The Whining and Bitching Thread

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Tell that to the countless children born into slavery starving to death or the poor fuck that works in some smartphone manufactures factory that jumps off the roof because conditions are so horrible etc. Ask these people if they believe that the good or luxuries in life outweigh the evil or hardships.

 

[Dak]

Tell that to the countless children born into slavery starving to death or the poor fuck that works in some smartphone manufactures factory that jumps off the roof because conditions are so horrible etc. Ask these people if they believe that the good or luxuries in life outweigh the evil or hardships.

I didn't make any sort of categorical "outweigh" statement. But the guy jumping off the Foxconn building isn't blowing up the earth upon leaping or landing. Additionally, the guy jumping off the Foxconn building has unwittingly assisted in some part to making things better for those who did not. Oh irony. Nevermind that suicide to escape from (potentially) temporary drudgery isn't in the same league as the guy dropping a grenade in his foxhole to avoid being taken by swarming "savages".

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Are you such a biased Utilitarian that you refuse to see that if every person on earth were to fall asleep forever that it would result in the discontinuation of millions of people/beings enduring immeasurable suffering?

 

[Dak]

Are you such a biased Utilitarian that you refuse to see that if every person on earth were to fall asleep forever that it would result in the discontinuation of millions of people enduring immeasurable suffering?

Um, I thought the death of billions was the telos of utilitarianism.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Um, no. It's just a cold result in which it has no control.

Just answer the question, let me rephrase it - Do you refuse to see that if every person on earth were to fall asleep forever that it would result in the discontinuation of millions of people enduring immeasurable suffering?

 

[Einherjar86]

Some serious projection and delusion going on there, and not because of suicidal ideations. Suicidal ideations are a normal response pattern to certain stimuli. Projecting that need onto everyone is problematic.

You know when Nick Land talks about horrorism? This is it. You're trying to psychologize something beyond the conscious human mind. There's no projection or delusion going on in Ligotti; only the approximation of a death that conditions and informs all the processes of life itself.

You often say that to abandon "the human" is suicide. Ligotti's text is an affirmation that this has, in a sense, already occurred.

 

[Dak]

Do you refuse to see that if every person on earth were to fall asleep forever that it would result in the discontinuation of millions of people enduring immeasurable suffering?

If everyone fell asleep, we can assume out of that everyone, some were suffering and would thus be spared. Yes. So?

You know when Nick Land talks about horrorism? This is it. You're trying to psychologize something beyond the conscious human mind. There's no projection or delusion going on in Ligotti; only the approximation of a death that conditions and informs all the processes of life itself.

You often say that to abandon "the human" is suicide. Ligotti's text is an affirmation that this has, in a sense, already occurred.

Horror is a psychological, subjective response. The beyond is not the response. An individual text can't do for one, much less all.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

If everyone fell asleep, we can assume out of that everyone, some were suffering and would thus be spared. Yes. So?

So no immense suffering is significantly better than some immense suffering. This, in my opinion, is the pessimist ideal.

 

[Einherjar86]

Horror is a psychological, subjective response. The beyond is not the response. An individual text can't do for one, much less all.

It can if all subjective responses of horror coalesce into an objective, or real, confirmation of the horrific object. Just because horror may originate in a subjective response does not mean it can't emerge at a higher, complex level as something objectively real.

Human thought, at its most radically liminal, will always find itself on the brink of horror; this is unconditional.

 

[Carpe Mortem]

To get the whining and bitching on track...

So fuckin sick of people assuming I'm one of those assholes who ONLY listens to metal. As someone who enjoys a great variety of music, someone who is capable of offering recommendations to pretty much anybody, no matter their preference, I take serious offense to it. I am a MUSIC fan. I just happen to, for instance, be on a METAL website because it is the bulk of my preferences.

Time for some non-metal murder music. That fuckin cunt. Listening to the most mainstream bands of every genre doesn't make you well-listened, it makes you a pretentious cunt, especially if you're gonna talk to me like that.

 

[-CC-]

I go from reading about STN's financial woes that might leave him homeless and most definitely vehicle-less, to reading about someone assuming Carpe only listens to metal. This thread certainly has its peaks and valleys.

 

[Carpe Mortem]

I must have missed that amidst all the fireside philosophy chats goin on in the last page. Sorry about that, STN. Hope it all works out.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Next time someone offends you by assuming you only listen to Metal music - calm down, have and glass of water and get a life.

 

[unknown]

Yeah, I hear ya. As long as their world ends that's all that matters but that's not really what I'm talking about.

Here's a quote from this dude Ligotti I've been reading thanks to True Detective writer Nic Pizzolatto that might help explain what I mean...

”

― Thomas Ligotti

you do realize Ligotti is my favorite author? This sounds like it's from The Conspiracy Against the Human Race

 

[Dak]

So no immense suffering is significantly better than some immense suffering. This, in my opinion, is the pessimist ideal.

A myopic viewpoint, but I can concede that someone thinks this way. I would also feel very sorry for them.

It can if all subjective responses of horror coalesce into an objective, or real, confirmation of the horrific object. Just because horror may originate in a subjective response does not mean it can't emerge at a higher, complex level as something objectively real.

Human thought, at its most radically liminal, will always find itself on the brink of horror; this is unconditional.

Once it is no longer the nameless beyond though, it no longer provides the horror. It must remain unrealized.

 

[Einherjar86]

That assumes that once something happens, it attains a name and classification.

And furthermore, if philosophical thought is thought that plumbs the depths, or the liminal boundaries of the human (knowledge as a means to deepen unknowing...) then it is always in contact with horror. This is the point of overlap between much contemporary philosophy and horror fiction.

There was a point in history when philosophy was heavily conditioned by positivistic/optimistic notions of knowledge and considered it an empowerment of the human. Many successful philosophers/scientists still feel this way.

Then there are those who realize that the absolute force of philosophy - philosophy at its most truly philosophical - toes, and potentially breaches, the analytic of human finitude.

I agree with Nick Land that there is an Outside, and that there will always be an Outside; and, furthermore, that it will always be infiltrating our phenomenal sphere. We are embedded in an existence of constant horror.

 

[Dak]

We are embedded in an existence of constant horror.

The everpresent specter of death, outside of Jimmy's pessimist, makes this practically a truism.

 

[Vimana]

I agree with Nick Land that there is an Outside, and that there will always be an Outside; and, furthermore, that it will always be infiltrating our phenomenal sphere. We are embedded in an existence of constant horror.

That makes no sense. You can't know that there will always be one unless you know all, in which case there is no "outside." You can say that there has always been one, but you can't say there always will be one anymore than you can say there won't be one. It's currently an unknown.

Yeah, I hear ya. As long as their world ends that's all that matters but that's not really what I'm talking about.

Here's a quote from this dude Ligotti I've been reading thanks to True Detective writer Nic Pizzolatto that might help explain what I mean...

“Also worthy of mention is a clique among the suicidal for whom the meaning of their act is a darker thing. Frustrated as perpetrators of an all-inclusive extermination, they would kill themselves only because killing it all is closed off to them. They hate having been delivered into a world only to be told, by and by, “This way to the abattoir, Ladies and Gentlemen.” They despise the conspiracy of Lies for Life almost as much as they despise themselves for being a party to it. If they could unmake the world by pushing a button, they would do so without a second thought. There is no satisfaction in a lonesome suicide. The phenomenon of “suicide euphoria” aside, there is only fear, bitterness, or depression beforehand, then the troublesomeness of the method, and nothingness afterward. But to push that button, to depopulate this earth and arrest its rotation as well—what satisfaction, as of a job prettily done. This would be for the good of all, for even those who know nothing about the conspiracy against the human race are among its injured parties.”

― Thomas Ligotti

As someone who has been suicidal and attempted suicide multiple times, I think this quote is full of shit. Just because you are in a dark place and you view the world as perpetual suffering and a path to a slaughterhouse, you can't say that that's reality and everyone else is just blind and needs your illumination. Emotions are not facts, but subjective interpretations of facts.

Declaring that the world is dark because one sees it that way is like a deer deciding humans can eat toxic plants just because they can eat them. The deer may think, "well, I can eat these plants, so humans who say they can't are just ignorant. I'll do them a favor and feed it to them," and then humans eat the plants and die when they could eat non-toxic plants and live.

I feel sorry for those who see the world as dark and horrible, especially since I've been in that place and tried to escape it by taking my own life, but I can't even put into words how horrible I find it to want to kill others, especially when one thinks they're doing others a favor. Yes, life has suffering. It's not like people who aren't depressed forget that fact. It's that people who are depressed forget that life has joy. It has more for some than for others, but that does not mean that joy is some illusion and suffering is reality. Both joy and suffering are reality and some get more of one than the other, and depending on the person, it's also about how one looks at life and acts that determines which they get more of.

 

[-CC-]

Dak and Ein, go back to your corner. Please don't force another 2 pages of arguing semantics.

 

[Krow]

They must argue foreeeeeeeeeeeeeeerveeeeeer. I was pretty sure I was going to die yesterday. Had a bad day at work, had to sit in traffic for over an hour on the way home because of road work, opened my car door and stepped in horse shit from 3 randomly roaming horses at my girlfriends. Then about six last night had a sudden stomach pain, maybe the worst pain I've ever had in my life and laid in the fetal position feeling like I needed to throw up for around 45 minutes, when it suddenly stopped. Right in the pit of my stomach... I could barely talk... Felt as if the room was spinning and started sweating. I've never had anything like that happen before and if it does again, I will surely be going to the ER.