affect you, then there is nothing wrong with that. Just be aware that the ideals behind a concept of satan IS a large driving force behind the majority of metal
 
And also I believe some of the Satanic symbolism may just be money-making.

With the likes of Slipknot just wanting to look as extreme as possible to kids, so include Baphomet on their logos, some of the shitty Black Metal bands use it for money making too.

Cradle Of Filth are the best example:

I wouldn't even call them a black metal band anymore, they are very good at making money from "extreme" t-shirts, that kids buy, one in particular that is very famous.

I am of course speaking of the "Jesus Is A Cunt" t-shirt, I don't agree with this t-shirt, not because I'm religious, but because it's just inciteful and designed to get a reaction, damn Posers.

Dani Filth is getting rich from people who just want a trendy t-shirt,I know lots of people who don't even like CoF but have t-shirts because they are "cool"

There are probably people on this forum with that t-shirt, but anyway, way to feed the corporate machine, under the false pretense of being extreme.
 
Ok, I resisted in my last post, but now I just have to ask... why oh why do people keep bringing up Slipknot!?!?! They're not even metal and are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Even if they were metal, is Slipknot really the first band alot of you think of when it comes to music involving satan?
 
TheBloodFeaster said:
Ok, I resisted in my last post, but now I just have to ask... why oh why do people keep bringing up Slipknot!?!?! They're not even metal and are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Even if they were metal, is Slipknot really the first band alot of you think of when it comes to music involving satan?
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Well put. That's not even a pentagram on Iowa, it's got eight or nine points on it. Lots of bands make references to 666. Not all of them are Satanic
 
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