The Second Coming of the Great Political Thread

[cookiecutter]

What's intuitively obvious to me is that medical treatment is fucking expensive, and trying to give it to 300 million people is either going to result in shit medical treatment or massive national debt.

Taxes. It may sound bad but at the moment America spends the most money of any country on healthcare. The raise in taxes will be offset by not having to pay for your own healthcare. And at the bottom of it people deserve to get medical care when they need it, no matter their economic situation.

Except you don't want 'socialized' medicine. You want 'fee for service medicine you don't have to pay for'

The two are completely different.

wat

 

[The Ozzman]

wat

You're an idiot.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Taxes. It may sound bad but at the moment America spends the most money of any country on healthcare. The raise in taxes will be offset by not having to pay for your own healthcare. And at the bottom of it people deserve to get medical care when they need it, no matter their economic situation.

1) How do you know if the higher cost in the U.S. is due to the free-market aspect of it, as opposed to other factors like higher quality of treatment or a greater rate of chronic health problems? Just because it's cheaper in other countries doesn't mean improving our system is as simple as making it cheaper for everyone.

2) How is universal health care a supposed to be a human right when it hasn't existed for the vast majority of human history?

3) Don't you think there's an element of personal responsibility to be considered regarding this issue? Why should someone who takes care of him/herself, has a good job, and can manage their personal resources, have to pay for someone else who lives like a slob and has more children than they can support?



edit: I'm heading out to go shopping, so my next reply in our debate might be a while.

 

[The Ozzman]

1) How do you know if the higher cost in the U.S. is due to the free-market aspect of it, as opposed to other factors like higher quality of treatment or a greater rate of chronic health problems? Just because it's cheaper in other countries doesn't mean improving our system is as simple as making it cheaper for everyone.

2) How is universal health care a supposed to be a human right when it hasn't existed for the vast majority of human history?

3) Don't you think there's an element of personal responsibility to be considered regarding this topic? Why should someone who takes care of him/herself, has a good job, and can manage their personal resources, have to pay for someone else who lives like a slob and has more children than they can support?

If we ever meet, I'm buying you a beer.

Also, liberals think higher taxes are the answer to everything.

 

[cookiecutter]

1) How do you know if the higher cost in the U.S. is due to the free-market aspect of it, as opposed to other factors like higher quality of treatment or a greater rate of chronic health problems? Just because it's cheaper in other countries doesn't mean improving our system is as simple as making it cheaper for everyone.

I don't know, but you were saying that the cost would go up if we had socialized medicine, but it's not like the cost is there now.

2) How is universal health care a supposed to be a human right when it hasn't existed for the vast majority of human history?

Terrible point. For the vast majority of human history, autocracy was the standard form of government. Is political freedom not something we deserve?

3) Don't you think there's an element of personal responsibility to be considered regarding this issue? Why should someone who takes care of him/herself, has a good job, and can manage their personal resources, have to pay for someone else who lives like a slob and has more children than they can support?

Saving and improving lives through medical treatment is more important than punishing people for poor life choices

 

[ThisIsACoolName]

Saving and improving lives through medical treatment is more important than punishing people for poor life choices

Winner!

 

[MasterOLightning]

It is a well known fact that many health care expenses are inflated due to uninsured people being unable to pay for emergency care. Hospitals have to recoup the money lost on treating the uninsured by overcharging the insured. Taxes will have to go up to insure everyone, but actual costs of care will decrease due to the elimination of losses resulting from the uninsured, so things will level out and correct themselves eventually. In addition, employers will be forced to either pay their employees much more, or charge less for their goods and services in order to stay competitive. Cheaper goods and higher wages offset higher taxes.

With the government being legally responsible for malpractice, the costs on individual doctors would decrease considerably, so the decreases in wages would only be artificial.

There is no sound economic argument against national healthcare. Arguments against it basically come down to people feeling some sort of entitlement to their good luck in life.

 

[cookiecutter]

Good post.

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

11 on the pwngage. You broke the needle.

 

[The Ozzman]

Socialized medicine would bring the complete opposite to the nation, contrary to MasterOLightning's prediction.

Again, people don't want 'socialized' health care. They want 'fee for service medicine' that they don't have to pay for. The way both systems work (fee for service versus socialized care) is completely different.

The sound argument is that the government doesn't owe the American people anything but the protection of their inalienable rights as well as enforcing contracts and punishing those that break said contracts.

Unfortunately, nobody cares anymore and everyone thinks they deserve a fucking handout.

 

[cookiecutter]

Please explain the difference between socialized medicine and fee for service medicine.

 

[The Ozzman]

Fee for service implies private health care that is also quality health care. It's what the US has now. The system is not dependent on government funding

Socialized medicine is public health care with not so great quality and is dependent on government funding.

People basically will want the same system the US has now, but they don't want to pay for any of it, which means that the services provided will be drastically different, either in terms of quality or quantity.

 

[cookiecutter]

I don't know what people you mean, but I certainly support a government run system. I reject your claims about the quality. The evidence from Europe and Canada show the opposite effect in fact.

 

[The Ozzman]

Then how come all the Canadian doctors come here to treat people?

 

[cookiecutter]

Because they can get more money.

 

[The Ozzman]

Because they can get more money.

or because they are able to treat people in a more qualitative manner.

 

[MasterOLightning]

Health statistics greatly favor countries that have socialized medicine.

 

[cookiecutter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

The US is 38th on this list.

 

[Matt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

The US is 38th on this list.

78.2 to 80.7, US vs. Canada. Everybody is really close together.

 

[cookiecutter]

Be that as it may, you'd still expect the richest nation in the world that spend the most on health care would be a little higher than 38th.