The great innovators of Metal

[zabu of nΩd]

You could list subgenres chronologically and mention bands under each, it wouldn't make the list any more redundant than it already is.

The thing is, this list is not supposed to be about subgenres. It's supposed to be about specific ideas that specific bands injected into the metal scene. Ideally, we should be able to take a group of bands who supposedly "co-created" a genre, and figure out what exactly each one did to be called a contributor. At that point, there would be no redundancy in having all of them on the list. Right now we're still dealing with a lot of vagueness, so that's really where any redundancy on the list would be coming from.

Put them somewhere, the "thrash metal with chaotic, dissonant riffs and occult lyrics" played by Hellhammer didn't influence black metal, it was black metal.

I take it you mean first-wave black metal, as opposed to modern black metal? I haven't actually listened to Hellhammer yet.

I think the list has a long way to go before it even reaches Wikipedia caliber levels of usefulness, it makes for interesting discussion though.

I guess that counts for something. Anyway, I have high hopes for the list eventually becoming useful.

Sort of and no, their most notable influence was probably in vocal style.

Actually, the rhythms and pace of a few Deep Purple songs pretty closely resemble that of speed metal or NWOBHM. I'm mainly thinking of "Highway Star".

 

[Matt]

Sort of and no, their most notable influence was probably in vocal style.

Vox as well as musically.

Folk rock, maybe.

Yes, and folk rock evolved into folk metal.

More of an indirect influence on metal.

Maybe, but without The Beatles there is no metal.

Not really

I seriously doubt you've ever listened to Black Night or Machine Head.
If so, then I can't see why you wouldn't call them the fathers of speed and thrash.

 

[Matt]

Actually, the rhythms and pace of a few Deep Purple songs pretty closely resemble that of speed metal or NWOBHM. I'm mainly thinking of "Highway Star".

Case in point, but not just the one song.

Also questionable/peripheral stuff besides Sabbath and Priest.

ELO is hardly questionable. They were the first rock band to full incorporate a full (or abbreviated) orchestra in their albums.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I think we need to stick more toward direct influences on metal (i.e. groups that are explicitly cited by metal bands) - otherwise, we're going to have Gregorian monks and traveling minstrels on our list.

As far as the Beatles go, I seem to recall Black Sabbath actually being huge fans of them, so I could conceive of Sabbath having drawn inspiration or ideas from them somewhere along the line.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

The thing is, this list is not supposed to be about subgenres. It's supposed to be about specific ideas that specific bands injected into the metal scene. Ideally, we should be able to take a group of bands who supposedly "co-created" a genre, and figure out what exactly each one did to be called a contributor. At that point, there would be no redundancy in having all of them on the list. Right now we're still dealing with a lot of vagueness, so that's really where any redundancy on the list would be coming from.

I meant redundant in the sense of there already being better sources out there for the information you're compiling. Just suggesting a way to organize it, anyway.

I take it you mean first-wave black metal, as opposed to modern black metal? I haven't actually listened to Hellhammer yet.

They fall under the first wave, although I don't see it as a dualistic division so much as a way of denoting the eras of black metal.

Actually, the rhythms and pace of a few Deep Purple songs pretty closely resemble that of speed metal or NWOBHM. I'm mainly thinking of "Highway Star".

Which is why I said "sort of" for speed metal, but no for thrash - they don't have any thrash songs, and were only influential to thrash by way of being influential to speed.

Yes, and folk rock evolved into folk metal.

When and how?

Maybe, but without The Beatles there is no metal.

And without Elvis there's no Beatles, etc.

ELO is hardly questionable. They were the first rock band to full incorporate a full (or abbreviated) orchestra in their albums.

And this has what to do with metal?

 

[Chairman Kaga]

Wintersun - First full length winter metal album.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

What in the hell is winter metal?

 

[cookiecutter]

bullshit trolling

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Aw crap - I fell for it too.

At least I spotted the Trivium one.

 

[IOfTheStorm]

Deep Purple - Created speed and thrash metal

Zeppelin - Originated folk metal

Stop taking drugs. At least you could mention "Speed King" (being one of their most wild and loud songs) or "Fireball" instead of "Black Night". And as for Zeppelin... folk had found its way into rock (and heavy/hard rock) long before them, plus other bands are far more responsible for what is called "folk metal".

Priest, Scorpions, Hendrix, Thin Lizzy, Alice Cooper (hugely influential), etc - Assisted in creation heavy metal

Don't put Hendrix next to the others, he belongs to the ones that influenced the others, but not in the same "influential category" as them. Priest, Scorpions and Thin Lizzy were heavy metal, Hendrix.... just had his metal moments.

 

[Hypnos]

what about bands like In The Woods..., Ved Buens Ende, Sigh, Fleurety or Master's Hammer who brought all the avantgarde thing into metal?

 

[Zephyrus]

This is where you might want to make distinctions between bands who were influential and bands who just there at the beginning. I've never heard Impaled Nazarene mentioned as influential in any sense, apparently they were there but no one noticed. Is industrial black metal a subgenre? Do all the bands in it draw influence from Mysticum or are there just a bunch of bands that added industrial to black metal independently?

Mysticum not only founded the industrial black metal sound, they gained a cult following by bands who are affiliated with the Planet Satan Revolution (named after Mysticum's un-released second album). These bands, such as Aborym and Blacklodge, often use images of heroin needles as part of their "don't control drugs, let drugs control you" image.

Impaled Nazarene holds no part in this.

 

[Matt]

And as for Zeppelin... folk had found its way into rock (and heavy/hard rock) long before them, plus other bands are far more responsible for what is called "folk metal".

Examples?

It doesn't really matter anyway - Zeppelin were the first to be hugely successful with it.

Which is why I said "sort of" for speed metal, but no for thrash - they don't have any thrash songs, and were only influential to thrash by way of being influential to speed.

Thrash evolved from them; they don't have to be thrash to be the most influential.

When and how?

How else would it?

And without Elvis there's no Beatles, etc.

Yes

And this has what to do with metal?

Symphonic rock -=- Symphonic metal.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

^ We need to stick to immediate influences to metal for the list.

 

[Alter]

Not one comment on Abhoth? A real pity.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Thrash evolved from them; they don't have to be thrash to be the most influential.

Now they're the *most* influential? That kind of discounts all the punk influence, which I don't think Deep Purple had to much of a hand in.

How else would it?

Folk music + metal? Did Bathory or Skyclad ever mention Led Zeppelin? Is there evidence of influence in their music? Predating folk metal doesn't necessarily mean influence.

Yes

Which is why it's not important to include every band involved in the evolution of music up until 1970.

Symphonic rock -=- Symphonic metal.

How are they related? Other than one predating the other?

Mysticum not only founded the industrial black metal sound, they gained a cult following by bands who are affiliated with the Planet Satan Revolution (named after Mysticum's un-released second album). These bands, such as Aborym and Blacklodge, often use images of heroin needles as part of their "don't control drugs, let drugs control you" image.

I feel like I'm having a conversation with Century Media magazine ad.

 

[Tonka Time]

didnt carcass create goregrind?

 

[cookiecutter]

Yes

 

[Tonka Time]

well there ya go, CARCASS

 

[zabu of nΩd]

^ Added.

Plus, I propose this entry:

Deep Purple
* A major influence on speed metal and NWOBHM through their use of galloping rhythms, aggressive vocals, and an adventurous musical tone.

I'm not sure which album all of those elements first appeared on together, though. Perhaps Mathias can point that out for us.