Viking mythology and all that goes with it

[yllmar]

The real problem with nailing down ancient religions is the fact that the texts and learning materials were destroyed when Catholicism became the main, recognized religion in Europe. Memories and definitions of what was had been long erased by the time organized Christianity became splintered, and now there are a billion different religions in the world. One for each person.

You're never going to know what the "true white religion" was, because it has been completely erased from the record books.

 

[skinnywhiteboy]

I bet you do, especially since Johan H gave me them... The benefits of brothers are many. JW panzer PJs is just one of them! (Yep, I'm bragging. Wouldn't you if Johan was your brother?)

why yes, yes i would! maybe i shouldn't have beat up my bro so much when we were small...

 

[Celtik Militia]

ok sorry i should have talked about "indo europeans" instead of whites. but i don't think there is any relation with that really, many neo nazis just respect the culture of their ancestors hence they turn to the more ancient religion which is paganism and reject the freshly imported semite religion. thats all. there is no need to go further in the scientific facts or whatever, or weither they are right or wrong. and most white nationalists don't even know about Kossinna whoever he may be.

 

[yllmar]

ok sorry i should have talked about "indo europeans" instead of whites. but i don't think there is any relation with that really, many neo nazis just respect the culture of their ancestors hence they turn to the more ancient religion which is paganism and reject the freshly imported semite religion. thats all. there is no need to go further in the scientific facts or whatever, or weither they are right or wrong. and most white nationalists don't even know about Kossinna whoever he may be.

I see where you're coming from, and I agree with you.

 

[Tyra]

Yeah, I know what you're saying, Celtik. It was just that the question was asked in such a manner that the historical roots of it became pertinent to the discussion. I did not take offense to that, and it was an honest question that deserves an honest answer from more angles than one, anyhow.

I most certainly think that it galls some "whites" to belong to a religion that celebrates a jew (Jesus) and is called a "judeo-Christian" religion, which makes "the old religion" a natural choice for many, as it completely breaks with that tradition (and one can choose to embellish the warlike aspects of the gods, goddesses and the people and incite wanton violence). The KKK and many other supremacist groups are very, very staunch in their Christian beliefs, though, and use the Bible for the same purpose.

The prison thing is a whole another entity on its own. Then the religion comes as a way to organize a gang rather than a political movement. Either way, it's religion used for personal powertrips, rather than religion used to empower the god(s) by way of creating a personal relationship. Therein lies the problem, as that goes against basic asatru belief. If it didn't, we'd never have been converted in the first place. White supremacy is not good for Norsemans' trade (LOL).

 

[FlyingDragon]

Hi,
I have a total differnt question, but it concerns the mythology and so I thought it would fit in here, even if it does not fit into actual the discussion.
Are Hugin and Munin and also the eye of Odin some special symbols for something or just elements of the mythology.I know, that the two ravens are standing for thought and memory (at least I think they are standing for it.) But besides that, do they have any other meaning, like giving strength to the one that is carrying the symbol. You know, the typical things.
Just asking, because I think about buying a ring which includes these symbols.
Hope the question is understandable and thanks for answering, if possible.
CYA Dragon

 

[Tyra]

Well, I guess all that stuff is very personal to the wearer. Generally speaking, the ravens do symbolize Odin inspeciffically, as well as what you pointed out, thought and memory.
As for myself, I think of the ravens as a symbol for the faith as a whole. They have sort of become a "stealth Mjöllnir" in some parts of the world - if you want someone who is likeminded to know that you sympathise with the faith or just the old ways, but don't want all the questions at work and so on, a raven may be just the thing. I. e., we will know what it means, but it doesn't leave you open for questions or funny interpretations re your political stance from most average people, and no one will fire you from work. It's kind of like how some wiccans like to wear a trisquiera rather than a pentagram. Not a lot of people know what the triscle stands for, but it just looks pretty, whereas if you wear a pentacle you will get all sorts of looks.
But, as Freud would have put it, sometimes a ring is just a ring. In your case, it is exactly what you want it to be. If you want it to symbolize Odin, and you want to draw from his strength and protection, then you have to make that happen. Otherwise, it's just a ring with a raven on it.

 

[Triglav]

G'day people, I was just reading this thred (can't beleive I never saw the link to the forum on the amon amarth site till now) and a few questions about Norse mythology poped into my head, does anyone know exactly how powerfull the norns are? they weave the threds of life for the gods, so does this mean they are more powerfull then them? also does anyone know if they survive Ragnarok?
cheers

 

[Celtik Militia]

k Tyra, i know what you meant, its cool

G'day people, I was just reading this thred (can't beleive I never saw the link to the forum on the amon amarth site till now) and a few questions about Norse mythology poped into my head, does anyone know exactly how powerfull the norns are? they weave the threds of life for the gods, so does this mean they are more powerfull then them? also does anyone know if they survive Ragnarok?
cheers

well if i remember my lectures i recall something about how the gods are almost "afraid" of the norns because as you said, they do decide of their fate too. so in that sense they are more powerful, but not in any other way.. except perhaps in knowledge too, that goes without saying i guess.

also your question about weither or not they survive in Ragnarok is a good one that i couldnt answer. i've often thought about Ragnarok wondering who survives and where the dead (gods, einherjar and all) go. your question resembles the one i asked when i created this thread.
anyway sorry i don't know the answer but i'll wait eagerly for it.
my logic would say the Norns survived but i don't know. considering they decide the fate of all, they decided Ragnarok would happen. I can't imagine anyone deciding they'll die when they have such a power.

 

[Tyra]

G'day people, I was just reading this thred (can't beleive I never saw the link to the forum on the amon amarth site till now) and a few questions about Norse mythology poped into my head, does anyone know exactly how powerfull the norns are? they weave the threds of life for the gods, so does this mean they are more powerfull then them? also does anyone know if they survive Ragnarok?
cheers

Ooooooooh dear, what a question to come up with for a first post!!!! I think you've struck one of the touchiest subjects in modern day asatru. It is quite sumply one of those things that the asatru community is continuosly debating, and the debate is very heated to say the least ( including mudslinging, name calling, nidstangs, spells and all the nice things that Norse people do to eachother when they get angry).
To put the problem into some sort of frame, there are some that feel very strongly that nothing can be stronger than Odin. Then there is the opposing thought, who believe just what you said, that the Norns are, if not more, then at least equally powerful.
If you want my personal opinion, I can give it to you, but I don't know if it's relevant to you - I tend to look at things in a cultural context, and so I think that one cannot exist without the other. The mythology makes it very clear that there are supposed to be two genders, and that they must co-exist. Odin would not be as powerful if he didn't have the Valkyries, the Disir, the Norns and the goddesses. They in turn could not exist without the male gods. Everyone has a place and a purpose in Asgård, just as everyone in this word has a place and a purpose. If you remove one or the other, even Loki, the whole system collapses. To me, it is irrelevant who is the more powerful, as one could not exist without the other. That is why the Thing was run by the people for the people - nobody is any more special than anyone else, there is no almighty judge. If you can understand that concept (that everyone is equal, because each job is just as important for the whole society to function), you can understand how come many things in Scandianvia still work in that way to this day. The Havamal says to be all things in moderation (to be middle wise and so on), so obviously, Odin was well aware of this concept. He was also well aware of the power of those three ladies, but I think it is not a relationship based on fear, but rather of mutual respect.

Does that answer the question?

 

[Tyra]

i've often thought about Ragnarok wondering who survives and where the dead (gods, einherjar and all) go.

Again, depends on interpretation...
The gods that survive are Villi, Vidar and Vali, Modi and Magni. Baldr and Hödr rise from Hel. Hönir (now, some call him Villi, and say that Hönir and Villi are the same god, because it is only in the Poetic Edda that he is called Villi) is the one that survives that can foretell what is to come - I think he takes the Norns place, but that is just my interpretation of things. Some think that Frigga and Freya survie, too, but that is unlcear. Of the humans, only Lif and Lifthrasir survive. Their descendants will inhabit Midgard.

As for where the dead go, the Prose Edda is very specific, but both Eddas give names for where the dead will live after Ragnarök. The Gods, of course, will live in peace in Gimli.

 

[MORGAVID]

http://burzum.org/eng/library/a_burzum_story05.shtml


From the true words of Varg himself...it explains some issues posted in this thread about satanism and how it was created by christians to condem paganism...also answering quiestions about pentarams

 

[TheSilentGod]

ok i got a question...

When the fire and ice met in the emptiness (i wont even attempt the whole names) does the fire melt the ice into the shape of Ymir or is he formed by the eitr or whatever. and if its the latter how is the eitr formed?

 

[Tyra]

It depends a bit on which source you take it from. In the Prose Edda (I think, I don't have the text in front of me just now), it says that Ymir was created out of the hoarfrost when ice met fire in Ginnungagap. A cow, Audhumbla, is also created from the frost. Ymer feeds on her milk, and when she licks the salty rocks that the ice had squeezed forth, she creates a man, Bure. Bure begets Borr, who has three sons by Bestla (a giantess):Odin, Vile and Ve. The three of them slay Ymer and create the word out of his body, and also the first people (Ask and Embla).

Is that what you meant with your question?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the giants were created from Ymer's body before Bure was created.

 

[Triglav]

Thanks for the answers Tyra and Celtik Milita. My curiosity has been satisfied. I guess its more of a personal perspective thing these days, I'd like to think they survive. I don't know why I find them so fascinating, must be the mystery and power.

 

[Tyra]

Happy to be of service!
If you're really curious, you can find the Prose Edda and such texts for free on line. You can read all about this kind of stuff there (I say Prose Edda because it's reasonably easy to understand and quite short), and then you can make up your own mind. The Havamal is probably the most telling text, and it's very short and easy to find on the net.

 

[TheSilentGod]

It depends a bit on which source you take it from. In the Prose Edda (I think, I don't have the text in front of me just now), it says that Ymir was created out of the hoarfrost when ice met fire in Ginnungagap. A cow, Audhumbla, is also created from the frost. Ymer feeds on her milk, and when she licks the salty rocks that the ice had squeezed forth, she creates a man, Bure. Bure begets Borr, who has three sons by Bestla (a giantess):Odin, Vile and Ve. The three of them slay Ymer and create the word out of his body, and also the first people (Ask and Embla).

Is that what you meant with your question?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the giants were created from Ymer's body before Bure was created.

ok thanks i was just confused because i also read something about eitr or something.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

And there it is, exactly what I said above, when in all actuality astru is not really any "truer" of a "white people religion" than any other. It did not originate in Schleswig-Holstein any more than Christianity did. That is, however, what Kossinna stated. Those who really believe in what he said, are clearly not basing their ideas on actual historical events or actual current research. Religion is more often than not NOT based on historical fact, but politics really ought to be.

This is a good example of where religion has been used to promote a political movement. You cannot, in this day and age, in any way, shape or form find any shred of scholarly support for asatru being a pure white people religion that grew out of purely germanic values, and that has nothing to do with the religion being tainted with any political message. It has to do with the part where we now know more because more research has been done since Kossinna's days. The true "white people religion" could maybe possibly be said to have existed before Europe became "Indo-Europeanized", but not even then, as far back as into the mesolithic era, did it (i.e. the earlier white people religion) exist in a vaccuum.
The word Aryan should be taken as meaning Indo-European. Aryans were and are not white people (well, at least not what I think most people think of when they say "white" in a political sense - here we mostly call East Indians "East Indians", Iranians "Arabs" , Turks...well...that depends on where you live, but I am not going to list all the people who are actually Aryans but are not officially "white" here...), so if you call asatru a pure, aryan religion, you still have a bit of a problem explaining that away. That is not even up for dispute any more, as we now have a wonderful thing called DNA testing. Unless you really choose to shove your head up your ass, of course, but then you can believe whatever you can dream up. IMHO.

The way I understand it: an Indo-European tribe travels eastwards, creating empires as they go along. One in Persia in the area which today is named after what these people were called: Iran/Arya (cnf. Greek aristos, as in "aristocracy") and another empire in India. This tribe would have then become the ruling class/nobility/higher castes in their newly founded empires, naturally.

 

[Tyra]

Extremely debatable (like I said, I just wrote well over 40 pages on it, and that covers only two theories on the subject), but the majority would agree, that yes, the origin is somewhere in the East. Exactly where and when is still very much an open question.

 

[DragonKeeper]

The way I understand it: an Indo-European tribe travels eastwards, creating empires as they go along. One in Persia in the area which today is named after what these people were called: Iran/Arya (cnf. Greek aristos, as in "aristocracy") and another empire in India. This tribe would have then become the ruling class/nobility/higher castes in their newly founded empires, naturally.

ya, the aryan invasions of india...aka the vedic culture. but they did not last long really. they occupied the higher castes and actually veda meant color in sanscrit, so perhaps it was based on skin color, i am not entirely sure. the aryans were lighter skinned than the indigineous peoples of india and as conqueres, they naturally thought they were supperior. the aryans were a tribe with a strong warrior culture that came from the central asian steppes, but were indo-european speakers. apparently sanscrit came from them also. some supposidly went west, but who knows. i've noticed some similarities between some of the ancient celtic tribes and the aryans, but there may not be a connection at all.

speaking of the edda, the movie "the dark kingdom: the dragon king" is quite good. its based on the volsunga saga and sigurd the volsung, but he is siegfried in the movie. the storyline is simpler and characters such as odin are not present, but its not a bad addaptation.