Did Christianity spread quickly through the "Viking Homelands" or was it like Sweden and happen slowly?
Viking mythology and all that goes with it
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Did Christianity spread quickly through the "Viking Homelands" or was it like Sweden and happen slowly?
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
If i refer to my notes in middle age class - it was in the Carolingian empire and concerned the german empire too, but i think it can be applied to scandinavia or at least the newly fully converted territories - by the end of 11th century, the Church realized that, in addition to the non clerical people obtaining clerical positions, christianity was more often then not a facade : paganism still existed and was still practised by the common people (dead-born children buried immediately with a stake in its body, people buried with coins in payment to Charron, beliefs in sorcery, etc) Therefor, Church try to figure out what is being christian ? since people attend mass religiously, and do all those little details required and STILL have these paganism beliefs in the same time, they can only but conclude that their faith is superficial. ( wouldnt it be that-in the first generations at least- when christianity installed itself in Scandinavia, the kings and jarls and chiefs etc accepted to be baptized offhandedly to gain what territory/power/riches they could have at that sole condition carolingian kings offered : becoming christian. At least, that was the condition for Rollon to gain Normandy, and although he became openly, it is said he kept his pagan beliefs closely to himself. Like becoming christian was the unpleasant disavantage of a greater benefit. Others might have accepted it freely and with arms open, but if the Church figured that the populace was still deeply pagan, i think theres more ppl from the first case than the second.)
And so Church striked back with the Gregorian reform supposed to stop feudal system in taking over church controls and politics, supposed to reform the faith itself to eliminate paganism by fixing the believes, the values and the pratiques. As Tyra says, it was all progressive since scandinavia was/is very wide and some places resisted i think (Hammerfest? i reckon the song the AA Annihilation Of Hammerfest cant be real but the first verse
"All is lost and foreign kings
Rule the northern realms
Hammerfest, the last outpost
Has fallen to unbearded men"
could be historical, cant it? Hammerfest is one of the northern village/city, therefore it being the last outpost seems quite logical to me!
Anyway, ill stop here...
And so Church striked back with the Gregorian reform supposed to stop feudal system in taking over church controls and politics, supposed to reform the faith itself to eliminate paganism by fixing the believes, the values and the pratiques. As Tyra says, it was all progressive since scandinavia was/is very wide and some places resisted i think (Hammerfest? i reckon the song the AA Annihilation Of Hammerfest cant be real but the first verse
"All is lost and foreign kings
Rule the northern realms
Hammerfest, the last outpost
Has fallen to unbearded men"
could be historical, cant it? Hammerfest is one of the northern village/city, therefore it being the last outpost seems quite logical to me!
Anyway, ill stop here...
False Joe
Who cares.
Is there any good, enjoyable read about this topic?
Interested by it, not as to change my religion and actually believe that there is an Oden etc, but just to find out about it.
Interested by it, not as to change my religion and actually believe that there is an Oden etc, but just to find out about it.
Tyra
Member
The best book out there, IMHO, is Sawyer's The Oxford Illustrated History of the Vikings. Contrary to what the title will have you think, it is not a coffe table type book, but a very good book to which vary many scholars have contributed chapters in their areas of expertise. It has a good section on the conversion and on political ideas etc.
Tyra
Member
In some areas it was reasonably quick, but in some, painfully slow. Some areas went back and forth, back and forth, for a really long time (see Heimskringla with the whole Earl Haakon deal, or Harald Bluetooth, who "converted all of Denmark" then left the country to his son, a blazing heathen), and some were officially Christian but allowed the worship of the heathen gods according to heathen rituals for a period of time (as in Iceland). The stronger the position of the lord that wanted to become king, the quicker the conversion. In outlying areas, ideas like this are slow to gain foothold, as it still to this day is very far between households. People must be able to rely on themselves there. Then they don't need to listen to what some lord has to say or bow to his will, and it is much easier on these people to be part of a religion that does not require one to show up on a set day at a set place on a set time (church on Sunday) to be accepted, but where each person is responsible for his own religious life on his own time. In the beginning, these people had to travel a looooong ways to go to church (they still do in some places) and pay taxes etc for benefits they did not receive on account of being too far out in the countryside. That's where the Old Tradition stayed strongest.
Is the Old Tradition still strong in those areas? Or is Christianity the practiced religion now?
Thanks for being so willing to answer all my questions.
Runesinger
Member
My grandfather was from Lillehammer, way up in the mountains of Norway, and the traditions stayed alive in some families in Lillehammer. They were kind of the rebels in Norway, not like the ol' stuffy Lutherans down in Oslo.
Phelice
HAPPIEST GIRL ON EARTH!!!
Yeah this is my thread (I just claimed it, it belongs to me now 
)
Haven't read it all yet but i will do.
I have a question I have to post right now:
What do you guys think why Odin didn't kick Loki?? I know He liked him much, but didn't He see what he was doing? I know He said everybody is welcome to Asgard who seeks sanctuary... but Loki messed everything up!
Btw: I bought the Edda as eBook and take it with me on my mp3-player everywhere I go, I can only recommend that, it gives it new views on it
OK, I will now read the whole thread, I promise! Will be back later
)Haven't read it all yet but i will do.
I have a question I have to post right now:
What do you guys think why Odin didn't kick Loki?? I know He liked him much, but didn't He see what he was doing? I know He said everybody is welcome to Asgard who seeks sanctuary... but Loki messed everything up!
Btw: I bought the Edda as eBook and take it with me on my mp3-player everywhere I go, I can only recommend that, it gives it new views on it
OK, I will now read the whole thread, I promise! Will be back later
Tyra
Member
Well, in Sweden I think it's about even between cities and the countyside. I'm not sure I know the full answer to that, as things have changed considerably since I left 20 years ago, especially since the church separated from the state. I know for sure I can't speak to the situation in the other Nordic countries. Norway, for example, has always been more firmly Christian than Sweden, and Iceland has always been more open about its heathen heritage. I really can't say since it's been so long since I have been to Norway.
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Yeah this is my thread (I just claimed it, it belongs to me now
Haven't read it all yet but i will do.
I have a question I have to post right now:
What do you guys think why Odin didn't kick Loki?? I know He liked him much, but didn't He see what he was doing? I know He said everybody is welcome to Asgard who seeks sanctuary... but Loki messed everything up!
Btw: I bought the Edda as eBook and take it with me on my mp3-player everywhere I go, I can only recommend that, it gives it new views on it
OK, I will now read the whole thread, I promise! Will be back later
Loki did much harm, but also much good. His role seems to me to be the cat's paw of fate, as most of his actions seem to have far-reaching repercussions that none but the Norns could foresee. Without going too deeply in Bates' Metaphysics, I believe the Allfather had some inkling of what would come of it, but accepted that what will be, will be. One may fight against fate, and there is often much glory and renown to be had in that fight, but one cannot simply avoid it by shutting the door.
Phelice
HAPPIEST GIRL ON EARTH!!!
He did not want to accept that He will come to death by the Fenris. He argued with the Norns, if He can fight off his destiny by killing him, if I remember correctly.
Anyway: This thread is loooong
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
How i understand the depht of this mythology and its bottom line is : you cant fight against your fate, might as well accept it, whatever it is. Theres but one certainty and its death, go to your death without fear -better- greet it (dont be a fool though...) when its your time and youll be remembered with high regards. As Bates said, Loke brought as much bad things as good things; personnaly i see him like the triggerer for advancement.
Phelice
HAPPIEST GIRL ON EARTH!!!
And one of the good things he brought is what you mentioned about how to see death... you convinced me, maybe he was not such an useless guy after all 
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
Phelice as Bates said, Loki was helpfull and unhelpfull...
His cunning and cleverness saved the Aesirs many times.
Also, Odin doesn't want to kill Loki because they are blood brothers and he's an Aesir, and there is a rule against spilling an Aesir's blood in Asgard.
Loki was "ok" at first... but slowly he started causing more and more trouble. He ended up being more or less disliked by the gods but not enough to be killed. And its only once the gods realised how mischievous Loki truly is, after the death of Balder and at the banquet where he insults all the gods, that they finally decide to put him down for good untill Ragnarok.
His cunning and cleverness saved the Aesirs many times.
Also, Odin doesn't want to kill Loki because they are blood brothers and he's an Aesir, and there is a rule against spilling an Aesir's blood in Asgard.
Loki was "ok" at first... but slowly he started causing more and more trouble. He ended up being more or less disliked by the gods but not enough to be killed. And its only once the gods realised how mischievous Loki truly is, after the death of Balder and at the banquet where he insults all the gods, that they finally decide to put him down for good untill Ragnarok.
Phelice
HAPPIEST GIRL ON EARTH!!!
Oh thanks, I really should have read the whole thread, mea culpa. That would have put some things into a clearer light to me earlier.
Yes and I do also have to admit that I actually still know very few, although I spend much time reading and thinking about the Edda.
But isn't it great to know there is always something more you can learn and think about?
Yes and I do also have to admit that I actually still know very few, although I spend much time reading and thinking about the Edda.
But isn't it great to know there is always something more you can learn and think about?
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Learning is the one thing that never fails a man (or woman). There's always more to be learned, and you are always capable of doing so. Of course, some people have to learn everything the hard way, but they still learn.
Phelice
HAPPIEST GIRL ON EARTH!!!
Yeah, but the hard way is the most memorable one, see other thread
Anyway, I like learning. And thinking -> discussing things that would not even have crossed my mind before I joined this forum. I think I will like it here.
Anyway, I like learning. And thinking -> discussing things that would not even have crossed my mind before I joined this forum. I think I will like it here.
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
Welcome
but as a warning, do what you want with it. you seem to really love the Edda, and i agree it really is a great book, but from a historian (wouldbe in my case but im getting there and many said it already) point of view, since the Edda has been written about 2 centuries AFTER the viking era (800-1100) in a catholic socio-cultural context with possible if not mandatory political, religious goals, be careful not to take everything for ultimate truth. Other than that, it is a very enjoyable book, and its great that, out of it, you question yourself and such. in my book, thats advancement.
but as a warning, do what you want with it. you seem to really love the Edda, and i agree it really is a great book, but from a historian (wouldbe in my case but im getting there and many said it already) point of view, since the Edda has been written about 2 centuries AFTER the viking era (800-1100) in a catholic socio-cultural context with possible if not mandatory political, religious goals, be careful not to take everything for ultimate truth. Other than that, it is a very enjoyable book, and its great that, out of it, you question yourself and such. in my book, thats advancement.
