The English/American language... clear this up for me please!

Welcome to Finland, land of million compound words like sähköasennusinsinööriopiskelijalautakuntakokous! :) In english that would be something like "electrian engineer student board meeting"


Please tell me that "sähköasennusinsinööriopiskelijalautakuntakokous!" is a bunch of random letters and really not a word in Finland. I don't think my lungs can hold enough air to say something that long.

As for the first post, your written English looks perfect. Its much better than all the constant abbreviations that make up most writing on the Internet now. My wife teaches math at the local college and she gets raving mad when she starts a semester and half the email her students send here contain words like CUZ. She had one were the writer referred to her as dude three times. Dear math dude I skipped cuz....
 
so just don't bother thinking about how your accent, spelling, writing, grammar is.....people will understand you


Not agree that much, especially if you visit a land like britain.
I was there last year. I tell ya, my english is not that bad, of course I'm not the best english speaking guy on earth, but I can speak ;), most of the people there were having a hard time because my pronunciation wasn't really "british".
Over here we don't have so much troubles if an american guy or a japanese guy ask for directions to get to Duomo (Milan cathedral) we understand.
Maybe I met just arrogant guys.. maybe.
In other countries never happened.
 
Please tell me that "sähköasennusinsinööriopiskelijalautakuntakokous!" is a bunch of random letters and really not a word in Finland. I don't think my lungs can hold enough air to say something that long.

As for the first post, your written English looks perfect. Its much better than all the constant abbreviations that make up most writing on the Internet now. My wife teaches math at the local college and she gets raving mad when she starts a semester and half the email her students send here contain words like CUZ. She had one were the writer referred to her as dude three times. Dear math dude I skipped cuz....

That actually is a real word, but we would most likely transform it into something more readable like "sähköasennusinsinööriopiskelijoiden lautakunnan kokous" or something like that. But Finland really has this funny thing linguistics system that we don't have prepositions but we use word suffixes so we can form words like "Epäjärjestelmällisyydellistyttämättömyysellänsäkäänköhän" where the base word is "järjestys". And we use a lot of compound words instead, so that is why you can pretty much make infinite lenght compound words

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_(linguistics)

The longest compounds in the world may be found in Finnish and Germanic languages, such as German.

A Finnish example is lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas, the longest actually used word in Finnish. In theory, even longer compounds are possible, but they are usually not found in actual discourse.

That word is an airforce title and without spaces but it seems that the bulletinboard engine cuts the word. It means something like "aircraft turbojet engine assistant mechanic corporal student"
 
Well that's an easy one:

"I will go to the concert" only means that you're planning on going at some point in the future
"I'm going to the concert" can mean either "I'm planning on going to the concert" or "Right now I'm putting on my jacket and getting in my car to leave for the concert."

So basically, as long as you always say "I'm going to the concert," you'll be correct, cuz it can mean both! ;)

Thanks marcus well explained ;)
Maybe my example is not great.
This better:
"I will build the house"
"I'm going to build the house"
This is more present continuous than the my original question lol
 
Maybe I can shed a little light on this, but hold on tight because it's not really all that straightforward (surprised, I know.) You see, it's not so much that English is full of exceptions for every rule as it is that English is taught using oversimplified rules which work reasonably well, and then the 'exceptions' are memorized one at a time. The problem is English is about as much of an inbred-mutt language as has ever existed, and some of the subtleties of grammar -- both syntax (form) and semantics (meaning) -- were borrowed as much as words and spellings. There are indeed fully qualified rules without exceptions, but they often start with prerequisites like "When a Norman French conjugation occurs in a subjunctive dependent clause..." Needless to say, this isn't terribly useful for kids in English class.

That said, there are some useful guidelines for compounds, names and noun-phrases. "Headache" and "power grid," for instance, are a compound and a noun phrase, respectively. Part of what separates the two is the relationship between the nouns (semantics.) In the case of headache, there is a difference in modern parlance between a head ache and a headache. The former refers to a general pain in the head area and the latter refers to a more specific type of pain due to intracranial pressure and inflammation (which is why we treat "headaches" with NSAIDs like Ibuprofen -- non-steroidal anti-inflammatories.) Now, why is the noun-phrase "head ache" not hyphenated like "noun-phrase" itself is? Because noun phrases (like right here) usually (technical jargon follows similar but different rules -- like medicine names) only require hyphenation when appearing in certain syntactical positions, and most specifically when being treated like a single noun, such as in lists (like the start of this paragraph.) So we could say, "NSAIDs are a common headache treatment," or "NSAIDs can be used for head-ache treatment." The latter has three nouns in a row, and we have to choose where to hyphenate. Since this isn't a title or name, we have to allow some of the nouns to act like adjectives, describing the more nouny noun(s). Highly technical, I know :loco: So our options are "head-ache treatment" and "head ache-treatment." Which you use is based on which aspect of the idea you're trying to emphasize; the treatment or the locality of the ache.

As for "power grid", there isn't a more specific common usage of the idea which requires compounding for a neologism, thus the only compounds we see are of the type "PowerGrid", which serve as names/titles. However, were we to throw a couple more nouns in there, we'd have to hyphenate; e.g., "power-grid activation-test procedures." This is a fairly awkward construction, which is why we usually only encounter long sequences of nouns in titles and names. "Power Grid Activation Test Procedures" looks less cumbersome. Nonetheless, the former structure is technically correct when used in a sentence. It also allows for some flexibility in emphasis; "power grid-activation test-procedures" would obviously shift the focus toward the initialization procedures used in testing activation.

So, tl;dr version is that there Are rules and conventions which are rather clear cut, but they're also like extremely surgical Q's on an EQ; their range of application is very narrow and tightly defined. My best advice for you is to try to study common usage in recent publications and hope you get wise to the subtle patterns underlying the usages. But if you don't, no worries. Most native speakers are awful at it, because of how layered and mixed this language is :puke:

Holy shit! M-M-M-M-M-MONSTER POST!

Thanks man. I didn't understand everything you explained but if I read it a couple more times, I'm sure I will. But I did understand the part of where to focus the hyphenation depending on what you want to set the focus on. I've never had that explained to me before I think, but I still kinda knew it because it just felt logical... probably because I've picked it up through all the years of reading english in magazines, on the net etc.

Anyway, thanks for the info man :)
 
My pleasure. It's honestly a shitload easier to just go by the subtle patterns that seem right, because ultimately even philologists, linguists and grammarians do that too, even if they also "understand" it technically. Language is a totally creative, right-brain activity.

As for people speaking the "same language" not understanding each other, Noam Chomsky came up with an idea that all languages are connected through dialects. In other words, if you can understand your neighbor 50 miles away, and he can understand his another 50, and so on, eventually there'll be a neighbor in that chain whom you can't understand, and they you. And once it gets far enough, we no longer call it an accent, dialect or variant, but a whole other language. Not everyone agrees with Chomsky, but it's a fairly accurate and interesting idea nonetheless :lol:
 
... And so has every language its obstacles.

But in the end, I think - and I guess many linguists will agree - English is a rather easy (to learn) language, especially if you're a native speaker of an Indo-European language.

Finnish is no Indo-European language. That's probably the reason why it looks much more weird to us than let's say Spanish, Italian or French.

On the other hand, someone from Estonia has probably much less problems with Finnish...
 
And yeah, compound words rule:

Donaudampfschifffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft ftw! Guinness Book Of Records apparently says this was the longest German compound word in practical use.
 
Yep, I agree with English being easy to learn, relatively speaking. I think the reason why is because it's strongly on the isolating end of the isolating/agglutinating/inflecting spectrum. English has aspects of all three, so it isn't as inflecting/agglutinating as, say, Finnish, which is an extreme example of both with the boatload of inflected cases and agglutinated compounds, but it's also not as isolating as Chinese, which is an extreme example of words and clauses formed out of independent particles that can be written as compounds, but don't change their meanings (inflect) based on how they're compounded. As you can see, English has a lot of this sort of property, which is why word order is very important in both languages.

Another interesting fact: heavily isolating languages evolved by expressing meaning and intent through tonal variations when spoken, as opposed to extreme changes in word structure, which is why they often represent those tonalities as modifications to their symbols. Again, English and Chinese are good examples. ? ! . ... and , are some of the many indicators of tonal changes to be applied in English when spoken. Others are the position of scaffold words like could, would, do, have, go, the interrogatives (who/what/when/where/why/how), etc, all of which are clarified when speaking by changes in tone, timing and accent, like: "Why, did YOU go to the store?" which is very different from "WHY did you go to the store?" and "Why DID you go to the store?" and "Why did you go to the STORE!?". Identical phrases all used differently with different meanings, only separated by tone, timing and accent. Isolating languages are fun, and apparently are so popular (English+Chinese = more than 50% of the planet's languages) because language is inherently such a creative, verbally experiential process that just like music, the more dynamics there are, the more interesting it is.

Just my $0.02 :Smug:
 
when it comes down to it, your english is better than millions of immigrants who live here permanently, so no one's going to hold it against you...
 
Yep, I agree with English being easy to learn, relatively speaking. I think the reason why is because it's strongly on the isolating end of the isolating/agglutinating/inflecting spectrum. English has aspects of all three, so it isn't as inflecting/agglutinating as, say, Finnish, which is an extreme example of both with the boatload of inflected cases and agglutinated compounds, but it's also not as isolating as Chinese, which is an extreme example of words and clauses formed out of independent particles that can be written as compounds, but don't change their meanings (inflect) based on how they're compounded. As you can see, English has a lot of this sort of property, which is why word order is very important in both languages.

Another interesting fact: heavily isolating languages evolved by expressing meaning and intent through tonal variations when spoken, as opposed to extreme changes in word structure, which is why they often represent those tonalities as modifications to their symbols. Again, English and Chinese are good examples. ? ! . ... and , are some of the many indicators of tonal changes to be applied in English when spoken. Others are the position of scaffold words like could, would, do, have, go, the interrogatives (who/what/when/where/why/how), etc, all of which are clarified when speaking by changes in tone, timing and accent, like: "Why, did YOU go to the store?" which is very different from "WHY did you go to the store?" and "Why DID you go to the store?" and "Why did you go to the STORE!?". Identical phrases all used differently with different meanings, only separated by tone, timing and accent. Isolating languages are fun, and apparently are so popular (English+Chinese = more than 50% of the planet's languages) because language is inherently such a creative, verbally experiential process that just like music, the more dynamics there are, the more interesting it is.

Just my $0.02 :Smug:

Interesting read, and you seem to know so much about languages! I think "language science" or whatever you'd call it is a pretty cool thing. I've always been interested in languages.

when it comes down to it, your english is better than millions of immigrants who live here permanently, so no one's going to hold it against you...

Thanks man :) I'm pretty confident when I speak english, because in speech, it's so much easier to just continue on and on even if you make small mistakes. When written though, I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist and look up things I'm not sure of... and most of the time, Google gets me the info I need instantly. It's sick, back in the days we needed to go to websites that had dictionaries and stuff but these days, Google's damn search field acts as God. :)
 
My pleasure. It's honestly a shitload easier to just go by the subtle patterns that seem right, because ultimately even philologists, linguists and grammarians do that too, even if they also "understand" it technically. Language is a totally creative, right-brain activity.

As I've learned my English pretty much by ear, I don't usually have a fucking clue if my grammar is correct or not, I just go what sounds right. I usually check my spelling if I'm uncertain, though.

Maybe that's the reason my english teacher didn't like me very much? :lol:

My spoken English probably sounds something like this at best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy8LJx71_9o#t=5m40s

:D