The politics thread

[Messiakh]

Instead of dealing with politics we should all pray together, from Lebanon and Israel, a united prayer, that we are all human beings and we wish to be united with harmony as brothers, lets send from this platform nothing but peace and endless light to this region

Those are really beautiful words

 

[paradoxile]

I happen to disagree with Kobi
we don't need to pray...we need to do something
off course praying couldn't hurt...

 

[paradoxile]

i don't think that violence results from religions. take the crusades for example, or the inquisition... they believed in someone who said "if someone slaps you on the face, turn the other cheek". so where does this violence come from? it resides in the human nature.
and the "holy war" thing in islam is defensive, it simply says not to turn the other cheek, but to fight for your rights. it does not say "kill people who does not believe you, invade lands to bring islam" but that's what most islamic countries (the ottoman empire, as the biggest example) did... so what i'm trying to say is that people don't really care about what religions say. they might start with believing in a religion, but then, they start following their own violence.
wars start from this violence in the human nature, and greed, and egocentricism. also, human beings are in need of a "divine idea" to hold onto in order start a war. the easiest "high ideas" are religions, since they are the most common and influencial ones. but none of the big religions originally give this right to start a war of greed, so they create their own religions out of the real ones. and some of them don't use a ready religious template to create their own, but they use something else, like nationalism (take hitler and the nazis, as the biggest example)

violence wasn't caused by religions directly but religion was supposed to stop it...not having people use violence to force other people to convert
as we all see that "turn the other cheek" thing didn't quite work furthermore it was completely ignored during the inquisition and the crusades...
what the church was supposed to do is have missionaries sent to different countries and have the population explained the benefits of christianity and have the people convert by their own will.
the holy wars is clearly a defensive thing meant to protect the islamic community from being invaded and coverted to another religion against their will but extremists use the holy wars thing to attack...so religion was a platform used by some people to use violence with the false excuse that it was commanded by god and generations of people listened to those fantics and spread those lies to their children...nobody knows the truth anymore.
what i'm saying is that I totally agree with you and you seem to defend religion because it helped many people with their lives and helped them discover god and that's ok.
what I'm saying is that religion is created by man and therefore flawed after all how can the religions have laws that contredict each other and come from the same devine source...it doesn't make sence.
so religion even if it's a good idea it was spread using violence and therefore it is a sin in a way...it's like buying a guitar with stolen money and sing songs against looting and shoplifting...
I say what we need is a universal set of laws that applies to all the people on the planet and allowing every person to practice his own culture and believe in any god he desires and practice his belief as long as it doesn't contredict the universal laws...laws such as no forcing your belief on others and not killing anyone unless it's self defence etc. etc.
off course those laws would have to be voted on by the entire population of the planet and people shouldn't govern people in order not to have corruption in the leadership...no local governments means everyone is citizen of the planet and is entitled to equal rights and opportunities, people will eventually start moving from place to place and all races will mix and eventually people will be working and developing solution for the common good with the money and resources that are used becuase there are no wars so no resources go on weapons of offence and defence.instead we will have a huge planetary space exploration program and options on colonizing other planets with having the environmental problems like polution solved

 

[Metal head87]

I wonder what is really going on though. I'm sure Israeli intelligence must know a lot more than what everyone thinks. Hezbala were probably planning something really big. If I'm not mistaken, isn't Iran connected to them? And Isn't the new dictator, I mean Prime minister, of Iran the guy who calls for the destruction of Israel?
I totally support what Israel is doing now. I have family in Bat Yam and Rishon Le'Tziyon. I hope nothing bad happens to them.

Sorry if I don't sound too articulate right now, I'm a little tired and a little drunk.

Off topic, but watching Pee Wee's Playhouse while you're drinking is quite a trip.

Anyways, I hope all of you guys are safe!

 

[Metal head87]

Middle East is the land where the earliest civilizations has been born. During the last time of Babylon, Abraham, had two child, Ismail and Ishak. The race of Arabs are coming from Ismail and Jews are coming from Ishak's son Jakob. Arabians and Jews are a bit like Habil and Kabil, who are brothers who speak a very similar language, but also who are cruel to each others.

In the Bible, these one brother has killed the other. But Sumerians written about the same story at least 1500 earlier than Bible. They used to believe that, Gilgamesh and Enkudu really got very good friends after fighting.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but the arabs of today cannot really trace their roots back to Ishmael. The original Arabian people are not the same people as the arabs now.

The arabs and the Jews used to get along pretty well actually. It was really when the Jews started to get along with the Christians that their problems with the Arabs started.

But actually, for the people of the generation or 2 generations before mine, in some countries such as Morocco, the arabs and Jews got along.

 

[paradoxile]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but the arabs of today cannot really trace their roots back to Ishmael. The original Arabian people are not the same people as the arabs now.

The arabs and the Jews used to get along pretty well actually. It was really when the Jews started to get along with the Christians that their problems with the Arabs started.

But actually, for the people of the generation or 2 generations before mine, in some countries such as Morocco, the arabs and Jews got along.

I guess you're right to some extent...the seed of Ismael inhabitted the region now known as Saudi Arabia(hence the name Arabs) but at the times of The Asyrian Empire (720 BC) and The Babylonian Empire (580 BC) and the Persian empire (200 BC) and the Roman Empire (70 AD and further) it was common for the empire to divide different citizens into different areas of the empire that's how the 10 clans of the kingdom of israel were lost.
at some point the whole region was inhabitted by arabs...the ancient egypt was extinct(the one with all the pharoes) and it's all arabs now...the question is was the people of arabia move spread completely or was the coreof the people still left there because they were quite a lot of people to move and it was financially unwise.

as for jews in morrocco they still get along with morroccans and Israel has a good peaceful relationship with the king of morroocco...I believe any israeli who wants to visit there can go and it's completely safe.

The jews didn't get along with all the christians...not with the romans at least once their caeser converted to christianity and converted the whole empire with him

 

[paradoxile]

Off topic, but watching Pee Wee's Playhouse while you're drinking is quite a trip.

not many in israel know who's pee wee herman...i thought he was arrested again for having possession of some child porno stuff or molesting a little boy or something like that.(i mean besides the jerking off in the theater incident which is ancient history)

or is it a rerun?

 

[Metal head87]

I know the Jews didn't get along with the Christians a long time ago. But they do somewhat get along with each other now.
They still get along in Morocco, but not like they used to. I'm not talking about the government, I mean the people themselves. While there isn't strong animosity between them, they're not quite as friendly. I know a Muslim guy who's like in his mid 40's that used to eat Sabbath meals with his best friend who was Jewish. He said he is a Muslim but was raised like a Sephardic Jew.

Pee Wee's Playhouse is a rerun. They have it on Adult Swim (a block of shows on Cartoon Network for the 16+ crowed of alcoholics and druggies). No way could that have been a kid's show. I remember on one episode, Miss Yvonne was staying over at Pee Wee's house. So she wants to take a bath and he asks if he could watch. SO she says no since all her naughty parts will be naked. SO he says "I know, that's why I want to watch hehehehe (in that sick laugh of his)".
I didn't know he got arrested for kiddy porn. Now I feel really bad for the kids he had on the show.
That guy is beyond fucked up. I remember that he was even in a Cheech And Chong movie.

 

[Messiakh]

I know the Jews didn't get along with the Christians a long time ago. But they do somewhat get along with each other now.
They still get along in Morocco, but not like they used to. I'm not talking about the government, I mean the people themselves. While there isn't strong animosity between them, they're not quite as friendly. I know a Muslim guy who's like in his mid 40's that used to eat Sabbath meals with his best friend who was Jewish. He said he is a Muslim but was raised like a Sephardic Jew.

This may not sound like a serious nor a smart question, but what's a Sabbath Meal?

 

[RashomoN]

This may not sound like a serious nor a smart question, but what's a Sabbath Meal?

it is the meal on friday evening....just before saturday is arriving....

 

[RashomoN]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but the arabs of today cannot really trace their roots back to Ishmael. The original Arabian people are not the same people as the arabs now.

The arabs and the Jews used to get along pretty well actually. It was really when the Jews started to get along with the Christians that their problems with the Arabs started.

But actually, for the people of the generation or 2 generations before mine, in some countries such as Morocco, the arabs and Jews got along.

I don't agree with you....
you have to understand we are living in a world of politics...it seems you know a lot about this world (because of the media), but actually you know nothing.....(of course, not you specificly....all of us, i mean!)

i hate generally speaking.....but i have to say "Israelis" and "Arabs".....although there are X and Y in every kind of people....

first of all.....I am not a believer....but i think there is a lot of this world in the bible..... the story of Isaac and Ishmael is very relevant....
both are sons of Abraham.....both should have the land of Israel. but according the bible, Abraham chose Isaac. that's why there was a fight between the two half brothers.....
you can see it now as the never-ending conflict, which began in biblical times....

but I have to say that it is not necesarely true....not all Israelis (or Jews) and Arabs are in conflict.....
there are Jews in the arab world...some of them living decent lives.....
there are Israeli arabs with israeli passports and israeli friends....
i am working in 2 jobs.....one lately refused to get arab workers (there was a big shout in the media after that), thats why i am leaving this place.
in the second job there are jews and arabs working together, and you just have to see the friendly hugs each day, and you can't believe there is a war just 1 hour north.

the world is too much complicated.....

 

[paradoxile]

Just say you work in Arcafe...and I know why they don't don't hire Arabs
it's because while a jew would spit in your food, an Arab would pee in it...

nothing like good old lies and labels on our favorite minorities eh?

 

[Metal head87]

I don't agree with you....
you have to understand we are living in a world of politics...it seems you know a lot about this world (because of the media), but actually you know nothing.....(of course, not you specificly....all of us, i mean!)

i hate generally speaking.....but i have to say "Israelis" and "Arabs".....although there are X and Y in every kind of people....

first of all.....I am not a believer....but i think there is a lot of this world in the bible..... the story of Isaac and Ishmael is very relevant....
both are sons of Abraham.....both should have the land of Israel. but according the bible, Abraham chose Isaac. that's why there was a fight between the two half brothers.....
you can see it now as the never-ending conflict, which began in biblical times....

but I have to say that it is not necesarely true....not all Israelis (or Jews) and Arabs are in conflict.....
there are Jews in the arab world...some of them living decent lives.....
there are Israeli arabs with israeli passports and israeli friends....
i am working in 2 jobs.....one lately refused to get arab workers (there was a big shout in the media after that), thats why i am leaving this place.
in the second job there are jews and arabs working together, and you just have to see the friendly hugs each day, and you can't believe there is a war just 1 hour north.

the world is too much complicated.....

I know the Arabs in Israel aren't bad. I remember when I was in Israel like 7 years ago when Clinton came. The roads were all closed off, there was security check and everything. We were staying in Jerusalem but we were in Bat Yam for the weekend visiting my relatives there. So going back, we had an Arab cabbie. He was a very nice guy, very friendly and everything. But when we reached the road blocks, they wouldn't let him go any further because he was an Arab. I thought, well still do, that was kind of fucked up.

I can understand why they might not have wanted arab workers though. If it's a costumer based business, like if the costumers come in and can see the emplyees, it could potentially hurt their business. Not that I think it's right to do that though. Decisions like that are what can make the Israeli arabs start to get pissed too.

As far as Jews in the arab world, it depends on which country. Iran used to be good when they had the Sha, before all the crazy extremists came around. They were also very educated. That's why many Iranians I know are doctors since they had good schools in Iran.
I know some Iraqis that said it was terrible there.

It all depends on how fanatical or extreme the country leaders are, or how well they can keep order with some of the fanatical citizens. Morocco has a lot of the fanatical citizens now, but as far as I know, the government is able to keep some order there. Even Egypt isn't too bad, but they are getting shit loads of American money to behave.
That is what is supposedly going on in Lebanon now from what I've heard. It's that the government cannot control the fanatics, in this case it's Hezbala. I think there's something much bigger that's really going on, but that's not my point.


Do you think it's to early in the day to get drunk (it's 1:20pm, 13:20)

 

[paradoxile]

some Israeli arabs are forced to betray Israel because some kind of organization is threatening that if you won't go and suicide bomb the people you were working for for the past 10 years we will harm your family
and they have no choice

 

[Metal head87]

That's really fucked up. They either brainwash you to do their dirty work, make you an offer you cannot refuse (like if they were terminally ill they would be bribed to do it so their family would have money) or they threaten you. They should stop to think that if it is really such a great thing to do, to be cosidered a martyr even, then why won't the people higher up do the same thing?
Wit until they find out that...

 

[paradoxile]

That's really fucked up. They either brainwash you to do their dirty work, make you an offer you cannot refuse (like if they were terminally ill they would be bribed to do it so their family would have money) or they threaten you. They should stop to think that if it is really such a great thing to do, to be cosidered a martyr even, then why won't the people higher up do the same thing?
Wit until they find out that...

they are not martyrs...just murderers

 

[Metal head87]

I know they are nothing but filthy murderes, but I was saying that THEY call themselves martyrs. I agree that they should be called homicide bombers, because "suicide bomber" makes those cowardly assholes sound like they are brave and noble, giving up their lives for their cause. But what I meant was, that those idiot puppets who blow themselves up should ask themselves "how come the guys hiring me to do this aren't blowing themselves up too if it is supposedly such a great thing to do. To even be called a martyr and a hero. WHy would they let some random person get that glory when they could get it themselves". If they would think that way, they might realize that it's all a bunch of bullshit. It's not like that 1 person is so important that he needs to be around to ger more recruits. Each one of those people are all expendable according to their leaders.
They are throwing their lives away to kill innocent people who caused them no harm because some cowardly assholes don't like the fact that Israelis are living in Israel. The worst part is that they know that there is only so much that Israel can get away with doing. If Israel really didn;t give a damn about what the UN has to say, they could wipe out those stone throwing vermin.
I don't have anything against arabs or muslims, I'm friendly with some of them, but I despise cowards. If they are cowards, then don't fight, but they have no right to target innocent people buying a cup of coffee or a slice of pizza.

Actually, I saw on the news yesterday, they showed a couple getting married in a bunker.

 

[Morticia NL.]

Completely offtopic- though not entirely
I was posting this in the coolness topic and thought it had a better place put here.
I have just finished a small piece of video today that I made to accompany on of my fave song of all time: Forlorn hope by After Forever. That song brings a tear in my eye every time I hear and I am sad to say that the topic of the song is in the news again these days.
This song deals with the Intifada and I have uploaded it to youtube now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46sabEp4vy8

For those interested, I have also made a version that can be played on our PDA. I will put it some place as a download on request. (nathalie@orphaned-disciples.com)

I have dedicated this video to the message of Peace, understanding and love.

 

[Metal head87]

Another good song would be that one that Salem covered on their Kaddish album, Hayara Ba'eret. I'm not sure how it would be spelled in English.

 

[RashomoN]

Nathalie, as i already told you.....this song made me understand Mark and I have a lot in common.....
this is a great song, with amazing lyrics.....

everyone here have to listen to the song! you will love it!

after reading all the comments here, i just had to say you are all right.....
and this is what the song is about......the truth is too much complicated to understand.....

and i can add to that....we can't say who is right and who is wrong....
maybe both sides are right and wrong....!
you have to understand, we all were born, raised, grew up and living in different places, with different points of view.....

I always think what would i believed in, if i was born arab.....
yes....we all having some kinds of brainwash....
the society is sick! everywhere.....!

thats why unfortunately, i can't see the end of this kinds of conflicts....
just hope it will be more quiet.....with less people to get hurt....
but now we got ourselves deep in the mud!