USA vs Terrorists -

[Magrathean]

You probably are. I'm serious. Just don't go and forget that beauty is more important than happiness, ok?

 

[rahvin]

why is this thread suddenly a dawson's creek script? beautiful? happiness? are you out of your mind?

 

[marduk1507]

Yeah, but in a very beautiful way. So lets let him enjoy it while he can(talking about beauty in connection with atheism is quite weird though).

 

[rahvin]

(talking about beauty in connection with atheism is quite weird though).

i imagine it must be quite the shiny bauble of anti-conformism to the dull lure of organized religion. sadly, 99% of the academic world in italy is under the iron fist of enlightened anti-religious leaders who scoff at the smallest trace of sincere faith in society, so it's hard even for me - a convinced agnostic - to sympathize with the "beauty" of militant fanaticism.

it's also contradictory to separate oneself from forms of belief and then deny that beauty = material comfort and everyday, regular happiness. the kind of tormented, unsatisfied, forever-searching beauty he is (they are) referring to is a form of desire of transcendence, a vertical pull to escape the mundane. to let it live side-by-side with a profession of atheism is close to superstition. [edited for clarity] meaning that while you say you don't believe in the ideal, you clearly worship the idol.

 

[Magrathean]

No. God and beauty (notice how i didn't capitalize 'beauty') aren't even close to being related. I refuse to believe in any kind of god because i consider the idea to be completely absurd, but to live and not find at least some things beautiful is to waste one's life. By 'beautiful' i guess i mean, in a way, 'pleasing', but 'beautiful' and 'joy-bringing' are somehow not synonyms. To ask me to explain beauty is to ask of me a nigh-impossible task, but i could try: "beauty is a state of sublime perfection of something" (notice how i said "a state" and not "the state", which allows for several ways in which something may be perfect and thus beautiful). I disagree with rahvin in that seeking a twisted kind of beauty ("true" beauty, in my dictionary) equals believing in something equivalent to believing in one or more god(s). It merely means that i/we choose "beauty" over "happiness" and that we find such "beauty" in things that can be material or just ideas/thoughts.

I don't know if that made any sense, but i did my best to try to explain.

Oh, and just one thing, to clear up things: The reason why i'm an atheist is not anti-comformism (a.k.a. considering myself an "anarchist" and a "rebel", which in most, if not all, cases is only pose and superficiality); it is that i find the idea of a god absurd. In fact (and i don't want this to be misinterpreted; anyone may believe whatever they choose to / have been taught to, and i respect that), i believe the survival of such beliefs to this day to be a sign of human immaturity, egotism, fear and unadvancement (um.. being retrograde? I didn't find a better word than 'unadvancement').

 

[rahvin]

No. God and beauty (notice how i didn't capitalize 'beauty') aren't even close to being related.

i didn't say "god", so the rest of your reply doesn't apply.

 

[Magrathean]

Well, by implying that mine is not true atheism you actually implied i believed in some kind of deity / superior power / energy / whatever.

 

[rahvin]

Well, by implying that mine is not true atheism you actually implied i believed in some kind of deity / superior power / energy / whatever.

on the contrary, i'm implying you're slightly superstitious. because you have room in your opinions for some sort of metaphysical concepts while at the same time finding other such beliefs - which are identical in origin and structure to your own - immature. which i interpret as you not being in full control of what you think valid.

i wouldn't dispute a purely materialistic position, although i don't agree with it. i also don't think it's necessary to believe in god if you have an ideal of transcendental beauty. as out of character as it may sound, i do have an ideal of transcendental beauty. and i don't have faith in any god. however, the subjectiveness of an approach to the sublime - or better yet, what's beyond the threshold defined by it - is such that a religious believer (an informed, educated religious believer, of course. but i'm never referring to idiots in this conversation, as i don't think we disagree on their status) has simply chosen an approach i don't feel for to connect to the sublime. as far as it concerns me, it's not laughable except in the way some people laugh at things they feel threatened by.

 

[Magrathean]

Hmm... I don't quite agree, but i don't want to start a full-scale argument in which i will most likely eventually give up and be unable to back up or defend what i say (because, i figure, of what you said about not being in full control of what i think valid). I guess this is an area which i have to think about more before actually forming any opinions and starting arguments.

 

[Arsis4486]

interesting conversation.

I was raised Catholic but turned agnostic when I found that I could neither prove nor disprove God's existence.

Seemed to be the only logical choice.

 

[Magrathean]

Good choice.

 

[Nitronium Blood]

Can illegal immigrants from mexico be called terrorists? Because eventually they become Vatos.

 

[tunaman]

us vs. terrorists? mmmm...

i believe we could win if people would grow some fucking balls.

as far as iraq, i don't agree or disagree with the war, but we are over there now and the job has to be done. so many extreme leftist hippies over here are saying pull out now but what they don't realize the instability that would cause at this point. the situation in iraq has gotten better and the country is getting alot closer to having the ability to police and run itself. wether you agree with the war or not, the iraqi people are better off without frikin saddam in rule. i mean get real, saddam tested chemical weapons on his own citizens.

now if you all think that terrorists are only at war with america then go ahead and be my guest. but terrorits a.k.a. "fanatic muslims" are at war with whoever is not muslim. russia, spain, and the riots in france are all examples. i'm not saying america's govt. is not guilty of anything, but if it comes between me and them dying. i'll choose them. for god sake, these are extremists that would kill you right now while you read this on your computer. or would cut your daughters throat while they make you watch. people who believe that by killing americans they will be sent to the heavens and allah will provide them with 21 virgins. if that's not sick then what is. they need to be exterminated, and my govt. isn't doing a good job. homeland security here is a frinkin' joke.

and screw communism, i like free enterprise. it's better for people who work hard and like to suceed. but threre is a dark side. i am an honest business man, but there are some, mainly big buisness who step on others and use lawers to feed there greed. oh, and screw the oil companies. i love automotive recreation, but the oil companies have too much control over energy supplies in this country. and the ridiculous taxes that i pay at the pump for every gallon of gas go nowhere but in the hands of lazy state workers, funding for a ridiculous illegal alien driver's licence program(thank you arnold schwarzenegger), everything being converted to spanish, funding for more highway cops so they can hassle me, and welfare recipients instead of being spent on r&d for alternative energy sources. the world is far far from perfect, and so is the US, but i still love my country.

 

[marduk1507]

Hmm... I don't quite agree, but i don't want to start a full-scale argument in which i will most likely eventually give up and be unable to back up or defend what i say (because, i figure, of what you said about not being in full control of what i think valid). I guess this is an area which i have to think about more before actually forming any opinions and starting arguments.

Good choice.

 

[La Rocque]

Point of Parliamentary Procedure:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.

fact: back about 3 years ago before the US aggression in Iraq. W went before the US Congress and guaranteed them and the citizens of the USofA that military action would be over in a short time and the cost would be no more than 60 to 75 billion dollars. That's billions boys and girls. At that time W was going after WMD, as of today the US is there to stop terrorism. Back to the dollars, W now needs another 80 billion for his war this year which will bring the total to over 400 billion dollars. To pay for this W is starting to cut social programs.
It looks like civil war in Iraq will be starting soon.
@ W: What's the plan now Georgie? Choose sides? Fight against all sides? Or just watch a war within a war? ... It's a f'n quagmire.

This is for our Jewish and Muslim friends, in an interview for a Apostolic Christian magazine, W said ' he was chosen by God to bring Christianity to the Middle East'
and You thought it was all about terrorism -

 

[hyena]

the god/beauty/happiness debate - i concur with rahvin on the idea that cultivating ideals of transcendental beauty is structurally similar to believing in a supernatural entity. it is NOT similar in the consequences, if we think about most well-known supernatural entities (!), because gods tend to have purpose and willpower, while beauty normally does not. i think that's where the discussion got confused.

my current position on religion is that god is there no matter my inclinations, liking or dislikings, and sometimes he/they (you know, the holy trinity and all) put(s) people in impossible positions. tough shit, i say - i'm not god, otherwise i would probably change the rules. i also believe that i would probably change them for the worse. so i suffer in silence whenever god throws a curveball, which is normally done in very general terms, like setting rules of the physical universe that condition survival on discipline and organization.

 

[A Reason To Sing]

I don't want to start an arguement here and go Michael Moore on your ass, but there are big holes in your statements.

The stated reason from Bush is we are now there to fight terrorism .
Are we really? My first guess would have been oil, but terrorism is ok too

If the US is not fighting terrorism, why do we have a terror alert?
I'm sorry, but the "terror alert'' is a load of bullshit to me, and is just another way to instill fear in people. Even if their is a "high" terror alert, what good is it going to do to tell us? People take terror alert as seriously as tsunami alerts. Are you going to not going to take the subway to work because of a high terror alert? What does our country want us to do? Sit on the porch and shoot everyone who looks suspicious?

Why do we have the Patriot Act? Why are we in Afghanistan?
We are in Afghanistan to fight terrorism, you're right there. Only problem is, we've put about enough soldiers and provisions there to fight off harsh words.

Try to fly on airplane if your name is on a terrortist watch list.
Actually, I like this. Whenever my family and I go on vacation we get pulled aside and get searched seperately since my dad is from Iran. Easy going for us, we dont have any lines to wait in Now, do you honestly think if a terrorist wanted to blow up a building they would send a known comrade to do it?

What's the reason for a terrortist prison in Cuba?
It's been there for ages. It's just called a terrorist prison these days to go along with the rest of the act.


IM SORRY, RANT IS DONE. Friends?

Hey,my decendants are from Afghanistan.

It's all bullshit. Bush is a freaking moron, and many people know this. The people who don't know this...are probably those rednecks down south.

We aren't fighting terror. We are just depriving innocent people of their time, and their dignity.

This whole terroist, 911 shit seems bull. Damn, I want to play some loud metal songs and have many people listen to them. Songs that I think really bring out the faults in humanity, and songs that are really spiritual. Damn, I'd like to play My Negation SO LOUD RIGHT NOW. I am.

There's just a ton of shit in this world.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Hey,my decendants are from Afghanistan.

It's all bullshit. Bush is a freaking moron, and many people know this. The people who don't know this...are probably those rednecks down south.

We aren't fighting terror. We are just depriving innocent people of their time, and their dignity.

This whole terroist, 911 shit seems bull. Damn, I want to play some loud metal songs and have many people listen to them. Songs that I think really bring out the faults in humanity, and songs that are really spiritual. Damn, I'd like to play My Negation SO LOUD RIGHT NOW. I am.

There's just a ton of shit in this world.

agreed 100%.

Bush is a terrorist fighting other terrorists by bombing their respective countries, regardless of those places governments or populations affiliation or enmity with said terrorists.

Why is it that America thinks "terrorist" and Arab or Muslim are interchangeable? have we forgotten the Unibomber, the Sniper, and other terrorist incidents caused by American citizens?

Further, Bush's claim to being God's justice on Earth is not only a breach of the Constitutional law, but an insult to actual Christians everywhere. He tarnishes our name and tarnishes our country. But... he is not solely to blame. Those who foolishly elected him twice, and those who support him in the media with brainwashing the public through it, and those in power who stand by instead of stopping this trainwreck government, they are all also to blame.

 

[A Reason To Sing]

I believe that folks here should try to concentrate on where they are heading in life, and how many of you will reach your ambitions, and your plans. Politics, these people, blood to them all. The good ALWAYS blows the evil to hell. Always, once way or another, every son of a bitch politician, and every motherfucker who thinks it's right to kill a man for religion, or out of hatred...money, will get there message. Give hell to the people who deserve hell is what I say. Innocent people don't have to suffer.

 

[A Reason To Sing]

agreed 100%.

Bush is a terrorist fighting other terrorists by bombing their respective countries, regardless of those places governments or populations affiliation or enmity with said terrorists.

Why is it that America thinks "terrorist" and Arab or Muslim are interchangeable? have we forgotten the Unibomber, the Sniper, and other terrorist incidents caused by American citizens?

Further, Bush's claim to being God's justice on Earth is not only a breach of the Constitutional law, but an insult to actual Christians everywhere. He tarnishes our name and tarnishes our country. But... he is not solely to blame. Those who foolishly elected him twice, and those who support him in the media with brainwashing the public through it, and those in power who stand by instead of stopping this trainwreck government, they are all also to blame.

This is why I love my fellow metal heads.